Changing/Switching airframes

[Duck]

Brabus, thanks. Exactly what I have been trying to say.

[Boomer6]

On Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 8:18 PM, WheelsOff said:

Yep, like I said, not surprised, ha. Best of luck to him...hope he can punch afterwards...he's not the type to want to do a staff gig.

Nope.

Not at XL.

[Jaded]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

 On another plus side, IFF/B-Course/MQT will give them a solid 1-1.5 years of nearly zero queep and only focused on tactics, which will certainly be a welcomed break.

I wouldn't call IFF/B-Course/MQT a "break." It was a good experience, but I worked my ass off.

[pcola]

12 hours ago, Duck said:

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer, but I would just say think critically about this. I am also not trying to discourage anyone. Hell, 4 years ago, I would have jumped on this like BQZip's mom.

And you would have greatly regretted it.  I went to SOS with BQZip ~5 years ago - his mom made the rounds.  I don't know what's worse, the burning, itching, or the emotional scarring.  Wait, what were we talking about again???  Oh year, switching to fighters...  

To sum up the thread, if your life's dream was to be a fighter pilot and you didn't get the chance for whatever reason after UPT, go for it.  Just realize that you will be a part of AFPC's #s strategy and subsequently subject to all of the BS warned about in this thread.  But ultimately, aren't we all just pawns in the big blue game and subjected to one shit-show or another?  The only difference is the flavor of shit. 

Edited August 27, 2016 by pcola

[Termy]

To you all that don't like the later in the career timing of switching to fighters, are you therefore advocating that FAIP's shouldn't get to fly fighters?

Somewhat related to this discussion, can someone shed some light on this:  we are supposedly all about the "total force" now.  If that is the case, why isn't every single 11F staff job open to AFRC/ANG 11F personnel?  You see a couple pop up on VRS but I don't understand why every single job isn't listed.

 

[Herk Driver]

Brabus,

Seems pretty pessimistic to me….  What are you basing all these assumptions on?

It seems like someone just alleged that these guys would all be Majors or Major selects.  But is that true?  Does the guidance actually target those year groups, or did we just make that up?  I don’t know.

If it was the product of imagination, and the cross flow guys might be younger……how does that make them different from a FAIP?  Or an MC-12 guy?  Or a late rated guy?

Do we send inexperienced dudes straight to Wg/OSS jobs as soon as they show up?  Is that what you’ve seen your leadership do with a previous FAIP that’s newly MR? 

If they do get attached, do they really stay there for the duration of the entire assignment?

Do guys spend literally 60 hours a week doing queep? 

Do all these guys get just one fighter assignment in their entire career? 

Why do people get shacked with a 365?  Is it because they’re inexperienced in the jet, or because they’re a mid-level Major that's never gone remote?

I appreciate your skepticism and words of caution to guys considering the program, but it seems a little heavy on supposition and melodrama.   

How many fighter guys do you know that have gone to staff in the last five years?  Would you say a lot or a little?  Do you know any that weren’t IDE complete? 

The staff, in my understanding, has been the shock absorber for the 11F shortage.  The AF has prioritized filling cockpits and the 11F shortage is only getting worse, so it’s strange to me that you would deduce that these cross flow pilots are going to be funneled towards the staff. 

It seems to me like if the cross flow had any correlation to staff manning, it would be that it frees up a handful of movers (IDE grads, future CCs) in the community to actually go to staff, while the inexperienced cross flow dudes man the sq's and fly the line.

I know two dudes that cross-flowed to fighters in the late 90’s.  One went to WIC.  Both were FS/CC’s.  Times have changed and the AF is constantly evolving, but it seems like everyone’s spring-loaded towards doom and gloom.

Flying fighters is ing awesome.  Thus, this is a ing awesome opportunity for dudes that seek it.  Attitude is everything.  If a previous C-17 guy showed up in my squadron and said, both in his words and his actions, “I’m here because I want to slaughter the enemy and protect soldiers and Marines,” then I say….welcome to the club, bro.

The message I just saw from the AMC/A3 is targeting mid level Capts and below, IIRC.

I'll post the words here when I get back to work next week.

[Herk Driver]

Somewhat related to this discussion, can someone shed some light on this:  we are supposedly all about the "total force" now.  If that is the case, why isn't every single 11F staff job open to AFRC/ANG 11F personnel?  You see a couple pop up on VRS but I don't understand why every single job isn't listed.

Good point and I don't know the answer but I can tell you that AFRC is having trouble filling cockpits right now as well.

[Jaded]

The FAIP comparison is an apt one - there were a ton of 11F FAIPs passed over in 2012 because they didn't have as much progression as their peers. FAIPs often get through MQT and are immediately put into BMC wing jobs. I don't think this would be any different.

