Army Aviation and service information

[Guest Coner]

hello,

i have a few stupid questions. i'm a little ignorant...so bear with me please.

1)are warant's treated the same way as commisioned guys. for example do you salute a warrant?

2) are warrant's ever given a ground tour like in the marines, navy, and air farce.

3) i was told that most guys wanna fly the blackhawk as a preferred airframe, and that the apache's are usually the least desired airframe. is this true?

4) and lastly, don't think i'm just after the image or anything, i'm simply curious. do army aviators get the leather jacket's and all the bell's and whistle's that you would see a naval aviator get.

thank you

cheers

[Guest HueyPilot]

1)are warant's treated the same way as commisioned guys. for example do you salute a warrant?

Pretty much. In fact, after two years of service as a warrant officer, you're given a commission. Warrants in the Army go to the Officer's Club, get saluted, wear the officer piping on the dress uniform (but with distinctive warrant officer devices), and have the blue officer stickers on their cars.

2) are warrant's ever given a ground tour like in the marines, navy, and air farce.

No. Army warrant officers are technical specialists in their field only, so if you're a pilot, you stay in aviation. There may be opportunities later in a career to do staff jobs, but those will still be with aviation-related units. And just a technicality, the USAF no longer has warrant officers.

3) i was told that most guys wanna fly the blackhawk as a preferred airframe, and that the apache's are usually the least desired airframe. is this true?

This is true, at least it was when I graduated IERW back in 1997. The UH-60/CH-47s went first. There were a few who wanted Apaches or Kiowa Warriors first and got them, but the majority of the class wanted 'Hawks or Chinooks. This is because those airframes fly more, and get to see a very wide range of missions.

4) and lastly, don't think i'm just after the image or anything, i'm simply curious. do army aviators get the leather jacket's and all the bell's and whistle's that you would see a naval aviator get.

Army aviators do not wear leather jackets. The Army has always been very keen on maintaining a "tactical" look, so all patches are subdued, and you wear the sage green flight jackets that everyone is issued. The Army had it's own olive drab flight jacket, but they stopped making them, and you can probably find a few floating around in surplus stores, and they are highly valued because they are much more comfortable than the rather stiff green flight jackets that are issued.

[Guest thebronze]

Coner,

If you're thinking of being an Army Aviator, you'd better do some more research, as it sounds like you have no idea what it's about. Army Aviators, by their mission and purpose, do everything close to the ground (with a few exceptions). Most of the time they're in "field" conditions and living in a tent (and not a hotel). Army Aviators have it rougher than any other pilots in the military. It sounds like this is a total surprise to you, so my advice is to do some more research...

[Guest HueyPilot]

If you're thinking of being an Army Aviator, you'd better do some more research, as it sounds like you have no idea what it's about

Apparently you don't have much of a clue either.

Army Aviators, by their mission and purpose, do everything close to the ground

So do A-10 and MC-130 pilots...but it doesn't mean their jobs suck.

Most of the time they're in "field" conditions and living in a tent (and not a hotel).

So? All the F-15E, F-16, KC-135, etc...they were all in tents over in theater too. If you want to stay in a hotel and avoid tents, go fly for Delta.

Army Aviators have it rougher than any other pilots in the military

As opposed to the Marine Cobra crews living in tents and flying out of various locations within Iraq? Or the MC-130 crews living in tents in theater? The Army trains its helicopter crews to operate out of austere locations because they depend on the helicopters to be there when the shooting starts. If a 5-Star hotel is not within close proximity, that's just tough. Living in the field is not the "bad" part of flying for the Army.

Get a clue.

Now, for those who are interested in the REAL bad side of the Army, it's the 9-12 month deployments (versus 45, 60 or 90 days in the AF), and having to be "owned" by an infantry commander. In the Air Force and Navy, pilots are near the top of the food chain. In the Army, they are often considered the "pretty boys", and earn contempt from their Infantry/Armor/Cavalry peers (except, of course, when they are desperately calling for that suppressive fire from an Apache or yelling for that Black Hawk to pull them out of a hot LZ).

