Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[viper154]

On 2/7/2025 at 3:00 PM, NoFlyZone said:

I guess its kinda already been brought up but will studs be formally competing during IPT? If so how will the AF be able to quality control the grading? Seems like regardless the UPT T-6 syllabus will become even more important to assess studs even though its being condensed...

For now they are not in IPT.  It’s a pass/fail just like IFS/IFT was. Except they take FAA checkrides with a DPE to get their ratings.  Once at the UPT base flying the T-6 it’s similar to how’s it’s always been, except the mass will not only affect your track, but also your MWS/location if not going 38s. 

[reloder]

All of this seems so unnecessary. What was wrong with the old T-41/T-37/T-38 way of doing things?

[Clark Griswold]

All of this seems so unnecessary. What was wrong with the old T-41/T-37/T-38 way of doing things?

Nothing, it’s just the leadership of the AF thinks they can min run this enterprise and get away with it
We can not have the AF we say want with the resources Congress allocates, missions we are legally required to OT&E for with the way we operate now
Something has to give or more money and the freedom to execute that money in the best way possible for the needs of the AF vs the needs of X defense prime or Congressmen or pilot hating shoe clerk


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[WheelsOff]

I’ve been out of the AETC IP game a few years now. Sad to read it’s only gotten worse. But for those who are new around here and don’t know the history…it began when Kwast and Wills forcefully gang-banged the UPT enterprise into a training program that has set us on a course to become a 3rd-rate Air Force for decades to come. 

Don’t know what Kwast is doing in his retirement, but Wills was just appointed senior VP at HTX Labs, which—you guessed it—oversees VR training/tech for military training applications. 

[O Face]

19 minutes ago, WheelsOff said:

I’ve been out of the AETC IP game a few years now. Sad to read it’s only gotten worse. But for those who are new around here and don’t know the history…it began when Kwast and Wills forcefully gang-banged the UPT enterprise into a training program that has set us on a course to become a 3rd-rate Air Force for decades to come. 

Don’t know what Kwast is doing in his retirement, but Wills was just appointed senior VP at HTX Labs, which—you guessed it—oversees VR training/tech for military training applications. 

Unbelievably sad. We had the greatest flight school the world has ever seen…. “Let’s fuck it all up!!!”

[Inertia17]

4 hours ago, viper154 said:

Once at the UPT base flying the T-6 it’s similar to how’s it’s always been, except the mass will not only affect your track, but also your MWS/location if not going 38s. 

Until the T-6 goes away...

That's going to be a big jump to make.

[HuggyU2]

14 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

 

Don’t know what Kwast is doing in his retirement...

https://www.spacebilt.com/

[Clark Griswold]

So the AF says it needs to make more pilots and more fighter pilots specifically, but there is a delay(s) in the delivery of the T-7 and backup in the slots to FTUs for fighters as a whole, then this is a justification (IMO) for a dual acquisition of a advanced high performance trainer/light fighter.

Buy 200 of an available advanced trainer/light fighter, switch them out for A-10s as Wings lose jets and establish dual programs.  Light fighter with units identified as specializing in attack but not limited to that mission set and a short assignment program for fighter track graduates to go to while awaiting their assignment they were assigned at UPT graduation.  There’s 140 A-10s in the ARC, 200 light fighters should not cost more than that tab or cost less.

Retain experience, transmit that knowledge to young pilots, keep flying.

 

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

There’s 140 A-10s in the ARC,

How about everyone starts in an A-10?  Slow, multi engine and can probably do enough clover leaves and aileron rolls for the new guys to get a quarter chub.  The transition to heavies or fighters after flying an A-10 should be a little easier than not flying at all. 

Edited February 9 by Biff_T
I proofread after I post

[Clark Griswold]

How about everyone starts in an A-10?  Slow, multi engine and can probably do enough clover leaves and aileron rolls for the new guys to get a quarter chub.  The transition to heavies or fighters after flying an A-10 should be a little easier than not flying at all. 

