504PIR Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 What next? https://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130618/NEWS04/306180038/AF-may-use-V-22s-combat-rescue-mission "Maj. Gen. George Williams, AFSOC vice commander, says moving the CSAR mission into AFSOC would save the service more than $3 billion between 2015 and 2025. Williams, according to briefings and sources, believes the CV-22, already operated by AFSOC, is a better fit for the mission because it can fly longer distances, faster than the HH-60. AFSOC also believes the CV-22 is better suited for operating in denied airspace, currently a major focus in Air Force future planning. AFSOC wants to replace 31 of the 66 active-duty HH-60s with 18 new Bell-Boeing CV-22s. This would be in addition to AFSOC’s planned fleet of 49 Ospreys for special operations."
Gravedigger Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 So he has to wait until after he retires to cash the check right?
Broke Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 1) So they're going to buy 18 aircraft at $77,000,000.00 for a total of $1.386 BILLION dollars, with a higher life-cycle mx cost and this is going to save $10 bil over 10 years? 2) The CV-22 has been evaluated and found insufficient as a CSAR platform already. 3) Are we seriously using Libya as an example of the Osprey's CSAR capability?
WeatherManC130 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Would the new HC-130J move to AFSOC as well? Did not see a mention of it, but makes sense since the HC/MC are almost identical. Designate Moody and DM as AFSOC but with the PR qual. Just my 2 cents. WxMan
raimius Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 So, they want to make the fleet of CSAR aircraft even smaller, mix in another aircraft's MX and training costs, and "save money" while "increasing capability?"
busdriver Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 They want more CV-22s and MC-130Js. This has nothing to do with CSAR or PR or saving money.
Breckey Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 That's what I heard from a buddy who's in the HC-J. ACC is getting the Kings faster than AFSOC is getting the Commandos and they want them. Hell it was AFSOC with their KPP change in CSAR-X that doomed (IMHO) the entire program.
JSChmed Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 They're running out of money operating the CV and are scrambling to find more. To someone unfamiliar with CSAR, a 'SOF aircraft that can infil/exfil a team can certainly exfil an isolated person....so this is an easy decision.....just look at Libya.' I heard they're looking at 10 flight hours between engine replacements in the desert, 100 hours otherwise. Osprey guys, correct me if that's wrong, but that seems unsustainable.
HeloDude Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 I'll take a 60 over a V-22 each time while flying in the mountains in Afghanistan during the summer...actually, I'd much rather have a CH-53E or a CH-47.
RTB Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Hell it was AFSOC with their KPP change in CSAR-X that doomed (IMHO) the entire program. Forgive my ignorance...KPP?
Day Man Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Forgive my ignorance...KPP? https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3625748&page=1#.UcOqKfXWNHg
backseatdriver Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Forgive my ignorance...KPP? Key Performance Parameter = Requirements speak for specific capabilities of a new aircraft (or modification). "The aircraft must be able to do X" (known as a threshold), "and if possible we would like it to do Y" (known as an objective)
DirtyHerk Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 "ACC is getting the Kings faster than AFSOC is getting the Commandos" False. AFSOC has already delivered the first plane to their 2nd squadron, meanwhile Moody's first plane is still working its way out of the factory. (null)
HeloDude Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 "ACC is getting the Kings faster than AFSOC is getting the Commandos" False. AFSOC has already delivered the first plane to their 2nd squadron, meanwhile Moody's first plane is still working its way out of the factory. (null) You do realize that DM already has the new HC-130J's, right? https://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123351308
busdriver Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 It's not about speed of getting iron, it's about getting more iron and more money. It would be one thing if AFSOC & SOCOM were saying they'll take the rescue mission and make it a core mission set and actually support it, but I doubt it.
slackline Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 It's not about speed of getting iron, it's about getting more iron and more money. It would be one thing if AFSOC & SOCOM were saying they'll take the rescue mission and make it a core mission set and actually support it, but I doubt it. This! We've been down this road before. AFSOC couldn't care less about CSAR or saving money, and that's why this experiment failed the first time. They're shooting for a way to gain the iron and money. We may be a red headed stepchild in ACC's fighter world, but at least they respect the capability and mission we bring to the fight. We're a necessary evil if you will... Let's not even start down the road of a CV-22 being capable of the rescue mission. I was there when they got their first "rescue" in the Osprey. They were in a neat orbit overhead while an HH-60G landed at 11,000'. Hilarious the next day as the Air Force propaganda machine went nuts touting the CV-22 in the papers, and barely mentioned the fact that due to service ceiling limitations (worse than a Pavehawk, and that's bad!) prevented from actually doing anything... Yeah, let's take that machine. It will get to the zone ASAP, then do a cool orbit overhead. It has its pros and cons like every machine, but too many cons for the mission the Air Force wants to force it into. Square peg, round hole. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD 1
Biff_T Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 No more 53’s and the 6 SOS got rid of its rotary mission. What will AFSOC do with all those 60’s? I could have sworn that they wanted out of the rotary world.
Biff_T Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 The army wanted them out of the rotary world. And they agreed to leave.
HeloDude Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) And they agreed to leave. If you think these decisions are made in a bubble then you need to learn a little more. SOCOM controls a lot of what AFSOC assets do and do not do, what goes where, etc. Edited June 21, 2013 by HeloDude
Biff_T Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 If you think these decisions are made in a bubble then you need to learn a little more. SOCOM controls a lot of what AFSOC assets do and do not do, what goes where, etc. AFSOC still has a say in what airframes they need and if they truly wanted to keep the rotary mission they would have helicopters. This whole situation seems like a ploy to steal HH-60’s from ACC in order to trade them for more CV-22’s with the intent of eventually dropping the 60’s from its inventory.
HeloDude Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 I fully agree that this is a ploy for AFSOC/SOCOM to get more CV's and J's, but SOCOM calls the shots when it comes to AFSOC, not the other way around.
B52gator Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 AFSOC still has a say in what airframes they need and if they truly wanted to keep the rotary mission they would have helicopters. This whole situation seems like a ploy to steal HH-60’s from ACC in order to trade them for more CV-22’s with the intent of eventually dropping the 60’s from its inventory. Your avatar creeps me the fuck out.
Biff_T Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) I fully agree that this is a ploy for AFSOC/SOCOM to get more CV's and J's, but SOCOM calls the shots when it comes to AFSOC, not the other way around. Rog Your avatar creeps me the ###### out. I like children... Edited June 21, 2013 by heloboy
bronxbomber252 Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Hilarious the next day as the Air Force propaganda machine went nuts touting the CV-22 in the papers, and barely mentioned the fact that due to service ceiling limitations (worse than a Pavehawk, and that's bad!) prevented from actually doing anything... Yeah, let's take that machine. It will get to the zone ASAP, then do a cool orbit overhead. Now if only we had an aircraft that could do that, but faster (relative term), and loiter longer, and be able to refuel the -60's.... oh wait...
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