Because the Army is run by the infantry, the aviation program is bare-bones compared to the more robust AF and Navy flying programs. You'll log about 150-200 hours a year in a non-deployed status, versus 250-500+ hours a year for AF and Navy pilots. Pilot proficiency just isn't taken as seriously with the Army brass.

That aside, being a warrant officer is like being part of a fraternity. Commissioned guys envy you (or hate you), and enlisted folks respect you. Your job is to fly helicopters, and that's it. Very few reasons to write OERs and deal with staff/office bull (or not as much as you would have being a commissioned guy).

Living and working with the grunts, wearing face paint, waking up in a tent and slogging through the mud to your helicopter in the rain isn't fun, but you feel a certain pride that you're doing something other pilots in other services would perhaps complain about.

Like a "Flying" magazine writer once wrote, there's a noticeable difference between Army and AF pilots. AF pilots call badguys "bandits" and "bogeys". Army pilots call them "badguys" or whatever term comes to mind. Army aviation, and helicopters in general, is/are rewarding. I left for my own reasons, but there are times I wish I could do it again.

[Guest thebronze]

Apparently you don't have much of a clue either.

BTDT. I was a 93B for four yrs w/ the 140th AVN (ATK), so apparently I do...

So do A-10 and MC-130 pilots...but it doesn't mean their jobs suck.

I never said that their job sucked, did I?

The Army trains its helicopter crews to operate out of austere locations because they depend on the helicopters to be there when the shooting starts.

Exactly the point I was making.

Get a clue.

You too. I was giving you a compliment when I was talking about Army Aviators having it "rough". The thread was about Army Aviation and not about A-10's, MC-130's, MH-53's, Marines, etc., that's why I didn't mention them.

Coner,

By the sound of your post, it sounded like you were some young kid that was asking questions that could have been easily found elsewhere, and not a BTDT grunt, as you said. I apologize for assuming the former.

[ 22 December 2003, 17:41: Message edited by: Johann ]

[Guest Baker]

I have a few questions about Army aviation. I am currently not old enough to join the army and am in high school.

my first question is that in a letter I got from the army there is a line that says "through the delayed entry program, you can get a choice of job training or duty station- guaranteed before you graduate from high school." Does this include aviation?

Second, the army is the only branch that you can get a flight spot comming from high school, right? If so, even if it is not a requirment, do you have a chance to get an aviation slot without a college diploma, or is it to competitive?

I want to be an attack helicopter pilot and am inturested in the army because of the aircraft they fly(AH-64, and soon to be RAH-66). I have also thought about the marines, but have heard that you have to take a tour on the ground, and dont like the thought of that. I also like that I would not have to go to college for the army. Thanks in advance for all of your help.

[Guest BigIronDriver]

Baker,

I can't answer the Army aviation questions for you...though I do know that they are one of the few services that allow you to fly without having been to college. I can give you some thoughts on the Marines since I currently fly CH-53E's for them. First, believe it or not, you can actually become a pilot in the Marines without a degree, but I believe you have to have your associates degree and then within three years of getting your wings I believe you have to finish up your college. Don't quote me on this, but I have a buddy who is a pilot in my squadron and he doesn't have his degree yet. The good news is that you could do a program such as PLC air and that means you will have your time in college count towards your time in service...plus you do get paid something while you are in college...not a lot but something. Remember, college might be something you will want to have under your belt someday so don't be in a huge rush to overlook it. The Marines will give you a gauranteed air slot as long as you pass the physical and the aviation test. Yes, it is true that you might have to do some sort of a ground tour, but for your education you might like to know that I have been in the Marines for over 7 years now and accept for my first year in the Marine Corps when I did OCS and TBS (basically grunt stuff) and since then I have been flying...it will be six years in the cockpit this March. Also, if you are looking to be a helo guy, they aren't that hard to get...of course, we don't have AH-64's or RAH-66's, but the new AH-1Z's will be coming out soon. If you work hard you can get what you want on the helo side...generally speaking...and especially if you don't mind which coast you are on. I hope that helps out a little...remember, Army helo guys deploy with the grunts and spend a lot of time in the field, so just because you have to do a "ground tour" in the Marines doesn't mean you will be untouchable in the Army...Semper Fi...BigIronDriver

[163 FS]

You can fly for the army w/o a degree through the Warrant Officer program. Go to the army's warrant officer page and it will give you more info on requirements. You have to take the AFAST test and score well in order to have a shot, but I do believe that you can go out of high school, but don't quote me on that. Good luck!

