Changing/Switching airframes

[matmacwc]

28 minutes ago, faipmafiaofficial said:

Don't bother dreaming man. As a T-1 UPT graduate you are automatically a worse pilot than ANYONE who flew the 38 in UPT. For the rest of your career too. Might as well get used to it. 

Well below slightly below average.

[Goblin]

Absolutely. There should be two separate types of ratings and two different pair of wings given honestly.

 

General Chang is on fire this weekend

[Best-22]

Lol at the gatekeeper mentality here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if it's important to the Air Force to have dudes cross flow from certain year groups, just start them in phase 3 of UPT. Proficiency advance from there as necessary. You can't pretend like only the "chosen few" with "the right stuff" in T-6's come track select time have a hope at making it. I know nobody is saying that exactly, but that's how it comes across to me as I've been lurking on these boards the past few years.

4 years after UPT as a C-17 or C-130 guy I don't see how it matters if you flew 38's in the past or not. We all know getting one in the first place is 50% skill, 50% luck, and 50% timing. I think just about every Saudi who has ever graduated UPT is proof that anyone can be taught to fly a fighter. It's just a matter of how long he syllabus should be for cross flow guys. 

 

Not that it matters because you all wish you were AFSOC anyways. 

[Homestar]

This might be my new favorite thread. 

[Boomer6]

1 hour ago, Best-22 said:

I think just about every Saudi who has ever graduated UPT is proof that anyone can be taught to fly a fighter. It's just a matter of how long he syllabus should be for cross flow guys.

We don't fly fighters in upt.

[Best-22]

15 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

We don't fly fighters in upt.

So we're in agreement then? 

[Boomer6]

10 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

So we're in agreement then? 

Your assertion that graduating a Saudi is equivalent to proving anyone can be taught to fly a fighter is invalid.

Also,  the heavy guys that have come back as - 38 instructors are below average so your statement about it not mattering after 4 years of c17 is also invalid.

There are 1 or 2 mc12 guys that are decent so I'll give you that. 

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, Best-22 said:

Lol at the gatekeeper mentality here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if it's important to the Air Force to have dudes cross flow from certain year groups, just start them in phase 3 of UPT. Proficiency advance from there as necessary. You can't pretend like only the "chosen few" with "the right stuff" in T-6's come track select time have a hope at making it. I know nobody is saying that exactly, but that's how it comes across to me as I've been lurking on these boards the past few years.

4 years after UPT as a C-17 or C-130 guy I don't see how it matters if you flew 38's in the past or not. We all know getting one in the first place is 50% skill, 50% luck, and 50% timing. I think just about every Saudi who has ever graduated UPT is proof that anyone can be taught to fly a fighter. It's just a matter of how long he syllabus should be for cross flow guys.

"fly a fighter" being the operable phrase - there is a large difference between "flying a fighter" and "being a fighter pilot" - Saudi "F-15 pilots" are not equivalent to US F-15 fighter pilots. Yuuuuuuuge difference. So I guess I agree with you?

[Duck]

Hate to generalize, even though that's what this whole thread is predicated on. The heavy guys who are coming back as T-38 guys are a completely mixed bag based off when they went through UPT and were they kicked out of their community to AETC for a reason. I know of several guys who went through T-38s during the time we had too many fighter pilots (lol) who are not in AETC because their community values them. Let's be honest here AETC is a 2nd or 3rd tier assignment for every community.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[Best-22]

We're talking about cross flow from heavies. It sounds like we're saying the same thing, that even off you flew -38's in UPT if you spend 4 years off in heavy land you still need nearly the full up phase 3 to be on equal footing with the UPT direct folks. Give the T-1 guys the same training/spin up and you get the same product. 

 

As for your other point, I'm too lazy to quote everyone but in the last 2-3 pages I've read people say: 

"copilot experience won't mean anything when you get to fighters" (so you need T-38 experience? I agree)

"companion trainer ops aren't the same or as good of training as UPT ops" (ok, I'll buy that)

"T-38 faip experience means nothing when you get to the B-course" (meaning any extra experience in the T-38 beyond 6 months in UPT is all you need to be successful for your follow on? If so I agree)

"when it comes to saudi's, graduating the T-38 doesn't mean anything about fighters" (T-38 doesnt = fighters? Got it)

and now you say, in the same post: "C-17 guys who came back to Instruct weren't as good" (so now T-38 DOES = fighters?)

dont throw your back out moving those goal posts. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Best-22

[Standby]

5 minutes ago, Duck said:

Let's be honest here AETC is a 2nd or 3rd tier assignment for every community.