[Disregard]

... But ultimately, aren't we all just pawns in the big blue game and subjected to one shit-show or another?  The only difference is the flavor of shit. 

[B.L]

So what would be the difference between the dudes that would crossflow and a late rate?

[Sprkt69]

 

2 hours ago, Herk Driver said:

The message I just saw from the AMC/A3 is targeting mid level Capts and below, IIRC.

I'll post the words here when I get back to work next week.

Hence they show up to a new MDS as a major select or quickly going to the Majors board. The Lts should not have the same issues as the older guys, but it'll be luck and timing.

[brabus]

Quote

 

I wouldn't call IFF/B-Course/MQT a "break." It was a good experience, but I worked my ass off.

A break from queep, the BS, etc. and true ability to focus on tactics/the job you actually care about.  Not a break from working long hours, stress, etc.

Quote

 

Seems pretty pessimistic to me….  What are you basing all these assumptions on?  Do we send inexperienced dudes straight to Wg/OSS jobs as soon as they show up?  Is that what you’ve seen your leadership do with a previous FAIP that’s newly MR? 

Seen several TAMI guys return to fly, FAIPs, etc. get shoved into BMC jobs shortly after MQT.  Also seen the same thing with previous fighter dudes who went non-flying for an assignment (ALO, etc.)  It didn't happen to everyone in that boat, but it happened to a lot.  I don't think that's right, but that's reality at least in some places and I've seen it happen enough to warrant my skepticism.  But like I caveated, there certainly will be those who avoid this crap, but it's also not right to lead prospective dudes in this situation into a false sense that if they crossflow, they can expect multiple fighter assignments, they'll be an IP in 3 years only working in the fighter squadron the entire assignment, etc.  And yes, there is certainly a bit of skepticism on my part in general just based off of general AF shenanigans and a consistent track record of fucking people over.

Quote

 

If they do get attached, do they really stay there for the duration of the entire assignment?

Do guys spend literally 60 hours a week doing queep? 

Do all these guys get just one fighter assignment in their entire career?

Yes, seen all three.  And I've seen many more who got a 2nd assignment in a fighter...one year to Korea and then right back to white jets, etc. I get it this is not going to happen to everyone, but it's a real thing that based on my last 11 years would say is not something to be scoffed.

 

 

 

Flying fighters is fucking awesome.  Thus, this is a fucking awesome opportunity for dudes that seek it.  Attitude is everything.  If a previous C-17 guy showed up in my squadron and said, both in his words and his actions, “I’m here because I want to slaughter the enemy and protect soldiers and Marines,” then I say….welcome to the club, bro.

 

Completely agree!  My intent was just to add some info so guys go eyes wide open into this with a some realistic expectations.  I don't think any of this should stop a dude from trying, but at least he knows what he's possibly getting himself into.  Never know what someone's family desires are, are they willing to sign extra ADSC for this, etc.  Face value this is a no brainer, but there are legitimate things to consider before blindly jumping in.

Edited August 27, 2016 by brabus
Edit: A lot of this does change though if they actually take young Captains...i.e. on a FAIP/timeline. The potential negative aspects of this are greatly exacerbated for the mid-level+ Capt types who cross over.

[Sprkt69]

2 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

 

A break from queep, the BS, etc. and true ability to focus on tactics/the job you actually care about.  Not a break from working long hours, stress, etc.

 

 

Seen several TAMI guys return to fly, FAIPs, etc. get shoved into BMC jobs shortly after MQT.  Also seen the same thing with previous fighter dudes who went non-flying for an assignment (ALO, etc.)  It didn't happen to everyone in that boat, but it happened to a lot.  I don't think that's right, but that's reality at least in some places and I've seen it happen enough to warrant my skepticism.  But like I caveated, there certainly will be those who avoid this crap, but it's also not right to lead prospective dudes in this situation into a false sense that if they crossflow, they can expect multiple fighter assignments, they'll be an IP in 3 years only working in the fighter squadron the entire assignment, etc.  And yes, there is certainly a bit of skepticism on my part in general just based off of general AF shenanigans and a consistent track record of ing people over.

 

 

The best thing for these cross trainees would be to get out as soon as possible and get to a Reserve/Guard unit ASAP.

And 60 hrs of qweep a week may be on the light side. Cross trainees will find that there are not a lot of extra warm bodies around to do the work.

I believe that it's a great experience for the dudes willing to try. I just don't think the AD AF is going to be kind in the assignment process

[Duck]

The FAIP vs MWS crossflow guys are going to be a minimum of 2 years age difference.