[Guest everlung]

Does anyone have any info on the AFAST test? It stands for "Alternate Flight Aptitude Selection Test." The Army uses it to qualify Warrant Officer Candidates to fly helicopters. I have the arco study book, but I would like to know more about the afast, in terms of difficulty, and question range. Any info is greatly appreciated.

[Guest OldGuy]

The arco study book is pretty complete. If you're familiar with that you'll do fine on the test. There are several questions at the end that are like a psychological profile - no right or wrong answer (they say). Just be honest on that part, because there's no way to gauge what they're looking for.

Good luck.

[Guest drelyn8]

Here is the best website for you. www.aptap.org

"Army pilots to Airline Pilots" They address these questions daily.

Good Luck

[Guest EZ206PILOT]

Does anyone know what type of Flight Physical is required to fly for the army. Is it held to the same standards of the AF or is it harder?

[Guest OldGuy]

Same as the Air Force. In fact, I took my "Army" flight physical at Dover AFB.

[Bishop]

Hello, I was wondering, I looked on the army website and coudltn really easily find much info about the Fixed-wing aricraft the ARMY operates. Also, I know the number is very low but what are the actual numbers of slots that Army pilots get for fixed-wing. Also, what base possibilities does it open up to being stationed at as a Fixed wing aviator in the Army, what possible base assignments.

I also was reading the Air Force times today and read about them making cuts to flight pay, I didnt fully understand this, if anyone has more info could they please explain it a bit more, it sounded like the NAV's and ABM's are getting flight pay cuts across the board and like only those who have been in 4 years are getting flight pay cuts. I just didnt fully understand that.

Thanks

[Guest foster0341]

Im new to this but I am a E-4 in the marine corps and i am about to get out. I want to cross to the Army to be a warrent officer and fly helos. I am working on my ppl in fixed wing, and im wondering what the catch is on becoming a warrent officer. Any advice or info would be helpful.

[Ryder1587]

Heres just like a general overview. Warrants are the main pilots in the ARMY. They get the most hours and have other responsibilities but not near as many as Officers. Officers get to fly but not near as. Warrants dont get paid as much is maybe the only downfall. One sucky thing is you can have 15 years in and a 2nd LT is higher rank than you and when you fly you have alot more knowledge its prob just a little weird teachin higher ranks how to fly and them outranking you. ARMY pilots have been deployed alot lately, as well as the rest of the Armed Forces. It all depends where you are stationed. Like dad for like 14 years didnt have to go anywhere overseas except for the first Gulf War. Then in the last 5 years went to Korea, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan for 6 month- 1 year tours so it all depends. Right now were down in Mother Rucker. Not exactly if that covered youre questions or not, just let me know.

[Guest foster0341]

what i was wondering, what is the catches, i am not worried about the deployments and having somebody over rank me. i want to know about the education, the schools, the outline of what you do when you first get in. im hoping to go to germany. i have been to iraq twice and soon i will go again.

[Ryder1587]

Oh. Well Warrants arent required for college but alot do nowadays for rank. My dad doesnt have a degree but got lucky to get CW4. So its up to you. Im guessing youd go to OTS to compete? Im not sure about gettin the pilot slot aspect of it. I know they still ahve high school to flight school but doesnt know if that applies to other branches. Then down here at Ft. Rucker you go through training will lasts around 1 year I believe.

[Ryder1587]

Try this site. https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/index2.asp

It should be on there how to inner service transfer. He said its changed since hes been in but you need like a Class 2 Medical Certificate and take the FAST test and get at least a 90, and a 110 on the GT. It all should be on that site though.