You sure about that?  faipmafiaofficial is a hell of troll...bravo dude.

[Best-22]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

"fly a fighter" being the operable phrase - there is a large difference between "flying a fighter" and "being a fighter pilot" - Saudi "F-15 pilots" are not equivalent to US F-15 fighter pilots. Yuuuuuuuge difference. So I guess I agree with you?

So what is the difference between being a fighter pilot and flying a fighter? Smells like the old "no true scotsman" logical fallacy to me.

 

To to be clear though I agree our pilots are much higher quality. All I'm saying is if you give a dude the same training and he passes all the same check rides, he is no different than a late to rate dude direct from UPT. (I imagine being a wingman as a captain/major might be a little weird but it's not like it's never been done before) People who want to cross flow need to realize they are starting from the bottom again, but that doesn't mean they can't do the job. Additionally, no one should expect to be given a short cut. Including those that flew the T-38 in a past life, so why is that a requirement to cross flow?

Edited April 16, 2017 by Best-22

[SurelySerious]

So what is the difference between being a fighter pilot and flying a fighter? Smells the old "no true scotsman" logical fallacy to me.

From the History Friday thread because I can't figure out how to link to a post in mobile. From the man himself.






https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11649-History-Friday/page__view__findpost__p__422070

[Azimuth]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

We're getting our first AMC guys to the B-1 pretty soon.  The BUFF guys were pretty good performers through the B-course, I see no reason the AMC guys won't do just as well.

My base (-135's) just sent one to the B-1 and one to the B-52.

[ViperMan]

29 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

So what is the difference between being a fighter pilot and flying a fighter? Smells the old "no true scotsman" logical fallacy to me.

To to be clear though I agree our pilots are much higher quality. All I'm saying is if you give a dude the same training and he passes all the same check rides, he is no different than a late to rate dude direct from UPT. (I imagine being a wingman as a captain/major might be a little weird but it's not like it's never been done before) People who want to cross flow need to realize they are starting from the bottom again, but that doesn't mean they can't do the job. 

Well in any case, there is a big difference. Fly along side different "fighter pilots" who come from different cultures and backgrounds, i.e. people who may have drastically different ideas about what "fighter pilot" means (it's not just flying a pointy nosed jet), and you'll start to grasp the difference I'm talking about. In a sentence, it's about your attitude towards yourself and own flying skills, rather than a self-aggrandizing projection you put out towards the world and other people. Many pilots from other cultures don't have the right attitude towards their J.O.B., and it reflects in their Air Force's capability. Our Air Force isn't immune to those attitudes, but in general they are far less prevalent. Further, the community has a way of making those types your "one and done" crowd - of course, this all exists within the constraints of "needs of the AF" and "luck and timing are everything." Hell, you can plunk down $2K and "fly a fighter" (https://aircombat.com/flight-programs/combat-flight-programs/advanced-air-combat-tactics-maneuvering/) - I don't think anyone would argue that experience doesn't make you a fighter pilot.

3 hours ago, Best-22 said:

Lol at the gatekeeper mentality here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if it's important to the Air Force to have dudes cross flow from certain year groups, just start them in phase 3 of UPT. Proficiency advance from there as necessary. You can't pretend like only the "chosen few" with "the right stuff" in T-6's come track select time have a hope at making it. I know nobody is saying that exactly, but that's how it comes across to me as I've been lurking on these boards the past few years.

4 years after UPT as a C-17 or C-130 guy I don't see how it matters if you flew 38's in the past or not. We all know getting one in the first place is 50% skill, 50% luck, and 50% timing. I think just about every Saudi who has ever graduated UPT is proof that anyone can be taught to fly a fighter. It's just a matter of how long he syllabus should be for cross flow guys.

Lol, I don't think anyone is 'gatekeeping' as you put it, and also agree that plenty of "heavy" dudes could hack it if given the opportunity. I think the main objection to your original post was that you seemed to imply that four years spent flying C-17s/130s would somehow translate to walking right into a fighter FTU...most people's objection was to that implication.

