Changing/Switching airframes

[Bobsan]

4 minutes ago, Stitch said:

He said the other guys had a completely different outlook on flying, not cocky or overly aggressive, just different, and that made them what they were.

 

47 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Give me a MAF guy who really wants to fly fighters and has a kickass aggressive attitude and he/she will do fine.

Aspiring fighter pilot here. Can some of you experienced guys elaborate on the right attitude and outlook on flying to be successful as a fighter pilot?

Has the "right stuff" changed from Tom Wolfe's definition?

[Duck]

I agree attitude is crucial. I just don't see Big Blue taking care of these guys at all. You also have to admit that opportunities (aka cockpits) have dwindled A LOT since the 90s. I have no doubt in my mind there are guys who could/would be successful. I doubt they get the chance.

[TreeA10]

25 minutes ago, Bobsan said:

 

Aspiring fighter pilot here. Can some of you experienced guys elaborate on the right attitude and outlook on flying to be successful as a fighter pilot?

Has the "right stuff" changed from Tom Wolfe's definition?

IMHO:  Cockiness.  You have to believe you can win and you will win because the other guy(s) suck.  Controlled aggressiveness.  Push the rules and the jet right up to, and maybe a smidgen over, limits.  Go full throttle.  You have to go "all in."  There is no room for half hearted efforts on the range, in theater, or in the books.  This can and does get carried over into life outside the squadron which "The Right Stuff" does capture well.

[Danger41]

If your lifelong dream is to fly a fighter and it didn't work out for you in UPT for whatever reason, I say jump at it. I flew Eagles for a much shorter time than I flew U-28's and I look back on that time very fondly. Don't give into the Baseops "everything sucks" mantra, and make your own decision. Trust me, the first time you strap on a fighter and go rage around, it will be worth it.  If you don't go for it because of whatever reason, you'll regret it and have that "what if" thing.

And if you want to be successful in fighters/tactical military aviation, you've got to be confident. To become confident, you better work your ass off. If you don't work for it and still think you're the best, you're out to lunch and are a joke. Fortune favors the prepared. 

 

[Bode]

Well the the question is being asked in AETC sq's as well now. I just threw my name in the bucket for this, I'm willing to give it a shot and see what works out.

So what if I get three years in a bomber/fighter and then get stuck doing a staff tour somewhere. The nice thing. Most Capts will complete the FTU with 3-5 years left on their commitment meaning they get a couple years possibly doing what they had always dreamed of and then something else and they will be able to punch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bode]

You at XL? If so then bet I know who...he used to be in my sqdn, doesn't surprise me one bit lol.

Like Fuzz said; I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a ploy to get more "11F" bodies for staff jobs. If that's the case, then why waste time getting them in fighters at all...they've used other 11X's to fill them in the past. What's a young major (or major-select) that's just a wingman gonna bring to that table anyways?

Does his last name rhyme with Bolt?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jaded]

Remember that hours are harder to come by in fighters. Make sure you have enough hours for your ATP before you volunteer.

[WheelsOff]

23 minutes ago, Lstcause257 said:

Does his last name rhyme with Bolt?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, like I said, not surprised, ha. Best of luck to him...hope he can punch afterwards...he's not the type to want to do a staff gig.

Edited August 26, 2016 by WheelsOff

[Clark Griswold]

11 hours ago, Muscle2002 said:

Your advice is probably true for any pilot. That and learning to fly without a HUD, flight director, FPM et cetera...that is, refresh the skill of flying by looking outside.

Valid - the discipline to regress to lower automation has to be instilled and enforced.  If I were king, every flying wing would have access to an aircraft like this for basic airmanship skill building and maintenance:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aermacchi_M-290_RediGO

10 hours ago, Duck said:

I am a product of AMC myself. All I know is once I got put on the "path": Exec, Shop Chief, Flt/CC, ADO... My leadership raised eyebrows when I would try to get on the road, deploy, etc. I had 2 deployments that I volunteered for denied and was taken off countless business efforts, trips etc... I was barely flying a couple times a month and that was mainly with copilots who needed the work more than I did. So I definitely get the struggle. I don't really blame the player, I blame the game.

Having said that, we are getting a lot of well-strated MAF dudes that are getting crushed in T-6 PIT. Not to say that being the #1/2 guy is mutually exclusive to retaining those basic flying skills learned in UPT, because some dudes come in and fly through the program.

