Changing/Switching airframes

[Jaded]

What is a fighter pilot? Is it someone who has a 9 month B course? A 6 month B course? A 3 month B course? A 20 ride MQT? A 5 ride MQT? Flies 10 times a month? Flies 5 times a month?

Do you think they're going to fix the problem or redefine the problem?

[Bode]

We can drop fighters to all of UPT, there is gonna be a serious backlog at the FTUs. Guard/Res (i.e., AD can't just make us fly 3 gos) make up about half of viper and hog FTU and all of eagle FTU. Some Guard units have already said "fvck off" to the AD "order" to cut the syllabus by 20%. We can't just wave a magic wand and make FAIPs into fighter pilots. 

So what ever happened to the days of working for the better good? Maybe flying that 3rd go or agreeing to cut the syllabus by 10% or so? Just seems like the AGRs I have met (title 10 guys) work 8 hours a day and what ever happens after that they don't care. I guess my theory of being on an "active duty" status doesn't mean work what is required to get the job done.


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[Duck]

We just picked up a -38 grad to MC-12's, now in the F-16 RTU.

From what I understand, a couple MC-12 guys were assigned to The Viper via the normal assignment process and a strong push from the Wing/CC, when the AF divested itself from the mission. All the rest were sent to RPAs and UPT.

[Duck]

We can drop fighters to all of UPT, there is gonna be a serious backlog at the FTUs. Guard/Res (i.e., AD can't just make us fly 3 gos) make up about half of viper and hog FTU and all of eagle FTU. Some Guard units have already said "fvck off" to the AD "order" to cut the syllabus by 20%. We can't just wave a magic wand and make FAIPs into fighter pilots. 

This was just talked about during the last 19th AF telecon. The jist was "whatever it takes". If we have to force IPs to fly every weekend for the foreseeable future, so be it. That's what will happen. The numbers will work and we will meet the fighter pilot quota.

Fence-in boys, it's about to hit the fan.

[Jaded]

1 minute ago, Lstcause257 said:

 

So what ever happened to the days of working for the better good? Maybe flying that 3rd go or agreeing to cut the syllabus by 10% or so? Just seems like the AGRs I have met (title 10 guys) work 8 hours a day and what ever happens after that they don't care. I guess my theory of being on an "active duty" status doesn't mean work what is required to get the job done.


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LOL. Who said they balked because they didn't want to work the hours? They balked because it's dangerous to put guys through a even more shortened RTU. It's already a shadow of what it was just 10 years ago.

Get some perspective before you bash on the guard. Talking about people "working for the better good" false on deaf ears when you're referring to a lot of people who've already served 10+ years on active duty.

[ViperStud]

Valid question. The guard and reserves are built around a technician schedule, 40 hrs a week + AFTPs.  The bulk of our force (look beyond pilots) are techs.  The govt did this on purpose, to get more bodies into the mil business while disguised as civilians. They get a better work schedule, but pay for it in reduced benefits and a crap retirement. 

you got what you wanted, so do we fly a 3rd and pay them all that overtime? Well, wait - that's not what we structured the guard to do!?!  

Bottom line, it's a lot more complicated than your little AD mind can comprehend. Telling the RC to suck it up has consequences, and for good reason. We are not here to compensate for incompetent AD management. 

[Bode]

LOL. Who said they balked because they didn't want to work the hours? They balked because it's dangerous to put guys through a even more shortened RTU. It's already a shadow of what it was just 10 years ago.

Get some perspective before you bash on the guard. Talking about people "working for the better good" false on deaf ears when you're referring to a lot of people who've already served 10+ years on active duty.

Am I bashing on anyone? Just simply asking a question. I worked in TFI units for the last 15 years so I have a little perspective. I have seen AGRs stick around to get the job done while the technicians can't because they are civilians. I can't claim to understand every bit of it however I can say I have some understanding.

I never want anyone to take un necessary risks but it's not just the AD that will fail. It will be the entire force failing to keep us safe.

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[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, Lstcause257 said:

So what ever happened to the days of working for the better good? Maybe flying that 3rd go or agreeing to cut the syllabus by 10% or so? Just seems like the AGRs I have met (title 10 guys) work 8 hours a day and what ever happens after that they don't care. I guess my theory of being on an "active duty" status doesn't mean work what is required to get the job done.

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No.

The problems the shoe clerks have created are now coming home to roost and in typical fashion, rather than just doing what needs to be done and write a big enough check, admit their mistakes and CHANGE when conditions warrant it they prefer to put the lash to force, deny their is a problem and give each other a high five when the system some how manages to creak along.

So flying that third line for a few months is going to somehow overcome years and years of getting deeper and deeper into the hole?  

