Changing/Switching airframes

[WheelsOff]

Figured this could be an appropriate place to post this...email from the Sq/CC:

"There is a unique cross flow opportunity to the fighter or bomber track. It is highly selective and will require a Wing/CC interview. Please let the execs and I know if you are interested and what category you fit into below:

1. Pilots who flew T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to either a bomber or fighter. 

2. Pilots who did NOT fly T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to a bomber. 

3. Pilots who did NOT fly T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to a fighter. 

//an AMC Sq/CC"

Wow, sounds like desperate times if they're even considering dudes who flew the T-1 to compete for a fighter.

Edited August 25, 2016 by WheelsOff

[Duck]

ITS A TRAP!

[Fuzz]

Got the same email from my squadron commander, apparently they are looking for mid-level captains was a rumor I heard, so by the time they finish IFF, B-course, mission ready they'll be Major selects. Possibly sounds like they really just want 11F pilots to fill staff billets.

[YoungnDumb]

I'll be interested to see if that makes its way over to AETC as we have absorbed a large amount of MC-12 bubbas, many of whom would kill to have a shot at a fighter/bomber.

[Boomer6]

15 minutes ago, YoungnDumb said:

I'll be interested to see if that makes its way over to AETC as we have absorbed a large amount of MC-12 bubbas, many of whom would kill to have a shot at a fighter/bomber.

Already did. We've got a C-17 guy foaming at the mouth to apply.

[Duck]

Already did. We've got a C-17 guy foaming at the mouth to apply.

He does know that he can't just put the thing on auto-pilot right?

[WheelsOff]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

Already did. We've got a C-17 guy foaming at the mouth to apply.

You at XL? If so then bet I know who...he used to be in my sqdn, doesn't surprise me one bit lol.

Like Fuzz said; I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a ploy to get more "11F" bodies for staff jobs. If that's the case, then why waste time getting them in fighters at all...they've used other 11X's to fill them in the past. What's a young major (or major-select) that's just a wingman gonna bring to that table anyways?

[brabus]

Best case they'll fill random ADO and attached job "commiserate with rank," barely maintain BMC, and overall have marginal utility to the CAF...until they're use to fill 11F staff after their one fighter assignment.  Unfortunately I think their BMC flying rate/60 hrs of queep a week will marginalize their previous "air experience" when compared to the LTs who fly twice as much.  None of this will be their fault personally, but will be the fault of big blue at large who can't manage people worth a shit.  But, on the plus side for them personally, they're flying fighters for a few years even if it does include a lot of queep suck to go with it.  

[Fuzz]

3 minutes ago, brabus said:

Best case they'll fill random ADO and attached job "commiserate with rank," barely maintain BMC, and overall have marginal utility to the CAF...until they're use to fill 11F staff after their one fighter assignment.  Unfortunately I think their BMC flying rate/60 hrs of queep a week will marginalize their previous "air experience" when compared to the LTs who fly twice as much.  None of this will be their fault personally, but will be the fault of big blue at large who can't manage people worth a shit.  But, on the plus side for them personally, they're flying fighters for a few years even if it does include a lot of queep suck to go with it.  

The definition of "flying fighters" is pretty relative. Maintaining BMC as a wingman being stuck somewhere in the wing and then shuttled off to staff vs staying in their airframe that they've already established themselves in. This also speaks nothing to the career aspect, coming in as a new (wingman) guy to the community they are probably not going to be picking up strats or pushes over the guys (patches, FLT leads etc) that have been in the community for a while. 

[matmacwc]

3 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Figured this could be an appropriate place to post this...email from the Sq/CC:

"There is a unique cross flow opportunity to the fighter or bomber track. It is highly selective and will require a Wing/CC interview. Please let the execs and I know if you are interested and what category you fit into below:

1. Pilots who flew T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to either a bomber or fighter. 

2. Pilots who did NOT fly T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to a bomber. 

3. Pilots who did NOT fly T-38s and are volunteers to crossflow to a fighter. 

//an AMC Sq/CC"

Wow, sounds like desperate times if they're even considering dudes who flew the T-1 to compete for a fighter.