If only…
The problem is the Bobs, limited money and using one airplane to do to missions
A T-X / A-X would not have the larger costs, DMS problems and likely skepticism of Congress methinks
Is it 1500 pilots a year we need, 1100 fighter pilots we need or both?
Then get to it, use the infrastructure and people you have but shift their missions to meet the need you have

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[mp5g]

It’s so easy guys:

Why don’t we just give UPT over to DOGE? Surely Elon can right this ship. 

/s

[SurelySerious]

It’s so easy guys:

Why don’t we just give UPT over to DOGE? Surely Elon can right this ship. 


/s

Actually, he doesn’t think we need pilots because everything can be done with autonomous drones and therefore pilot production can be zero by cancelling the program altogether, so you don’t even need the /s there. Boom, money saved.

[Clark Griswold]

Actually, he doesn’t think we need pilots because everything can be done with autonomous drones and therefore pilot production can be zero by cancelling the program altogether, so you don’t even need the /s there. Boom, money saved.

I fear this idea is ascendant


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[Lord Ratner]

15 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

I fear this idea is ascendant


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The idea is logical. Has been for years. The technology is what's ascendant. The writing has been on the wall since the DARPA Grand Challenge over 20 years ago. The United States should be running head first into autonomous war machines with the explicit goal of putting human pilots out of the job. 

 

In the meantime, until that technology is matured, we should be training the world's most competent and lethal military pilots. It seems like on one side we have pilot-leaders who will throw a wrench in anything that threatens their identity as a pilot, and on the other hand we have technologist-visionaries who are willing to diminish the capabilities of human pilots in an attempt to justify their robot weapons before they are up to snuff.

 

Both are pretty gross, and both will get people killed unnecessarily.

[brabus]

Elon’s not wrong, he’s just about 20-30 years off a realistic timeline (unless our entire acquisitions process massively changes, doubtful). 

[boba1024]

On 2/4/2025 at 7:55 PM, DirkDiggler said:

The AF, in their infinite wisdom, split the contract to maintain the T-6 in two, one for actual MX on the jets and one for the parts sustainment/sourcing.  Once the health of the fleet started to decline, it didn't take long for the two companies involved to point the finger at each other when they couldn't make their contract metrics.  As LookieRookie mentioned above, the fleet has a pretty serious DMS problem (which is kinda wild given that the aircraft themselves just aren't that old) that is having a huge impact on tail availability.  My buddy at 5/8 told me all the UPT bases are suffering, but CBM is in the wort shape.  They have about 90 something T-6s and on any given day only a third are flyable.

A third is a very optimistic statement. It’s been around 20 for many many weeks. A week or two ago, MX here at CBM produced less than 15 T-6s. And nothing has been done to fix the issue. Oh and for some reasons, AETC/19th AF thought it’s a good idea to do the IPT SGTO classes at CBM, the base with the worst MX issue. Now a ton of legacy T-6 students here have been waiting to hit the flight line because SGTO is the priority. Even legacy T-6 students who are on the flight line are now grounded so SGTO classes can fly and graduate “on time”. Morale has been extremely low among the students. CBM is just a complete dumpster fire at the moment and I wonder if AETC or 19th AF is even doing anything or actually knows what’s going on here.

[Clark Griswold]

The idea is logical. Has been for years. The technology is what's ascendant. The writing has been on the wall since the DARPA Grand Challenge over 20 years ago. The United States should be running head first into autonomous war machines with the explicit goal of putting human pilots out of the job. 
 
In the meantime, until that technology is matured, we should be training the world's most competent and lethal military pilots. It seems like on one side we have pilot-leaders who will throw a wrench in anything that threatens their identity as a pilot, and on the other hand we have technologist-visionaries who are willing to diminish the capabilities of human pilots in an attempt to justify their robot weapons before they are up to snuff.
 
Both are pretty gross, and both will get people killed unnecessarily.

