Mid-Air Collision in DC

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

DEI is horrible and needs to be destroyed, BUT it almost certainly has zero to do with last night. But, that hasn’t stopped millions of people (president on down) from declaring DEI as causal. It’s really sad because those people are showing their ignorance/clinging attachment to a politicized topic, but equally sad that the progressive left has created such a massive problem that many people just now assume that’s the cause. Bad all around.  

 

 

The Pro age 67 FB group had a post this morning with the following quote.

 

This accident on short final at DCA has inexperience written all over it.  Please get out there and push for an EXECUTIVE ORDER to RAISE THE AGE IMMEDIATELY.  We, the airline industry, are directly responsible for these deaths.

 

There is no depth too low for which these guys will stoop, all in the name of getting theirs.  Sadly he's one of us at DAL but is scheduled to retire in March.  It can't get here soon enough.  WTF is wrong with some people.  

Edited Thursday at 07:25 PM by SocialD

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

It’s not bordering vulgar, it is vulgar. These poor souls haven’t even been dead 24 hours yet and this is the topic he wants to bring up in a presser discussing the accident?

Sounds a lot of like when the left blames the right, gun manufacturers, lack of gun control, etc after a shooting before the bodies are cold.  They sadly both do it and it’s all bad IMO, so I definitely agree with you that this specific one is bad on Trump.  This is the sickness of our politics.

[GrndPndr]

Wonder how many are thinking the -60 crew was unaware the CRJ was going to turn to the NW in front of them?

[nunya]

Any helo bubbas have insight into the max altitudes on Rt 4? Looks like the chart calls for 200' coordination?

Edited Thursday at 08:07 PM by nunya

[Lawman]

Any helo bubbas have insight into the max altitudes on Rt 4? Looks like the chart calls for 200' coordination?

They are.

The reports so far the 60 appeared to be well above that.


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[ClearedHot]

Note that Route 4 runs the east side of the river and right through final for 33...as others have noted circling to 33 at night adds another level of deconfliction.

[HeloHawk]

Anecdotal, but I've been in a 150' hover over Haines pt due to circling traffic to 33.  In my case I was directed by tower to do so and it was daytime.

Also anecdotal, but when I was flying in the NCR we were directed to fly as high as the R&Z chart allowed due to never ending noise complaints.

[Smokin]

2 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

 

The Pro age 67 FB group had a post this morning with the following quote.

 

This accident on short final at DCA has inexperience written all over it.  Please get out there and push for an EXECUTIVE ORDER to RAISE THE AGE IMMEDIATELY.  We, the airline industry, are directly responsible for these deaths.

 

There is no depth too low for which these guys will stoop, all in the name of getting theirs.  Sadly he's one of us at DAL but is scheduled to retire in March.  It can't get here soon enough.  WTF is wrong with some people.  

Completely absurd.  Inexperience on the airliner caused this?  I haven't heard anything to put blame on the airliner yet.  Maybe they might have seen it and gone around, but if that's the argument then it's even more absurd as young people generally have better eyesight, so maybe we should lower the retirement age again... 

[uhhello]

This will continue happening when all our controllers are dwarfs

[Blue]

From Reddit: Army Aviation leadership killed 67 people today

Text copied below.

Quote

 

Army Aviation leadership killed 67 people today

I am an active duty United States Army instructor pilot, CW3, in a Combat Aviation Brigade. The Army, not the crew, is most likely entirely responsible for the crash in Washington DC that killed 64 civilians, plus the crew of the H60 and it will happen again.

For decades, Army pilots have complained about our poor training and being pulled in several directions to do every other job but flying, all while our friends died for lack of training and experience.

That pilot flying near your United flight? He has flown fewer than 80 hours in the last year because he doesn’t even make his minimums. He rarely studied because he is too busy working on things entirely unrelated to flying for 50 hours per work week.

When we were only killing each other via our mistakes, no one really cared, including us. Army leadership is fine with air crews dying and attempts to solve the issue by asking more out of us (longer obligations) while taking away pay and education benefits.

You better care now, after our poor skill has resulted in a downed airliner and 64 deaths. This will not be the last time. We will cause more accidents and kill more innocent people.