Like above, this is a terrible idea, don't do it.  There will be people that sign up and fail out, but owe the commitment, see?  There will be people that sign up and pass, and be the runt of the squadron doing the MC-12 business again and/or the OSS non flying job cause the hours that aren't there.  These people will try and game the system, saying one tour  and I will go ANG, but that door is already being pounded on and your 200 hours ain't gonna cut it.  You will be the sacrificial lamb, spread the word.

For reference, I know a Viper dude that got non vouled back to the Viper to Kunsan as a Major out of white jets, one year at the Kun and about 60 hours of flight time later, right back to white jets.  

Edited August 25, 2016 by matmacwc

[Clark Griswold]

...one year at the Kun and about 60 hours of flight time later, right back to white jets.  

Ouch

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Follow on question for 11Fs: there's all this talk of shitty manning in rated staff jobs that require an 11F - are most/any of these jobs worth doing or "ops staff" type jobs? If they aren't manned now and haven't been for a while are they jobs that actually need to be done?

Both an honest and rhetorical question

[scoobs]

Didn't Rainman go from helos to fighters?

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[pawnman]

8 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Like above, this is a terrible idea, don't do it.  There will be people that sign up and fail out, but owe the commitment, see?  There will be people that sign up and pass, and be the runt of the squadron doing the MC-12 business again and/or the OSS non flying job cause the hours that aren't there.  These people will try and game the system, saying one tour  and I will go ANG, but that door is already being pounded on and your 200 hours ain't gonna cut it.  You will be the sacrificial lamb, spread the word.

For reference, I know a Viper dude that got non vouled back to the Viper to Kunsan as a Major out of white jets, one year at the Kun and about 60 hours of flight time later, right back to white jets.  

But somehow, we don't have enough fighter pilots to fill fighter cockpits?

[Rudy the Rabbit]

In the last crossflow, some of the former MAF guys fit in just fine, did very well, becoming FS/CC's.  I think at least one guy went on to become an OG/CC.  Obviously as well, some did not.  The big kicker will be if the MAF WG/CC's are going to pick the #1 MAF stratted pilot, the best suited to get through the fighter training pipeline, or the best candidate that the upper level leadership would have chosen.

[Duck]

In the last crossflow, some of the former MAF guys fit in just fine, did very well, becoming FS/CC's.  I think at least one guy went on to become an OG/CC.  Obviously as well, some did not.  The big kicker will be if the MAF WG/CC's are going to pick the #1 MAF stratted pilot, the best suited to get through the fighter training pipeline, or the best candidate that the upper level leadership would have chosen.

Bingo. As a guy with PIT IP experience I have seen plenty of AMC guys who have great records but get put on CAP because the hands just aren't there. I think it has more to do with how the MAF focuses less on flying and tactical proficiency and more on the office job aspect.

[Clark Griswold]

Bingo. As a guy with PIT IP experience I have seen plenty of AMC guys who have great records but get put on CAP because the hands just aren't there. I think it has more to do with how the MAF focuses less on flying and tactical proficiency and more on the office job aspect.

Partly true but you just can't get jiggly with it when your jet is G limited to 2.0 and 1.5 would get raised eyebrows

Follow on - not excusing very basic airmanship skill lapses - heavy drivers should give George a break when appropriate to keep the hands ready

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[Muscle2002]

Partly true but you just can't get jiggly with it when your jet is G limited to 2.0 and 1.5 would get raised eyebrows

Follow on - not excusing very basic airmanship skill lapses - heavy drivers should give George a break when appropriate to keep the hands ready

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Your advice is probably true for any pilot. That and learning to fly without a HUD, flight director, FPM et cetera...that is, refresh the skill of flying by looking outside.

[Duck]

Partly true but you just can't get jiggly with it when your jet is G limited to 2.0 and 1.5 would get raised eyebrows

Follow on - not excusing very basic airmanship skill lapses - heavy drivers should give George a break when appropriate to keep the hands ready

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I am a product of AMC myself. All I know is once I got put on the "path": Exec, Shop Chief, Flt/CC, ADO... My leadership raised eyebrows when I would try to get on the road, deploy, etc. I had 2 deployments that I volunteered for denied and was taken off countless business efforts, trips etc... I was barely flying a couple times a month and that was mainly with copilots who needed the work more than I did. So I definitely get the struggle. I don't really blame the player, I blame the game.