Also flying the T-38 for 96 hours in UPT doesn't necessarily correlate that you have better stick skills than a dude who didn't. We have T-38 guys come through who suck and T-1 dudes who are well above what I expect a guy coming to PIT.

I say all this as a guy who was a T-38 dude back during the "Universally Assignable" days. Talking to my bros on the Fighter side... I wouldn't accept a cross-flow to the other side for anything, but then again this is my last assignment and I am getting out.

TL/DR

1. AMC is not a good predictor of good pilots/future leadership.

2. Just cuz you flew the T-38 in UPT, you still may suck.

3. I would love to go fly fighters, but I don't trust the AF and wouldn't take the crossflow pill, regardless of what Blue promises.

4. I am getting out ASAFP

AMC was my first MAJCOM also so I know what you are talking about.  Referencing the above fantasy program of a low cost, recip powered, acro capable light trainer - that is something that could help dudes whose flight hours are probably 75% autopilot time (yours truly included in that also) but AMC and the AF don't see it that way.  Unless there was some demonstrated need, basically a rash of accidents, they would never allow an ACE program, even a watered down one that is budgetary peanuts, ever happen again. 

What you saw is what is the most easily observable problem in the culture of the AF or an aspect of "the problem" - the belief that the administration / management of the AF is either indicative of military leadership potential or the performance of military leadership.  Not true as the titles to the job sound like the performance of military duties (mission execution, military leadership, etc...) but in reality are almost all mundane duties of paperwork, meaningless regulation compliance assurance, and exercise with the sole intention of just looking busy / productive. 

I am digressing into a stream of consciousness riff probably better suited for the "What's wrong with the AF thread?" but I suspect that in the heavy community the respect for flying skills / airmanship is not necessarily low but just secondary to office politics and the infatuation with office work proficiency.  Not sure about the CAF and SOF flying world as I have not served an assignment there, worked with them, but not a full 3 year tour to give me enough first hand knowledge to make a semi-informed opinion but I suspect that as the likelihood they will be in harm's way is more often, it gives them more focus, not a slight of the MAF, just my opinion. 

As to crossflow for fighters for a heavy driver if you are offered and you want it, go for it, don't look back 10 years later and regret not trying.  If I were in the position of someone who could apply I would.  You have to make the right call for you and your family but if you want to, don't just think about all the shit that can go wrong, think of the shit that might go right.  Be honest with yourself and consider your ability to pass all the schools you will have to attend but worse than the self-imposed, unnecessary shame a lot of Type A personalities will impose on themselves if they fail at something is WAY less than the shame of not doing or going for something that you wanted and when life gave you the chance to go for it, you passed because you were afraid of the stigma of possible failure so you did not even try.

Just my 2 cents, I have no skin in this game but an opinion worth what you paid for it.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Clark Griswold

[Ram]

MAF guys coming to the CAF?

I can't speak for everyone, but as for ME, I'm really looking forward to all those esprit-de-corps building MAF squadron traditions they'll certainly bring with them to my squadron. Wheeeee...can't wait.

[di1630]

Aspiring fighter pilot here. Can some of you experienced guys elaborate on the right attitude and outlook on flying to be successful as a fighter pilot?

Has the "right stuff" changed from Tom Wolfe's definition?

Man, I'll be honest, flying fighters isn't what you see in the movies. Hell, it's not even what it was 15 years ago and I'll tell you why.....Technology.

Don't get the idea that it's rolling in on a soviet tank in a 60 degree dive and pulling the trigger or saddling up on the 6 of a mig-29 with thrust vectoring to employ your gun.

It's just not like that. I won't say it could never happen but nowadays with bombs that can guide themselves to where you are looking with your helmet mounted sight or data linked missiles....you don't need to be chuck Yeager or robin olds reincarnated to be a good fighter pilot these days with the stick and rudder skills.

You will find however the successful fighter guys all have common attributes that allow them to work well as a team, problem solve, multi task, perform under pressure.

The biggest thing is you have to want it. A lot of dudes want to be fighter pilots but don't understand the reality of it. Hard work, long days, kicks in the junk by your IP's...but it all pays off.

It's an awesome job but again, not what you see on TV and 50 year old stories.

