Changing/Switching airframes

[SurelySerious]

29 minutes ago, LoveDumpster said:

What happens to the aircrew of retiring airframes? Looks like they're sending 17 B-1s to the boneyard (pun?), and 6 KC-10s this year, with more in the years to come after 2021. The B-1 is about to get a gigantic jump in their manning level and crew ratio. Are they gonna send all these guys to similar airframes like the B-2/Buff or sell them all to UPT? 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/12/30/new-in-2021-older-planes-bound-for-the-boneyard/

 

AFPC is probably banking on sending them to staff, because AFPC. 

[hindsight2020]

white jet most likely, based on what I see come through PIT. The ratios still leave that community (bone) overmanned, judging by what inbounds into my sq have intimated of their time in that community, especially downrange.

[FLEA]

I would guess white jets, followed by a healthy dosing of dudes to 11R airframes for follow-ons, since that is the collection pot of every other community's runoff. 

[Danger41]

If that’s truly your only options, I’d look at going to AFSOC. We’ve got plenty of folks with diverse backgrounds and if you want to stay kinetic, it’s a great spot to go.

[Guest PeggyDriver46]

I'd love to see some sort of manning level by airframe with statistics from AFPC. They keep it in their little cave and don't share with anyone. 

For instance, if I was a tanker guy and wanted to do something else, and AFSOC/whatever was drastically undermanned and I wanted to do that, going in with that information would help a case for crossflow. 

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, LoveDumpster said:

They keep it in their little cave

Your assignment functional is more accessible now than any other time in my career. 

[hindsight2020]

5 hours ago, LoveDumpster said:

For instance, if I was a tanker guy and wanted to do something else, and AFSOC/whatever was drastically undermanned and I wanted to do that, going in with that information would help a case for crossflow. 

 

in a perfect world it would. In the real world?....

 

I've seen plenty of Marielito boatlift antics on the AETC side to know it's an actual thing coming from losing commands. I don't blame functionals from playing those metrics close to the vest as a result. Nobody likes being the last guy picked in kickball, but that's just life. I'm not advocating for it, just playing devil's advocate.

Edited January 3, 2021 by hindsight2020

[FLEA]

15 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

 

in a perfect world it would. In the real world?....

 

I've seen plenty of Marielito boatlift antics on the AETC side to know it's an actual thing coming from losing commands. I don't blame functionals from playing those metrics close to the vest as a result. Nobody likes being the last guy picked in kickball, but that's just life. I'm not advocating for it, just playing devil's advocate.

I tried to switch to AFSOC when 11R manning was 120% and 11S was 70%. I was told no, because 11R manning might tank in the future. That's about all you need to know about AFPC logic. 

[jice]

21 hours ago, LoveDumpster said:

I'd love to see some sort of manning level by airframe with statistics from AFPC. They keep it in their little cave and don't share with anyone. 

For instance, if I was a tanker guy and wanted to do something else, and AFSOC/whatever was drastically undermanned and I wanted to do that, going in with that information would help a case for crossflow. 

The crossflow game is a bit like trying to get out of a speeding ticket... your request/argument starts the conversation, but in the end doesn’t matter much
 

Luck, timing, and having folks who want to see you get there (luck). In that order.

[Guest PeggyDriver46]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

I tried to switch to AFSOC when 11R manning was 120% and 11S was 70%. I was told no, because 11R manning might tank in the future. That's about all you need to know about AFPC logic. 

Was that recent? Did those numbers come from the functional himself or is there a doc out there that you can look at it?

My prediction is this: If you want to crossflow out of the MAF or heavy ISR, there's a ticking clock. COVID is going to be over in the not so distant future, and people are going to want to travel. Airlines are going to be hiring out of the ass, and guys that already hit their commitment are going to see the light at the end of the tunnel and punch. There will be a mass exodus of MAF guys to the airlines, and manning is going to tank for those communities. Getting a release then will be nigh impossible.

[FLEA]

51 minutes ago, LoveDumpster said:

Was that recent? Did those numbers come from the functional himself or is there a doc out there that you can look at it?

My prediction is this: If you want to crossflow out of the MAF or heavy ISR, there's a ticking clock. COVID is going to be over in the not so distant future, and people are going to want to travel. Airlines are going to be hiring out of the ass, and guys that already hit their commitment are going to see the light at the end of the tunnel and punch. There will be a mass exodus of MAF guys to the airlines, and manning is going to tank for those communities. Getting a release then will be nigh impossible.