Finally, the only real question here is if the USAF does need to pull from the MAF to staff fighter cockpits, why shouldn't they pull from those who have already spent six months flying something (T-38s) that builds the core skill set that translates directly to flying something else fast? You'll likely have greater success than if you roll the dice on those who haven't. It's a numbers game here, right? Of course there are exceptions, but if you are making decisions at an institutional level, you've got to draw the line somewhere. At the end of SUPT is probably the appropriate place to do that.

Edited April 16, 2017 by ViperMan

[Duck]

Problem with all of this is UPT isn't just full, it's overloaded and getting a mid-level Capt with only 4ish years left on his ADSC isn't as good of an investment as a 10 year slave (Lt), probably only a late rate would be better cuz you know those dudes are vested to 20 (maybe).

This battle was lost a long time ago with TAMI-21, horrible drops from 09-12ish and the VSP.

In my BA opinion, a cross flow would only work with a light strike/AT-6ish platform and call those guys 11Fs. You could grab the T-38 turned heavy guys and previous T-6/T-38 IPs. Then abuse the living hell out of them after one assignment by sending them to all those jobs the real 11Fs don't want to do, keeping them in cockpits, etc. Then replace those guys with the next batch of dudes that you don't want to send to Vipers, Eagles, etc.

Step 3: profit.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[Best-22]

Valid. I could have been more clear about what I meant. If the decision to pull guys from the MAF has already been made then we owe it to them and ourselves as a total force to train them properly.

my opinion is that If it isn't worth sending a guy through nearly the entire phase 3 of UPT again, then it isn't worth trying to cross flow people in the first place. Pretending like the T-38 is anything more than vaguely familiar to a guy 4 years removed, is just setting them up for failure. Further, if we are doing it properly anyways, and we are hurting for pilots that bad, why not make previous T-38 time just preferred instead of mandatory. Reasonable? 

[Duck]

Valid. I could have been more clear about what I meant. If the decision to pull guys from the MAF has already been made then we owe it to them and ourselves as a total force to train them properly.

my opinion is that If it isn't worth sending a guy through nearly the entire phase 3 of UPT again, then it isn't worth trying to cross flow people in the first place. Pretending like the T-38 is anything more than vaguely familiar to a guy 4 years removed, is just setting them up for failure. Further, if we are doing it properly anyways, and we are hurting for pilots that bad, why not make previous T-38 time just preferred instead of mandatory. Reasonable? 

I actually agree with you. If they put guys through a full UPT T-38 syllabus a cross flow would work as long as those guys they selected would have had the potential to succeed given the chance the first time through. Crap in crap out. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit... or something like that.

 

Problem is right now with us being overloaded at UPT phase III, it doesn't make sense to use slots on guys you will only get one assignment out of before they separate.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[ViperMan]

22 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

Valid. I could have been more clear about what I meant. If the decision to pull guys from the MAF has already been made then we owe it to them and ourselves as a total force to train them properly.

my opinion is that If it isn't worth sending a guy through nearly the entire phase 3 of UPT again, then it isn't worth trying to cross flow people in the first place. Pretending like the T-38 is anything more than vaguely familiar to a guy 4 years removed, is just setting them up for failure. Further, if we are doing it properly anyways, and we are hurting for pilots that bad, why not make previous T-38 time just preferred instead of mandatory. Reasonable? 

I agree with this. It just doesn't make good financial sense to take one guy and give him two trainings. You're literally robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're going to subtract one C-17 pilot and add one F-16 pilot (-1 + 1 = 0); net gain, zero. But yes, ultimately, if we are going to do that, they will need all the training that it takes to get someone to that spot - i.e. UPT phase 3 in T-38s plus IFF.

Whether or not it is reasonable, I think Duck hits it with the following:

30 minutes ago, Duck said:

Problem with all of this is UPT isn't just full, it's overloaded and getting a mid-level Capt with only 4ish years left on his ADSC isn't as good of an investment as a 10 year slave (Lt), probably only a late rate would be better cuz you know those dudes are vested to 20 (maybe).

This battle was lost a long time ago with TAMI-21, horrible drops from 09-12ish and the VSP.