[pcola]

I thought the problem with increasing #s of 11Fs was in the IFF - B course pipeline capacity? How does injecting crossflow pilots into that pipeline solve anything? The only thing I can imagine is that they are looking to create more 11F Majors...which solves the numbers problem on the spreadsheets but does nothing for the experience shortage. I'd call this another shell game by the bean counters attempting to hide a serious problem.

[Kenny Powers]

di1630s post is pretty spot on. If you don't really want to be there, the workload will probably make you miserable, especially as a new guy in the fighter world that probably performed well in his/her previous airframe, and now is getting his/her nuts crushed learning the new mission.

Flying the jet, at least the Viper, is relatively simple and ing awesome. Managing formations, weapons, sensors, timelines, etc. can be very task saturating depending on the mission and mostly a function of your ability to multi task, prioritize, and your brains ability to operate under pressure and faster than you could ever imagine.

I agree that anyone who ever wanted to fly fighters should give it a shot. I also agree that just about anyone with a good attitude and willingness to work their butt off will fit in just fine.

The last thing I would say is that this job is ing dangerous. Just flying formation and trying to employ tactically can turn bad very quick if you don't prioritize your task. And keep in mind, our job is to kill shit, while other shit is trying to kill us. You gotta be cool with that.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[daynightindicator]

1 hour ago, di1630 said:

Man, I'll be honest, flying fighters isn't what you see in the movies. Hell, it's not even what it was 15 years ago and I'll tell you why.....Technology.

Don't get the idea that it's rolling in on a soviet tank in a 60 degree dive and pulling the trigger or saddling up on the 6 of a mig-29 with thrust vectoring to employ your gun.

It's just not like that. I won't say it could never happen but nowadays with bombs that can guide themselves to where you are looking with your helmet mounted sight or data linked missiles....you don't need to be chuck Yeager or robin olds reincarnated to be a good fighter pilot these days with the stick and rudder skills.

You will find however the successful fighter guys all have common attributes that allow them to work well as a team, problem solve, multi task, perform under pressure.

The biggest thing is you have to want it. A lot of dudes want to be fighter pilots but don't understand the reality of it. Hard work, long days, kicks in the junk by your IP's...but it all pays off.

It's an awesome job but again, not what you see on TV and 50 year old stories.

Out of curiosity, do you guys do things like "BFM Friday" or other things to practice the lost arts?  Or are the sorties/hours/upgrade limitations bad enough that you have to focus 100% on current tech/tactics/weapons?

We had similar issues in the Bone...between the number of MQT and upgrade studs, and constantly evolving TTPs for new weapons and threats, we had little time left to just rage around low level building airmanship and stick/rudder skills.  About the only thing that ever caught traction was doing a GPS-out day every week, but that had leadership buy-in due to projected contested environments.

Also, so as not to derail the thread too much...I think this projected MAF/CAF swap will have less detrimental affect on the bomber community.  If you have the right attitude, you'll most likely succeed.  We've had a few bad experiences with dudes straight out of T-1s but they weren't the norm, and the one constant among them was attitude.  The herbivore, risk-adverse dude will have trouble, at least in the B-1.  Even with good hands, you'll have problems with your peers when it comes to mission management and leadership.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by daynightindicator

[Kenny Powers]

My squadron trains in phases, I think most do. So we might be in a BFM phase for a couple weeks, then a CAS phase for a few weeks, then SEAD...

In my limited experience, we use all our gas for training. There might be opportunities to do some fun stuff along the way but it's usually all business.

That being said, a lot of the stuff we do is pretty freaking cool.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[11F]

BFM is not a "lost art." If you are calling BFM art, the USAF air-to-air fighter communities are full Picassos.

As for the MAF to CAF transitions I had a FS/DO back in the day who came from the C-141...slightly above average DO with slightly below average hands.

I expect these crossovers will have a higher percentage of below average pilots who can hack the queep, be a bro, and have a great attitude. IMHO, in small numbers, those dudes are fine additions to the CAF. Not everyone can be God's gift to BFM like me (I kid, I kid)...but seriously, they can't.

[Sprkt69]

I just envision AFPC punishing these poor soles severely for cross training so late in their career. 

[Duck]

If they would let these guys progress like a normal wingman without holding it against them at promotion boards, I honestly believe we could create good fighter pilots to the point that you wouldn't know they had flown anything else.