It was 3-4 years ago. I was a mid level captain. i tried it twice over 3 years. The numbers came direct from the functional.  I forget where I found them. I believe our functional put them on our road show slides. I gave up at it. If they offered now I would say no. I'm on my 3rd MWS now and tired of new quals, being a copilot every time for a year, etc... I'm set on getting out after this tour is over. AF lost me because they couldn't provide me a pathway to a rewarding career. Didn't even have to be AFSOC. Just something other than what they had me doing. 

[Bode]

Why does it not make any sense? I know quite a few who never flew the T-1 in training that are back to it now. Same with the T-6 and there are/were a select few in the T-38 as well.

It makes sense when we need instructors in UPT, experienced instructors. Not just FAIP types, although I do love the FAIP motivation.


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[ARAMP1]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:54 AM, FLEA said:

AF lost me because they couldn't provide me a pathway to a rewarding career. Didn't even have to be AFSOC. Just something other than what they had me doing. 

LOL.  Same here.  I would have taken any assignment on my dreamsheet.  Admittingly, a couple were shooting for the stars though most would have been doable.  But, the AF decided that I needed to go back to the base and airframe I PCSed from.  No thanks...7 day opted.

Two years later I'm a captain at a major airline and made O5 in the reserves....thanks for the assist, AF!

[pawnman]

17 hours ago, MyCS said:

In 2019, my functional told me if you come out of your 3 year non-flying tour a year early. I can hook you up with props to Edwards.

Non-rated CC was like cool. Make it happen.

New functional rolls in. Yeah, it's going to be T-1s to Laughlin. Gen Goldfein wants to bolster UPT. Once you're on the VML, we can't take you off.

Me: 7-day opt mic drop 🎤.

I told her I've never flown jet aircraft and T-1s make zero sense. How does this happen at AFPC? I saved the Skype DMs from the previous functional talking about Edwards. I was like I don't care...

Sounds like the buffoonery has not gotten better.  Back around 2014, we had a husband & wife in the community, both pilots, both patches.  They wanted to stay, they just wanted to stay together.  Leadership pushed for them to get squadron commands at the two different bases (Ellsworth and Dyess).  They both said "one or the other, we care more about keeping the family together than we do about our careers".  O-6s insisted on it, because it would "be a good career move" and "it's only two years" and "needs of the Air Force".  

They both decided to get out instead of taking command.

Another WSO was offered one of the SAM aggressor jobs at Red Flag.  She just wanted a break from the constant deploy-home-repeat cycles.  Told the OG/CC she just wanted to do the 3-year tour and come back to the cockpit.  OG/CC insisted that "I can't be the person who lets a WSO leave the base when we're so undermanned".  So she got out.  OG/CC now lost a WSO permanently instead of for 3 years, and some other base lost a body to fill the Red Flag spot. 

[herkbum]

Sounds like the buffoonery has not gotten better.  Back around 2014, we had a husband & wife in the community, both pilots, both patches.  They wanted to stay, they just wanted to stay together.  Leadership pushed for them to get squadron commands at the two different bases (Ellsworth and Dyess).  They both said "one or the other, we care more about keeping the family together than we do about our careers".  O-6s insisted on it, because it would "be a good career move" and "it's only two years" and "needs of the Air Force".  
They both decided to get out instead of taking command.
Another WSO was offered one of the SAM aggressor jobs at Red Flag.  She just wanted a break from the constant deploy-home-repeat cycles.  Told the OG/CC she just wanted to do the 3-year tour and come back to the cockpit.  OG/CC insisted that "I can't be the person who lets a WSO leave the base when we're so undermanned".  So she got out.  OG/CC now lost a WSO permanently instead of for 3 years, and some other base lost a body to fill the Red Flag spot. 

The married couple now in the Guard? If so, I think I hired them a few years ago.


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[pawnman]

1 hour ago, herkbum said:

 

The married couple now in the Guard? If so, I think I hired them a few years ago.


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She's out entirely, as far as I know.  But sure if he's in the guard or not.

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, MyCS said:

Some leaders are just tone deaf when it comes to family first. Not to mention the sharp decline in family heritage of serving in the armed forces. I'm going to be the last in my family. 

When I comb through social media, the younger generation seems to have a negative view of the armed forces. Especially when it comes to defense spending. They believe that funding should be used for other programs. 

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

[Harambe]

On 1/23/2021 at 4:21 PM, FLEA said:

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

Because they ruined it. All the things they’re trying to ban were the stress relief for the sacrifice. 