The USAF needs to examine dollars and sense right now and also needs to understand why they aren't able to hang on to these year groups. It has little to do with the culture right now (IMO) and much more to do with the prevailing culture in which these year groups spent the previous 6-9 years growing up. People come up through a system and make decisions based on the sum total of decisions that they witnessed the AF making over their 10-yr ADSC. Few people wake up one morning in a vacuum and just pull the handle and jettison their careers. These are complex decisions people make by taking in the totality of personnel and other decisions that they see staffs making over the course of 1/2 a career. I'm not sure the Air Force realizes how important it is to maintain a consistent personnel system, deployment framework, promotion system, etc, for motivating people to stay for a career. The AF has been nothing but whiplash in those categories for far too long, and they are now reaping what they've sown.

They will make the most money by fixing the culture, and leaving it fixed. This will ensure they have a hope of holding on to the majority of dudes who still have 5+ years of ADSC remaining.

Sorry, I realize I wandered off topic there.

Edited April 16, 2017 by ViperMan

[jazzdude]

I think the goal is to grab heavy guys, that, after 1 fighter ops tour and "experienced", will be sent to fill an 11F staff billet. Less about flying a fighter, more about the AF saying "I need a body from a particular year group to fill an 11F staff billet in 4ish years, and I don't have enough 11Fs in those year groups to fill the staffs and operational requirements so I'll make some new ones via cross flow."

If that wasn't the case, I can't see a reason for cross flow. Just increase production at the UPT/FTU level to get bodies in cockpits, and you'll have them in the community much longer. A cross flow steals a FTU seat with lower payback, so there needs to be a strong reason for cross flowing them over.

[koga15]

Maybe the AF is trying to pick up some of these guys that they sent to non-fighters during the whole "no A-10s (they are getting retired) No vipers (the D models are broken), few fighters because the B courses are all very backed up" phase. And by the way we (the AF) are already in a shortage but lets only look right now and not at tomorrow when the shortage is bigger and the trained T-38 guys straight out of UPT elsewhere.  (see 15-01 to 15-03 at all UPT bases and ENJJPT)

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by koga15

[HU&W]

I just want to know if the dudes that dropped the MOAB from the MC-130 were T-1 or T-38 grads.

[Duck]

Maybe the AF is trying to pick up some of these guys that they sent to non-fighters during the whole "no A-10s (they are getting retired) No vipers (the D models are broken), few fighters because the B courses are all very backed up" phase. And by the way we (the AF) are already in a shortage but lets only look right now and not at tomorrow when the shortage is bigger and the trained T-38 guys straight out of UPT elsewhere.  (see 15-01 to 15-03 at all UPT bases and ENJJPT)
[/url]  

I am one of those guys and due to the way assignments were handled back then have no desire to "bail out" the AF, just to be the red-headed stepchild of the community. 6 years ago when I was still a young-un they might have enticed me, but now that I've seen behind the curtain... he'll no. 99% of the guys in my situation feel the same and those that are younger are delusional if they think they will have a successful career in a fighter when they are starting so late and didn't get a fighter when the assignments were 50%-75% better. Now a days if you have a pulse at the end of T-38s, you get a shot at IFF, and talking to my IFF bros, it is damn near impossible to wash dudes out. (It does still happen) Cross flow guys are literally racing against people who had a 4-6 year head start. Good luck winning that race.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[jazzdude]

I just want to know if the dudes that dropped the MOAB from the MC-130 were T-1 or T-38 grads.

Maybe they were T-44 trained...

[Best-22]

1 hour ago, Duck said:

Problem with all of this is UPT isn't just full, it's overloaded and getting a mid-level Capt with only 4ish years left on his ADSC isn't as good of an investment as a 10 year slave (Lt), probably only a late rate would be better cuz you know those dudes are vested to 20 (maybe).

This battle was lost a long time ago with TAMI-21, horrible drops from 09-12ish and the VSP.

In my BA opinion, a cross flow would only work with a light strike/AT-6ish platform and call those guys 11Fs. You could grab the T-38 turned heavy guys and previous T-6/T-38 IPs. Then abuse the living hell out of them after one assignment by sending them to all those jobs the real 11Fs don't want to do, keeping them in cockpits, etc. Then replace those guys with the next batch of dudes that you don't want to send to Vipers, Eagles, etc.

Step 3: profit.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

What a complete 180 from the "whats wrong with the air force" thread. Over there people are saying they are getting out because big Air Force and leadership treated them like shit while they were serving their ADSC. Now you are consciously making the decision to do the same with those under you? No wonder your community is begging for more pilots.