Having said that, we are getting a lot of well-strated MAF dudes that are getting crushed in T-6 PIT. Not to say that being the #1/2 guy is mutually exclusive to retaining those basic flying skills learned in UPT, because some dudes come in and fly through the program.

Also flying the T-38 for 96 hours in UPT doesn't necessarily correlate that you have better stick skills than a dude who didn't. We have T-38 guys come through who suck and T-1 dudes who are well above what I expect a guy coming to PIT.

I say all this as a guy who was a T-38 dude back during the "Universally Assignable" days. Talking to my bros on the Fighter side... I wouldn't accept a cross-flow to the other side for anything, but then again this is my last assignment and I am getting out.

TL/DR

1. AMC is not a good predictor of good pilots/future leadership.

2. Just cuz you flew the T-38 in UPT, you still may suck.

3. I would love to go fly fighters, but I don't trust the AF and wouldn't take the crossflow pill, regardless of what Blue promises.

4. I am getting out ASAFP

[ViperStud]

5 minutes ago, Duck said:

TL/DR

1. AMC is not a good predictor of good pilots/future leadership.

2. Just cuz you flew the T-38 in UPT, you still may suck.

3. I would love to go fly fighters, but I don't trust the AF and wouldn't take the crossflow pill, regardless of what Blue promises.

4. I am getting out ASAFP

This. I know some dudes might foam at the mouth at this opportunity, but step back and look at it from big AF's perspective. Do you really think ACC is going to bring dudes over to be wingmen (when their peers are IPs) and do anything other than fill shitty squares with them?

A few will make it happen, but the odds are seriously stacked against them. 

GTFO ASAP.  It really IS that much better outside AD. 

[Hacker]

13 hours ago, brabus said:

 "commiserate with rank,"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commensurate

 

[Hacker]

Let's remember that the last time there was a fighter crossflow ('97-'99), the CAF was quite dissatisfied with the performance of a large number of guys who crossflowed.  So much so that, at the time, they said "never again".

Yay!  What's old is new again!

I was in IFF, F-15E FTU, and my first fighter squadron with a handful of crossflow guys circa '99, and the results were, unfortunately, mixed.  Everyone made it through IFF and FTU okay, but when it came time to tactically employ jets and become flight leads out in the operational fighter world that's where the cracks really showed.  A few guys did great, and unfortunately more guys didn't, even so far as never getting back to a fighter assignment after that initial one due to that initial assignment performance.

As I've posted about on baseops before, these were all great dudes and officers, but their "hands" and (to use a Navy term) "headwork" weren't quite as strong.

[WayUp]

Well my RQ-4 experience will transfer perfectly, I'll keep an eye out for the email.

[ViperStud]

48 minutes ago, Hacker said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commensurate

 

I figured that was an intended pun when I first read it. 

[di1630]

Everyone is hung up on flying "aptitude" when the real focus needs to be "attitude".

Give me a MAF guy who really wants to fly fighters and has a kickass aggressive attitude and he/she will do fine.

I've known guys in almost every fighter who cross flowed back in the day. A lot of them were badass dudes.

I saw some great potential students end up in T-1s or others because of bad luck/timing. Get some of them cross flowed and they'll do just fine after some experience.

[Stitch]

39 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Everyone is hung up on flying "aptitude" when the real focus needs to be "attitude".

Give me a MAF guy who really wants to fly fighters and has a kickass aggressive attitude and he/she will do fine.

I've known guys in almost every fighter who cross flowed back in the day. A lot of them were badass dudes.

I saw some great potential students end up in T-1s or others because of bad luck/timing. Get some of them cross flowed and they'll do just fine after some experience.

Years ago in FLYING magazine Len Morgan wrote about his experience flying P-51s in the ANG post WWII.  He took a job as a guard unit’s boss of the chow hall just to get a few precious hours a month in the Mustang.  While Len had TONS of hours almost all of his time was in C-47s, C-54s and in his civilian airline job flying Constellations worldwide.  He related that on numerous occasions while flying what we now call BFM with the unit’s other pilots he was repeatedly “waxed” by his squadron mates.  He made the observation that while he was a safe, competent Mustang pilot; at the end of the day, while he flew fighters, he wasn’t a fighter pilot.  He said the other guys had a completely different outlook on flying, not cocky or overly aggressive, just different, and that made them what they were.