My view is that the AF doesn't really need more "fighter pilots" but more 11Fs to fill billets.

[daynightindicator]

BFM is not a "lost art." If you are calling BFM art, the USAF air-to-air fighter communities are full Picassos.

As for the MAF to CAF transitions I had a FS/DO back in the day who came from the C-141...slightly above average DO with slightly below average hands.

I expect these crossovers will have a higher percentage of below average pilots who can hack the queep, be a bro, and have a great attitude. IMHO, in small numbers, those dudes are fine additions to the CAF. Not everyone can be God's gift to BFM like me (I kid, I kid)...but seriously, they can't.

Sorry, poor word choice on my part. Valid for a kill. Color me white.

Really I was wondering if you've seen any impact on readiness due to lack of sorties and/or flying hours. I know we have.

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, Duck said:

If they would let these guys progress like a normal wingman without holding it against them at promotion boards, I honestly believe we could create good fighter pilots to the point that you wouldn't know they had flown anything else.

My view is that the AF doesn't really need more "fighter pilots" but more 11Fs to fill billets.

 

AFPC and HAF just wants their slides to be greened up. So if the promotion board is what you are worried about, it should not be an issue.

[11F]

Sorry, poor word choice on my part. Valid for a kill. Color me white.

Really I was wondering if you've seen any impact on readiness due to lack of sorties and/or flying hours. I know we have.

I was just having fun with the word choice.

There's no loss in BFM skills or any of the basics like that for two reasons:

1) It only takes a two-ship. If a planned LFE has fallout, the basics are easy pickup games with no planning required.

2) It's fun and every fighter pilot worth his salt wants to fly it and beat the other guy.

[MooseAg03]

Any rumors of this making it to RPA squadrons? Our manning is "getting better" and dudes are slowly being released back to cockpits. I haven't heard a peep...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duck]

 

AFPC and HAF just wants their slides to be greened up. So if the promotion board is what you are worried about, it should not be an issue.

I'm not worried about anything.

What I am saying is that these guys are not going to be expected to just be wingmen and learn the jet, which is the right way to do this. They are going to have to take jobs equal to their rank for the sake of "progression". My question for you all is why? Why would Big Blue do this? I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with "for the good of the pilot". Realistically, you are getting a 2d Lt Wingman in a Major/or soon to be. They aren't going to have the credibility to be the old guy in the squadron, so what is the best way Big Blue can use them?

11F required billets not requiring flying.

Sure you will get your 200-300 hours, just in time to be an "experienced" dude. Then wham off to do all those second/third tier jobs/staff that would be wasted on dudes that have spent 4-6 more years in your Fighter.

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer, but I would just say think critically about this. I am also not trying to discourage anyone. Hell, 4 years ago, I would have jumped on this like BQZip's mom.

The right time to divert these guys from their MWS is not when they are mid-level/senior Capts (Which is where most of the dudes who went through UPT during the drawdown are now) but really within 2 years of them getting to their heavy MWS. So standard AF: too little. Too late.

[PlanePhlyer]

What about the dudes who could care less about progression and just want the one chance to fly their dream jet?  It seems like a cool adventure for some whose mission set is less dynamic we'll say. Not saying they won't meet the demise you speak of, but some dudes may give zero craps about that number one strat or any strat for that matter. 

[brabus]

I agree with everyone here saying dudes should go for it if flying a fighter/bomber is what they've always wanted.  But, the "negative" queep job/career stuff laid out here will most likely be reality for the majority.  Doesn't matter if they don't give a shit about strats, that's not going to be enough to keep them flying and out of non-fighter/bomber flying gigs, staff, guess who's going to suck up the random deployment to ballsjerkistan, etc.  Bottom line, they'll be competing on the VML with peers who are lightyears ahead of them - its not rocket science to see they'll most likely get the left overs.  Dudes considering this crossover should be prepared for only one assignment while being at the OSS/Wing damn near the entire time.  And for those who it works out for and they continue on in the CAF/avoid the avalanche of bullshit, great for them, but that should not be the expectation going in.  On another plus side, IFF/B-Course/MQT will give them a solid 1-1.5 years of nearly zero queep and only focused on tactics, which will certainly be a welcomed break.