IDK, it seems we have a fair amount of GOs that were educated in the old system we pine and argue for but undercut the requirement of pilot training and effort it takes to train a mil pilot by pushing this Next UPT or UPT 2.0 that minimizes actual training and frankly denigrates the heavy / crew side of the LAF… going to fly heavies? Well, it’s not really that big of a deal so let’s just min run your training and call it good… some of these guys, a lot of them flew heavies and from my point of view they’re cuckholes watching our career path get banged away while in the corner whimpering it’s ok because…. grow some balls and just say no to being made a second class pilot track in fact and in the eyes of your peers
This is incredible tech and it will supplant some of the human in the loop but not all, I mean the people who make the technology and sell the technology are also the people saying we need to run head long into it seems conflicted but as with BVR missiles, the first generation of that tech was way overhyped and not ready to fully commit to, we learned that in Vietnam the hard way, I argue for us to be not skeptical but require several steps of empirical proof and experience before we go that route even half way, the best hedge is to improve our processes and current tech while prudently investing in the new…

My hope is that someone at the level that could stop this direct flight to shittsville training would put their reputation on the line and say the emperor actually has no clothes on


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[Clark Griswold]

One more thing, if they actually gave a shit and we’re publicly embarrassed and exposed for this they could easily shit out the money and get something quickly done like Project Liberty
Say whatever about that but the fact they could quickly get 50+ aircraft and cycle XX aircrew thru and get moving is just further proof that the AF needs to be taken to the wood shed


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[LookieRookie]

On 2/10/2025 at 1:23 PM, boba1024 said:

A third is a very optimistic statement. It’s been around 20 for many many weeks. A week or two ago, MX here at CBM produced less than 15 T-6s. And nothing has been done to fix the issue. Oh and for some reasons, AETC/19th AF thought it’s a good idea to do the IPT SGTO classes at CBM, the base with the worst MX issue. Now a ton of legacy T-6 students here have been waiting to hit the flight line because SGTO is the priority. Even legacy T-6 students who are on the flight line are now grounded so SGTO classes can fly and graduate “on time”. Morale has been extremely low among the students. CBM is just a complete dumpster fire at the moment and I wonder if AETC or 19th AF is even doing anything or actually knows what’s going on here.

It’s your leadership trying to gobble it all up/you have IFF there

[boba1024]

5 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

It’s your leadership trying to gobble it all up/you have IFF there

Oh well…and not surprised at all. They care more about the next promotion than all the students who get loyally screwed. But how come 19th AF or AETC just turns a blind eye to this? I am sure they are seeing the live data of how terrible the production rate has been at Columbus. Yet nothing is being done after months. 

[Biff_T]

9 hours ago, boba1024 said:

But how come 19th AF or AETC just turns a blind eye to this?

Gig lines

[LookieRookie]

12 hours ago, boba1024 said:

Oh well…and not surprised at all. They care more about the next promotion than all the students who get loyally screwed. But how come 19th AF or AETC just turns a blind eye to this? I am sure they are seeing the live data of how terrible the production rate has been at Columbus. Yet nothing is being done after months. 

All of the bases suck. And the studs are already there.

 

A5/8 needs to make the data confirm their idea works

[boba1024]

40 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

All of the bases suck. And the studs are already there.

 

A5/8 needs to make the data confirm their idea works

they have already sent three or four IPT classes of students to civilian flight schools. This seems to be official now. Not sure why they still need to confirm the idea works when it’s being fully implemented. 

[raimius]

2 hours ago, boba1024 said:

they have already sent three or four IPT classes of students to civilian flight schools. This seems to be official now. Not sure why they still need to confirm the idea works when it’s being fully implemented. 

Because if the "idea works" should not be measured on whether we can pay LTS to fly at civilian schools, but by whether that actually produces pilots to acceptable AF standards. (Press X to doubt)

[boba1024]

4 hours ago, raimius said:

Because if the "idea works" should not be measured on whether we can pay LTS to fly at civilian schools, but by whether that actually produces pilots to acceptable AF standards. (Press X to doubt)

I mean that makes sense. But the point is they have already sent a lot more people out to civilian flight schools and these people will be back flying T-6 in a few months regardless whether the SGTO students can perform up to AF standards. Like are they going to stop the program and recall all those students at Arizona or Texas if 25 or 30% of the SGTO class get CR’ed? Absolutely not. 
 

And the reality is most students in the SGTO classes suck. They didn’t learn much airmanship at flight schools because all those CFIs are just trying to build time for the airlines instead of teaching. But we all know that these kids will get pushed through one way or another because we can’t go back to the generals and tell them they are stupid