IFE with an IP

[Buddy Spike]

During a real, no-kidding inflight emergency with an IP, does the IP take over and run through the boldface/checklist items, or does he allow the student to work it out on his own?

How does that work?

Thanks!

[Sneedro]

Depends on the IP and student.

[HerkDerka]

It all depends bro.

If you are having a no shit, life threatening, time critical emergency, the IP will almost definitely take the plane. Remember he has the "A" code not you and he's the one who has to answer to the DO.

It all depends on the type of emergency it is, what skill level you are at in your training, and how comfortable the IP is. Not to mention the IP's experience level too. If it is something mundane, the IP might (I stress MIGHT) want you to handle the emergency procedures to increase your confidence. After that, I would still expect him to take the plane and land it.

Ask ENJJPTIP, I'm sure he has some good info on the subject.

HD

[ 11. December 2004, 22:17: Message edited by: HercDriver24 ]

[ClearedHot]

IFE in UPT, expect the IP to take it. IP in the real world, it depends. In most crew aircraft you will fly proficiency-training sorties with an IP and there will be multiple crew positions and experience levels on board. For example I flew sorties where I had two co-pilots and an aircraft commander who needed to fly precision approaches to close out their semi-annuals. I also had an AC onboard who was doing an IP prep ride. The regulations do give some guidance, at least within AFSOC. As I recall it says that during an IFE a “Qualified” pilot should land from the left seat (due mainly to nose wheel steering). When I had a problem it always depended on the nature of the emergency, the experience level of the individual, and who was in the left seat.

[Flare]

Originally posted by HercDriver24:

It all depends on the type of emergency it is, what skill level you are at in your training, and how comfortable the IP is. Not to mention the IP's experience level too. If it is something mundane, the IP might (I stress MIGHT) want you to handle the emergency procedures to increase your confidence. After that, I would still expect him to take the plane and land it.

Shack for HD. My 2 main things that I brief before every flight that will determine how the EP is handled is 1)what the EP is and 2)what level of training the student is in. When my stud is pre-solo, the briefing is "I will take the aircraft." If they're toward the latter stages of the game, I'll let them handle alot of stuff, except for engine problems or flight control issues. If it's something that doesn't really affect how the jet flies (Nordo is the main one) then I have no problem letting an advanced student fly the jet(while I keep a VERY close eye on them).

[ 11. December 2004, 22:58: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[Guest HueyPilot]

All good answers. For sure, if there is an emergency, the instruction (at least syllabus instruction) is over. The IP will delegate to you what you will handle, depending on the nature of the EP and your experience level.

Like it was mentioned, if you're a UPT stud flying Tweets or the T-6, don't expect to figure it out on your own. The IP will likely take the controls, and have you handle other things like checklists, unless he or she feels the aircraft controllability isn't an issue...that will free them up to work other issues.

If you're a line pilot, you're part of a full-up crew and you'll be expected to participate in the EP resolution and not just sit there being told what to do.

I've only had one EP as an IP, and I was flying with an AC-qualified pilot. We departed Tyndall in the C-21 for Sheppard, and passing north of Eglin climbing through FL180, the other pilot (who was flying from the left seat...although I was the A code) said "hey, isn't that the fire t-handle?". Sure enough it was flashing. He had the aircraft, and he was current and qualified to fly single engine approaches, so I left him with the aircraft and I ran the checklists and coordinated with ATC and Eglin AFB for the emergency landing.

Despite the t-handle, it was a false alarm...much to the disappointment of the Eglin AFB fire department. Just a bad Inconel loop (the metal heat-sensitive loop that forms the fire detection system for the C-21). Sometimes if they get little kinks in them, it'll lower the tolerance and set the t-handle off.