[Ryder1587]

https://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/

this one is the specific one

[hawkdriver29]

foster

I'm a CW2 3 years out of Mother Rucker and currently in Afghanistan. I was "high school to flight school" so I'm not familiar with IST's. Like Ryder said you'll have to take the AFAST and score at least 90. There is a prep book available, and I'd reccommend picking up, at least so you have an idea what to expect. If you study and prep a little the test isn't that hard. You'll start out at Warrant Officer Candidate School (at Rucker). It was a 6 week course when I went through but there was talk of making it longer, don't know if they did or not. WOCS isn't too bad, the first 2 weeks are pretty hectic, you can't do anything right, the TACS are on your ass, all that fun stuff. As you move along it gets easier though, I think my class only had 4 out of 65 who didn't make it, 2 due to medical problems, and 2 who were just rolled back to another class and graduated later. Once that's done and you pin on your bars, you'll start flight school. You start out in the TH-67, (a Bell Jet Ranger) for primary and instruments. It'll feel like your trying to drink from a firehose at times, but most people get through it. You'll learn to focus on what they expect you to know tomorrow. Flight school has changed since I went through so more than likely after instruments you'll select aircraft and start Flight School 21, which is AQC, BCS, and NVG qual all rolled into one. When I went through, we did BCS and NVG quals in OH-58C's, then AQC in our aircraft. The nice thing about flight school 21 is you should leave with 3-4X more time in your aircraft than those who just go to AQC.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something so PM me if you have any questions

[Guest foster0341]

Thanks Hawkdriver,

Do you get alot of time in the helo, are you happy with your job or is it so so at times, i love the military but the marines is not for me. im already in flight school for fixed wing and it isnt to bad. i think alot of things are similar between them. But not sure. Flight is bad ass and not to many people can do it so that makes it so much more fun. Im going to a recruiter today and see what they have to say. i need to get some papers going so when i get back from iraq for the third time i can switch over. is there alot of air units in germany or over seas in friendly countries you can go or is that even a option at first. once again thanks for the info

[hawkdriver29]

Foster

Flight time depends on many things, the aircraft you fly, where you're stationed, your ability, and attitude to name a few. As far as job happiness, you have good days and not so good days. Army aviation is by no means perfect, but it's not bad either.

There are some similarities that your fixed wing time will help you with, but there are also many differences, just wait until you start trying to find the hover button. Keep up the research, and don't let recruiters talk you into something you don't want to do. Most recruiters aren't too familiar with the Warrant program. I've met people, both Warrants and enlisted who were told they had to do some enlisted time before they could apply for WOCS. As I said before, I'm not familiar with IST's, so I don't know if, or how that would affect how the recruiter works with you.

Regarding overseas assignments, Germany has several aviation units, but some of them may be moving back stateside with the restructuring going on. Other units are in Italy, Korea, Japan, and Honduras. Again, with the restructuring going on, all this may be up in the air. You can go overseas in your first assignment. I went to Korea out of flight school. It's fairly common for quite a few guys to go overseas right out of flight school.

Good luck with everything, and don't hesitate to PM or e-mail me with any questions that may pop up.

[hawkdriver29]

Ryder

Ask your Dad, he probably knows better than me. My opinion is that it doesn't necessarily matter, at least not to get in. I had already graduated college prior to going "high school to flight school", but I also know of some guys who literally went h.s to f.s. You will want to get your degree at some point. It will help you get promoted, not to mention help prepare you for life after the military.

foster

You might also want to check out www.hawkdriver.com. I know the OH-58 guys have their own website, not sure about Apaches or Chinooks, but if I can find them I'll let you know

[Guest jriggoMOANG]

I got a buddy of mine who is at RUcker right now going thru training. He transfered from Navy to the Warrent Officer Program with only 2 semesters of colloge and no degree. If memory serves me, his officer school was 6 weeks and then he rolled right into flight training. He is one of the first four persons who will be going directly to the Apache after instruments, he said it is a new program that the Army is testing out right now. Started in September and he will graduate this comming August. I know that he did have kinda a long wait when he first started the process of transfering services, but he told me that over all it was pretty easy. I cannot speak to everything only to what he has told me. Good luck and hope you get it!

Jason

[ 22. February 2005, 13:15: Message edited by: J.R. MO ANG ]