For those careerist CW4, CW5, and O6+ about to angrily type out that I am a Russian or Chinese troll, you’re a fool. I want you to be mad about the state of Army aviation and call for it to be fixed. We are an amateur flying force. We are incompetent and dangerous, we know it, and we will not fix it on our own. We need to be better to fight and win our nation’s wars, not kill our own citizens.

If you don’t want your loved ones to be in the next plane we take down, you need to contact your Congressman and demand better training and more focus on flying for our pilots. Lives depend on it and you can be sure the Army isn’t going to fix itself.

 

 

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, Smokin said:

Completely absurd.  Inexperience on the airliner caused this?  I haven't heard anything to put blame on the airliner yet.  Maybe they might have seen it and gone around, but if that's the argument then it's even more absurd as young people generally have better eyesight, so maybe we should lower the retirement age again... 

 

 

There is no straw these guys won't grasp at to get 2 more years.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Blue said:

From Reddit: Army Aviation leadership killed 67 people today

Text copied below.

 

 

 

I will say that I have a former student from college who is an CW3 AD Apache guy.  His FB page is filled with this type of hate toward Army Aviation leadership about what's going on with Army helo aviation.  I've never talked to him about it, but he seems to be pointing out the lack of hours, lack of training and prioritization of everything other than being steely eyed killers in the air.  Sounds familiar.  

Edited Thursday at 11:11 PM by SocialD

[BFM this]

This is going to be emotional.

For context, the last mass-casualty event for a US p121 carrier was Colgan 2008.

8B pax since then.

We are simply ruthless about running down the causes and prevention in this business.  It’s a good thing.  But it hurts when the swiss cheese lines up.

[ViperMan]

DEI is awful, and at the same time, I don't think it's directly responsible for this. That's just nonsense. Pulling back though, it is part of the larger, more dangerous, apathy that has taken hold in our country which says "competence doesn't matter and neither does accountability." Hopefully whoever is responsible for this is held accountable.

[Swizzle]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFcE08TxmLU/

[Lord Ratner]

6 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

 

The Pro age 67 FB group had a post this morning with the following quote.

 

This accident on short final at DCA has inexperience written all over it.  Please get out there and push for an EXECUTIVE ORDER to RAISE THE AGE IMMEDIATELY.  We, the airline industry, are directly responsible for these deaths.

 

There is no depth too low for which these guys will stoop, all in the name of getting theirs.  Sadly he's one of us at DAL but is scheduled to retire in March.  It can't get here soon enough.  WTF is wrong with some people.  

Old people suck. It's an inescapable force of nature that as you get older you get shittier. All you can do is try to start the process from a better position and slow the rate of decent into self-absorbed entitlement. Some do a very poor job of this. Add a lifetime of irresponsible financial planning, and maybe even an identity that is too wrapped up in the fantasy of a 1960s style airline captain, you end up with guys do and say anything to cling to the job longer.

[Polar Bear]

6 hours ago, Blue said:

From Reddit: Army Aviation leadership killed 67 people today

Text copied below.

 

Check out the Army Aviation version of this site and they would agree. They would agree.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Armyaviation/

 

[Desayuno]

6 hours ago, BFM this said:

This is going to be emotional.

For context, the last mass-casualty event for a US p121 carrier was Colgan 2008.

8B pax since then.

We are simply ruthless about running down the causes and prevention in this business.  It’s a good thing.  But it hurts when the swiss cheese lines up.

You’re right, we are incredibly ruthless about it. In some way it’s comforting knowing that these incidents are so rare that they do provoke outrage and a race to find better solutions. 

Imagine what living through 1960 would have been like in terms of military and civilian aviation incidents. 

Here’s a toast to the crews and passengers. 🍻 Fly safe out there.
 

 

Edited Friday at 06:02 AM by Desayuno
Spelling

[M2]

Not good...

Quote

Jet Aborted Landing at Reagan National Day Before Crash

A Republic Airways passenger jet was forced to abort its first attempt to land at Reagan National Airport after a helicopter appeared in its flight path on Tuesday, 24 hours before the plane crash between an American Airlines jet and an Army Black Hawk helicopter, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

The Post cited an audio recording from air traffic control.