The number varies but let's settle on 700 fighter pilots that the USAF is short of, I would say to get a fighter pilot with the right experience and knowledge they want it takes 3 to 4 years, as a heavy pilot my knowledge is limited but as a WAG but seems reasonable.  Now let's say they could get by with only filling 500 of the 700 cockpits/shelters/staff positions, so you need 500 x 4 or 2,000 man-years of MPA orders, that comes to about $352 million, or a little more than 2 F-35A Joint Shit Fighters or fly 400 heavy aircraft 40 hours less per year over 4 years and you will get the savings to pay for it.  Re-program the money after doing your mea culpa to Congress and fix this.  

 A 4 year statutory order will attract takers; long enough for a lot of them to get 7305+ points, under 5 years to assert USERRA and if you throw a bonus for those 4 years at 25K, you will get the 11Fs you need immediately all the while you are executing Operation Get Well on 11Fs, surging UPT / IFF / FTU and returning all 11Fs you can get out of the RPA career field without destroying that too.

This is a complicated web to unravel without causing harm in another area at the same time but Big Blue putting its money where its mouth is and using the resources it has, ARC Fighter Pilots to solve the immediate problem while working like a crazy man to solve the long term problem is the only way to get this done.  

No guilt trip speeches or High Velocity Analysis efforts, just commit the resources and get it done.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Clark Griswold

[Bode]

Valid question. The guard and reserves are built around a technician schedule, 40 hrs a week + AFTPs.  The bulk of our force (look beyond pilots) are techs.  The govt did this on purpose, to get more bodies into the mil business while disguised as civilians. They get a better work schedule, but pay for it in reduced benefits and a crap retirement. 

you got what you wanted, so do we fly a 3rd and pay them all that overtime? Well, wait - that's not what we structured the guard to do!?!  

Bottom line, it's a lot more complicated than your little AD mind can comprehend. Telling the RC to suck it up has consequences, and for good reason. We are not here to compensate for incompetent AD management. 

My "little AD mind" probably comprehends more than you think. I've seen AGRs work 20 hour days to hack the mission and I see them work 10 hours quite frequently. Last I checked I said AGRs not technicians. I personally don't know how many AGRs vs ARTs are floating around.


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[ViperStud]

12 minutes ago, Lstcause257 said:

 

My "little AD mind" probably comprehends more than you think. I've seen AGRs work 20 hour days to hack the mission and I see them work 10 hours quite frequently. Last I checked I said AGRs not technicians. I personally don't know how many AGRs vs ARTs are floating around.


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Precisely my point.  Every AGR counts against AD end-strength numbers, so since Welsh cut 5 yrs in 1 yr we have been hurting on AGRs. The bulk of the RC are techs; if they were all AGRs then we would be admitting we need more AD and the game wold be over. I won't speak to the work ethic of AGRs since I've seen both ends. The reality is, they are the minority.  Pay a tech less with shitty benefits and you shouldn't be surprised when the RC says "GFY."

If you want full-time benefits and to be treated like a military member, don't be a tech. Then, when management tries to pull a guilt trip, tell them to GFY.

Edited September 5, 2016 by ViperStud

[Duck]

From the discussion w/ 19th AF, the ARC wasn't even mentioned. They are planing on opening an additional RTU (F-16, IIRC) and with that I expect those AD RTUs will be shouldering the "fly as long as it takes, screw QOL" load. Crushing the remaining IPs left on AD. I expect maybe they try to pressure the AGR guys into weekend flying and whatnot, but if you think they are going to "pay" for it with cash... Yeah right! Why do that when you can just force all us slaves to work weekends and extra hours.

[brickhistory]

5 hours ago, Duck said:

From the discussion w/ 19th AF, the ARC wasn't even mentioned. They are planing on opening an additional RTU (F-16, IIRC) and with that I expect those AD RTUs will be shouldering the "fly as long as it takes, screw QOL" load. Crushing the remaining IPs left on AD. I expect maybe they try to pressure the AGR guys into weekend flying and whatnot, but if you think they are going to "pay" for it with cash... Yeah right! Why do that when you can just force all us slaves to work weekends and extra hours.

Soooo, the fix is to burn out the IPs in the training pipeline to fix the shortfall in line fighter manning which was destroyed by burning out the line fighter units...

CSAF within a couple of years:  "Hey, A1, how come we are so short of RTU IPs AND line fighter pilots?"

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, Lstcause257 said:

 

So what ever happened to the days of working for the better good? Maybe flying that 3rd go or agreeing to cut the syllabus by 10% or so? Just seems like the AGRs I have met (title 10 guys) work 8 hours a day and what ever happens after that they don't care. I guess my theory of being on an "active duty" status doesn't mean work what is required to get the job done.


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So General Goldfein already believes we have less than half the training we need, and you want to shorten the FTU by another 10%?  I don't see any possible way that can go wrong.

Also, flying that third go requires enough manpower that you can make it happen and still maintain crew rest, brief and debrief, provide a SOF, provide a Top 3, and do academics and sims.  Not to mention the MX costs.

[baileynme]

From what I understand, a couple MC-12 guys were assigned to The Viper via the normal assignment process and a strong push from the Wing/CC, when the AF divested itself from the mission. All the rest were sent to RPAs and UPT.

Not all, I know two that "escaped" to the KC-135.