Think about it.

MWS crossflow: UPT - MWS school - 1st Duty Station (minimum 2 years TOS) - 38 spin up - IFF - B Course...

FAIP: UPT - FAIP tour - 38 spin up if required- IFF - B course - ends up in a FS as a mid level Capt.

You can't really compare the two.

[Duck]

Also what pool of 38 dudes are we pulling from. At my UPT base it has been damn near 100% fighters for all that "qual'd" for the past 2-3 years.

I know a couple younger (2011 commission) Captains who were 38 to MC-12 but most of us are 2007-2010 commissioners either just met our majors board or meeting in the next year.

[Herk Driver]

 

Hence they show up to a new MDS as a major select or quickly going to the Majors board. The Lts should not have the same issues as the older guys, but it'll be luck and timing.

Yep, you're right they will all be Capts with 7 years time in service that get selected and will be a Major-select or Maj by the time they get to their MDS.

Get ing real...there will be a few from multiple different year groups more than likely and some will have the problem you propose. Others will not. I don't see this as a grand fix and I don't have a dog in this fight as I enter the twilight of a mediocre career, but the sky is not falling (yet) when it comes to this course of action. We've seen some of this before...it was not all a shit show then and odds are it won't be now.

[Duck]

Yep, you're right they will all be Capts with 7 years time in service that get selected and will be a Major-select or Maj by the time they get to their MDS.

Get ing real...there will be a few from multiple different year groups more than likely and some will have the problem you propose. Others will not. I don't see this as a grand fix and I don't have a dog in this fight as I enter the twilight of a mediocre career, but the sky is not falling (yet) when it comes to this course of action. We've seen some of this before...it was not all a shit show then and odds are it won't be now.

I see your point brother. It all depends on Big Blue and how they manage this. I'm excited some of my friends might get a chance to go fly fighters which they deserved 8 years ago. I truly hope it works out for them. I have 100% faith in their flying ability, their work ethic and their attitude. I don't share that faith in the Air Force that put them in heavies in the first place...

[Herk Driver]

I don't share that faith in the Air Force that put them in heavies in the first place...

I don't know that I have faith in the AF to manage this correctly, either.

But the sky is not falling because of this choice.

I am a late rated guy, with more than two different AFSCs. I was nearly 7 years time in the AF by the time I got to my first flying unit. I was not a CAF guy and honestly probably would have had progression issues at that point in my career, if I had been. There were some issues...but I have had awesome opportunities along the way, including leading Airmen as a commander twice and both times in combat. I continue to have the opportunity to fly at this point in my career and will probably be able to fly until I retire. It has been a great ride. The only constant is that, no matter what Chang spews, the AF gets rated policy wrong more times than not.

All of the current fixes will make a dent. None of them will fix the problems alone. They probably won't fix it when all implemented together.

When in doubt, refer back to how the AF doesn't get it right most of the time.

[carminsandiego]

5 hours ago, B.L said:

So what would be the difference between the dudes that would crossflow and a late rate?

I had the exact same question.  We've always had rated boards and the late rate guys (for the most part) seem to do fine and have plenty of opportunities in the cockpit for both MAF and CAF.  Why would this MAF to CAF crossflow be that much different? 

[Duck]

That's a good question. How are late rates taken care of in the 11F community currently? And how late are we talking? A brand new Capt is a lot different than a mid to senior dude in terms of the flying community.

[WheelsOff]

12 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Nope.

Not at XL.

Welp, guess there's two of them then!

[sqwatch]

As a dude who escaped from robots, it is near and dear to my heart what it's like to show up and be three or more years retarded from your peers. If career advancement is your thing, this cross flow gig is not for you. If you're tired of explaining to your FE the finer points of holding and flying upside down and killing bad guys are in your bucket list, give it a whirl. Those IGI and WG/XP positions aren't gonna fill themselves.

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[matmacwc]

On August 25, 2016 at 7:06 AM, scoobs said:

Didn't Rainman go from helos to fighters?

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We don't talk about the dark lord.  And where do you get off talking about military pilots?

[Sandbag]

On August 25, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Lstcause257 said:

Does his last name rhyme with Bolt?

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No, Bolt turned it down. 

[NKAWTG]

How are the fighter squadrons going to find tails to fly a bunch of crossflow guys?  Weren't absorption rates the reason we TAMI'd people out of that community?  Nine years later we now have the cockpits to get pilots the right mix of experience to upgrade in a reasonable manner?

I also don't see the MAF getting the right pilots either.  Flying ability is not something the MAF has cared about or quantified in your records.  Your Christmas party planners may have a leg up on this over the guys out hacking the mission.