[Majestik Møøse]

On 1/23/2021 at 4:21 PM, FLEA said:

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

I used to have a civilian job before I decided one day to apply for an OTS pilot slot. I don’t know your background, but to those here that have only known the Air Force as a job in their adult lives (or a kush airline pilot gig afterwards that was enabled by your AF job), I would caution that the civilian world isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

In fact, it can be unimaginable doldrums where entire years run together into the same memory, and then you die. Even a non-flying AF job has more excitement than 99% of the jobs out there. It’s like an Air Force staff job, except that the things you’re doing are not important whatsoever. Maybe at staff you’re just a cog in the military machine (“Why am I working on Afghanistan stuff, we shouldn’t even be there. Balancing this stupid $690m budget”) but as an average civilian you’re more like a cog on a worn out typewriter that has already been donated to Goodwill and no one’s told you. You’re certainly not doing stuff that kids would be interested in during career day.

Plus the constant financial stress of things like a recession, COVID, and company underperformance that has nothing to do with you. Some kind of Neutron Jack comes in and deletes entire divisions overnight, college grads first. Civilian workers are cast offs and liabilities that take money directly from their bosses wallets. Your Air Force boss might be an asshole, but not like that.

All I’m saying is the grass ain’t greener, and I wouldn’t stop any of my kids from joining the military. Well maybe except the Army.

[Danger41]

100% agree on that. I had a privileged upbringing but I was 1 generation away from abject poverty on both my parents sides. Without the Air Force, I wouldn’t have had anywhere close to the opportunities I had because my dad took advantage of the programs to earn a commission, become a pilot, retire as an O-5, and go fly for the airlines. His dad dropped out in middle school and worked the line in a meat packing plant until he died at 60. If he and his brothers don’t join the AF, they’re more lower class working stiffs (nothing at all wrong with that) with much less opportunities. 
 

I always encourage military service of someone doesn’t know what to do for the benefits, reliable pay, and skills you can transfer. Join as a personnelist, do a 4 year tour, then go to college with some money in your pocket. Don’t join the infantry if that’s not your style. 

[Majestik Møøse]

Yeah, blue collar workers - aka the world’s most common jobs - are even more brutal. A high school friend’s dad retired from the factory line after 40 years of literally the same job (wrapping a wire around a wire) and died of a heart attack 2 weeks later. An anecdote for sure, but...holy shit I’ve got a pretty good life. Will I die if we get into a no-shitter with China? Maybe, but everyone will be fucked in that case anyway.

[LimaLowdown]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, FLEA said:

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

Specifically AD or the guard as well?

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, LimaLowdown said:

Specifically AD or the guard as well?

I would consider part time guard. But AD, definitely not. I've seen enough now to recognize the military in NO WAY has you or your family's welfare, anywhere near their list of top priorities. They will absolutely not hesitate to fuck you or your family in 80 different directions to make the mission happen. Thankfully I've been able to shield mine from that. But I have seen some people who's lives were absolutely crushed over some priorities that were not even close to the threshold of what I could consider operational necessity. All legal and backed by a jag. 

BTW: Spent 2 years corporate as an intern prior to entering the military. It wasn't nearly that bad. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by FLEA

[Sua Sponte]

With the DoD shit canning the High-3 retirement system, there's literally no reason to do more than your initial commitment for the G.I. Bill, security clearance, VA stuff, etc. I got better 401K matching with my part-time job at Apple than military personnel do.

[jazzdude]

With the DoD shit canning the High-3 retirement system, there's literally no reason to do more than your initial commitment for the G.I. Bill, security clearance, VA stuff, etc. I got better 401K matching with my part-time job at Apple than military personnel do.

Does that 401k matching also include a defined benefit and retirement healthcare in the retirement benefits package? It's about the whole retirement package, not just one aspect. There are great retirement plans out there in the civilian world (UPS seems to have a great one with both 401k contributions and pension)

GI bill transfer to a kid is also valuable; essentially puts one kid fully through college with very little to no debt without the need for scholarships or grants. Though I suppose if you have a kid before you have 6 years in service, you'll have the transfer commitment complete when your UPT commitment expires. If you have your first kid later in life, well, you can't transfer the benefit without incurring some extra commitment of you want the transfer benefit.

Sure, BRS sucks compared to high-3 IF you make it to 20 and retire. BRS is fine if you're a going enlisted person only doing one enlistment compared to the old system. If you're somewhere between, then you at least get a small retirement benefit (I'd bet smaller than most big businesses will match) to keep the pension as a carrot for retention.