[B.L]

Not all, I know two that "escaped" to the KC-135.

From my count we had two get vipers one get a bone. Several went MAF. Then the rest were split between AETC (somewhere in the mid 20-30s) and RPAs (40 dropped in one day!). With a couple of ALOs mixed in.

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So General Goldfein already believes we have less than half the training we need, and you want to shorten the FTU by another 10%?  I don't see any possible way that can go wrong.

Also, flying that third go requires enough manpower that you can make it happen and still maintain crew rest, brief and debrief, provide a SOF, provide a Top 3, and do academics and sims.  Not to mention the MX costs.

Exactly. At my unit, we have a bunch of open tech jobs for both pilots and MX. The jets are on their ass. They're old and we don't have the MX personnel to fix them. We are lucky to get through two flying periods without an MND, so how exactly are we going to shit out a 3rd go?  

It's incredibly naive to think you can just order some AGRs to work 12-hr days and the problem will be solved. Years and years of "do more with less" have left us with a skeleton crew incapable of surging. I was TDY to Luke this summer and one of the viper SQs there had 5 assigned AD IPs - CC, patch, scheduler, ADO and flight commander. DO was on the way but being filled with a reserve dude in the interim. Even if you give them credit for 6 dudes, how do you surge with that?  This idea that your can just order military members to make it happen ignores SO MANY problems. 

[HU&W]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So General Goldfein already believes we have less than half the training we need, and you want to shorten the FTU by another 10%?  I don't see any possible way that can go wrong.

Also, flying that third go requires enough manpower that you can make it happen and still maintain crew rest, brief and debrief, provide a SOF, provide a Top 3, and do academics and sims.  Not to mention the MX costs.

That's an easy fix, just rewrite 11-202v3 [/sarcasm]

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So General Goldfein already believes we have less than half the training we need, and you want to shorten the FTU by another 10%?  I don't see any possible way that can go wrong.

Also, flying that third go requires enough manpower that you can make it happen and still maintain crew rest, brief and debrief, provide a SOF, provide a Top 3, and do academics and sims.  Not to mention the MX costs.

HAF A3 has already said that the CAF will accept the risk of a lesser FTU product. I would bet good money they have not thought through what that actually means for the guys on the line

This kind of AD leadership is what got us into this mess in the first place and are continuing to dig the hole deeper

[Jaded]

What is the "top qualified FAIP pool?"

[Duck]

What is the "top qualified FAIP pool?"

Is that like the starting point guard for St. Marys School for the Blind and Death?

[Duck]

I'm sorry, but opening this up to T-1 FAIPs is not even going to dent the problem. Letting MAF dudes go be 11Fs isn't going to fix the problem, giving fighters to every booger eater that goes through UPT certainly won't fix the problem.

Poor leadership, poor people management, not truly valuing your people and placing acquisitions priority #1 over your people. Plus for about 3-4 years we almost completely shut the 11F pipeline down. Those year groups would have been your young Maj/Senior Capts/IP types. Now those dudes mostly VSP'd back when they had their 3 opportunities to do so because the AF said "leave, someone will take your place."

[Clark Griswold]

21 minutes ago, Duck said:

Poor leadership, poor people management, not truly valuing your people and placing acquisitions priority #1 over your people.

... Now those dudes mostly VSP'd back when they had their 3 opportunities to do so because the AF said "leave, someone will take your place."

Delta Hotel

[AdiosAETC]

1 hour ago, RonaldRAGIN said:

I'm just curious that if we're so short on fighters why not also take from the top qualified FAIP pool. I'm sure a lot of them would be willing to even incur a longer commitment or wait an extended period to get their training. Seems like a reasonable thing to do but then again I don't have an extensive idea of how the Air Force works on a large scale. 

Not a viable option, for reasons said previously. Additionally, getting through a fighter RTU is really f***ing hard. I'm fresh off of my FAIP tour and in the RTU right now, and I can't think of a whole lot outside the I-check that being a FAIP helped at all with. I don't know if more T-1 guys would wash out or not, but there are T-38 background FAIPs that washout fairly regularly. 

I know that we did do a MAF to CAF cross flow in the late 90s and there were a few success stories. But whether it was 20 years ago or now, it's nothing more than a bandaid to cover up gross mismanagement of personnel. 

[brickhistory]

But like the last Star Wars movie, Big Blue thinks the answer is yet another Death Star with that same goofy design flaw that lets fighters blow it up after running the obligatory flak gauntlet.  (Side note:  how come space IADS leaves out the SAM part?  But I digress.)

You'd think both USAF and the Empire/First Order could learn from history...

 

 

[pawnman]

52 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

But like the last Star Wars movie, Big Blue thinks the answer is yet another Death Star with that same goofy design flaw that lets fighters blow it up after running the obligatory flak gauntlet.  (Side note:  how come space IADS leaves out the SAM part?  But I digress.)

You'd think both USAF and the Empire/First Order could learn from history...

 

 

Lasers move faster than missiles.