(Full article at title link)

 

 

[StoleIt]

15 hours ago, Blue said:

From Reddit: Army Aviation leadership killed 67 people today

Text copied below.

 

Counter argument:
https://6abc.com/post/army-black-hawk-crew-involved-dc-crash-made-top-pilots-thousands-hours-experience/15849913/

 

Except for maybe new folks at the 1st Heli and some RJ pilots, I'd wager nearly everyone else flying in the NCR is extremely experienced.

[VMFA187]

9 hours ago, Desayuno said:

You’re right, we are incredibly ruthless about it. In some way it’s comforting knowing that these incidents are so rare that they do provoke outrage and a race to find better solutions. 

Imagine what living through 1960 would have been like in terms of military and civilian aviation incidents. 

Here’s a toast to the crews and passengers. 🍻 Fly safe out there.
 

 

 

Would've been a hell of a lot of fun though!

[brabus]

54 minutes ago, StoleIt said:

Counter argument:
https://6abc.com/post/army-black-hawk-crew-involved-dc-crash-made-top-pilots-thousands-hours-experience/15849913/

 

Except for maybe new folks at the 1st Heli and some RJ pilots, I'd wager nearly everyone else flying in the NCR is extremely experienced.

Experience does not guarantee proficiency. According to that article the crew had 1k/500/“a few hundred” hours…that’s not “extremely” experienced in my book (but also I don’t think that’s a significant contributor in this accident). Now tack on low proficiency (a guess, not stated as fact) and it’s very realistic task saturation/misprioritization led to being a couple hundred feet high, unfortunately at the worst time and place. Let he who has never found themselves a couple hundred (or more) feet high/low cast the first stone. 
 

It seems like altitude deconfliction is suspect in the NCR, so how about helos have to hover/hold if an aircraft is < X nm on approach to a runway that’s a factor to a HR, no exceptions (also maybe don’t allow circle to 33 at night). Helo can proceed once aircraft laterally displaced from HR by X amount. Seems a simple procedure change like this could substantially reduce the midair threat. 

[Lawman]

Counter argument:
https://6abc.com/post/army-black-hawk-crew-involved-dc-crash-made-top-pilots-thousands-hours-experience/15849913/
 
Except for maybe new folks at the 1st Heli and some RJ pilots, I'd wager nearly everyone else flying in the NCR is extremely experienced.

That report is a crock.

A 1000 hour standard used to be the norm for even thinking about sending a pilot to IPC.

500 hours for PC is in line with the current Army aviation average which all of us have said is not sufficient to call it anything but a Junior force.

That retired mouthpiece should stfu. Stating the crew had thousands of hours is a gross over inflation.


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[Biff_T]

28 minutes ago, brabus said:

Let he who has never found themselves a couple hundred (or more) feet high/low cast the first stone. 

This.

I used to fly around 75 (sometimes 7.5 feet) AGL (AWL for you nerds) through there.   You get close to the Reagan traffic all of the time.   Easy to get complacent.  However, the tower could have said something to keep them from smashing into each other. Maybe ask PAT about his altitude deviation or told them to turn immediately.   The tower could have looked outside with his eyeballs and seen this accident coming.  

Once again, real bummer for the lost.   If PAT was heading home they were only a few minutes away, the CRJ was on final.   Everyone was almost home safe.  

[disgruntledemployee]

I think the FAA will institute some sort of red light/green light scheme to prevent conflicts over the river.  Helo on the Bolling Coast, no circles to 33.  Plane on 33, no helos on the river.  Hell, maybe they'll even install actual stop lights at holding points.  The roundabout version on the river didn't work the other night.

2 hours ago, StoleIt said:

Counter argument:
https://6abc.com/post/army-black-hawk-crew-involved-dc-crash-made-top-pilots-thousands-hours-experience/15849913/

 

Except for maybe new folks at the 1st Heli and some RJ pilots, I'd wager nearly everyone else flying in the NCR is extremely experienced.

All the experience in the world doesn't prevent a pilot from misidentifying traffic, but maybe makes one cautious enough to make sure you got the right one in sight, and even then....  Since that is possible, I'm expecting guardrails to be put into place. 

[Flev]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

Not good...

 

 

Extremely unfortunate, but here's a good break-down of that TCAS RA that happened the day prior.