[Guest deweygcc]

I was talking to a KBAD firefighter the otherday and he told me two CB t-38's declared an IFE for low fuel...... Im guessing the Stud took that one :D

[Guest Walter_Sobchak]

I've used the E-word three times as a student, but two were pretty minor things (i.e., gear stuck down). The one time things got pretty serious was a right engine flameout in the T-37. I was flying at the time so I performed the initial actions. After it became clear the boldface wasn't going to restart things the IP took over while I got busy with the checklists, sts. The engine never did restart, but the crew coordination worked out pretty much exactly as briefed.

[Guest Walter_Sobchak]

That and the fact that it's possible to have a flame out in the T-38 with significantly more than zero pounds indicating in either fuel system.

[Hacker]

I'll throw my view as an IFF IP into the mix here. I brief my students on every sortie that when there's a no-kidding EP, training is over but *keep flying the airplane* and run applicable checklists.

As others have said, I'll let students handle the EP on their own up to my tolerance for safety. I think being forced to handle an EP on your own is a fantastic learning experience, and by the time students get to me they should be able to perform a T-38 EP with few problems.

My most recent EP I did not let a student handle was a weird EED indication which looked like an oil pump shaft shear (it later turned out to not be that), after which we shut the motor down and shot a single engine ILS into 400-1 conditions. I let the student trouble shoot the problem while I ran checklists for him, he performed all the coordination with his flight lead, the SOF, and approach. I only took over when we were approaching ILS final. He was doing a fine job, but I couldn't afford for us to mess up a no-crap SE ILS down close to mins and low on gas (it happened on RTB). It wasn't a big deal for me, but it could have been for my student, and I could not answer the mail as an IP if anything had happened.

[Guest deweygcc]

Originally posted by BeerMan:

It sounds like no big deal Dewey...but low fuel in a T38 is nothing to sneeze at. (we're required to call min fuel at #600, emergency fuel at #400. Not a comfortable position to be in when you burn about 40 lbs a minute at pattern alt and speeds. Approx 10 minutes until you no kidding run out of fuel, a full pattern takes about 5, bla bla bla...you get the point. Throwing out the E word gives you that warm fuzzy that everyone knows you need to get on the ground ASAP.

Cheers,

BeerMan

SO why did they do a few approaches then head to Shreveport regional to land?

[ClearedHot]

While I was at Laughlin a buddy we had a nice IFE with a T-38 and low fuel. We were flying out in the area when a CB popped up right over the field. The SOF is screaming for everyone to get home as fast as possible. I made it back just in just as the feces was starting to hit the oscillator. My buddy, who was right behind me gets a 70 knots wind sheer on final and goes around. It’s obvious he is not going to land at Laughlin so he decides to head for Kelly. Back in the day there was a procedure for diverting with low fuel (I presume it is still the same)? First you set MIL power and accelerated to 500 kts, then you looked at a chart in the checklist for the distance you had to go. The chart would then tell you what altitude to climb to. So my buddy points east and does the procedure. As I am taxiing back in I hear the SOF ask him “How much gas do you have”, followed by “mumble mumble”. A few seconds later the DO gets on the radio and says “How much gas do you have…tell the truth”. He is halfway to Kelly and his answer is “250lbs”. Without wasting a breath the DO tells him to go to Hondo. For those that don’t know, Hondo is the 4000’ field where they used to conduct the flight screening program and about 4000’ too short for a T-38. In the end my buddy flys an approach at minimum speed (I forget the formula, SETO +10?), and lands safely at Hondo. I think he flamed out on the taxiway. In the end they sent a stan-eval crew from Randolph to take the jet back to Laughlin with half a tank of gas. As very interesting day in the T-38 world.

[JS]

I have known of 3 IFE's that happened to SOLO studs in my UPT class or the class just below mine (2 Tweet's, 1 -38). When the student is solo, the student will generally take care of the entire EP himself/herself.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by JS:

When the student is solo, the student will generally take care of the entire EP himself/herself.

You think?

HD

[JS]

Originally posted by HercDriver24:

You think?

HD

[HerkDerka]

LOL, yep I picked up on it bro. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

HD