Undergraduate Navigator Training (UNT) info

[Guest canucope1]

Does anyone know where I can find info on SUNT class schedule? I've been selected for UNT and an alternate for UPT. I'm just trying to find out when I expect a class date.

[Mitch Weaver]

Canucope,

As far as I know, there's no place where the UNT class schedules are posted but the casual Lt's at the 562FTS Student Control Office should have a list of classes through FY05. Their # is (210) 652-4951. Of course, this won't help you until you get orders with a class start date, but it will give you an idea of when class should start. FYI, I applied through the AD board in FY02, got my slot around May, and started class in December.

The new Nav/WSO/CSO/EWO/whatever program might have started by then, which might reduce some of the tedious chart drawing which studs have been doing for a while. Good luck.

[backseatdriver]

Actually I'm still a student, so ask me the other questions in a few months. As far as typical days at nav school, it varies greatly. Here's a rough breakdown of the type of days:

Academics:

The course is broken up into different phases (7 total). At the beginning of each phase you have academics. Days vary a lot during academics, sometimes you're in class 8-5, others you'll come in for a couple of hours of classes and go home.

Sims:

Sim missions are 4 hours long (time in the sim). You'll have 4 hours of mission planning the day prior where you spin up your flight plan and plot your charts and go over the departures and approaches. The next day (usually) you'll have a 4 hour sim with an hour brief and debrief.

Flights:

Flights are on a T-43 (modified 737) that has student stations in the back. The flights are 4 hour missions as well. You'll show up about 4 hours prior to takeoff to spin up your flight plan, check your pubs, brief with the instructors and pilots and step to the jet for your pre-flight checklists. After the flight you'll have about a 30 minute debrief with your instructor.

Whenever you have flights or sims, that's all you'll do for the day. There's no formal release like they have at UPT (thankfully!) where you have to stay at the squadron 12 hours a day regardless of what you're doing.

So that's a brief and rather rough rundown of nav school. Enough of me rambling. Let me know if you have any more questions.

[Guest ifrflyer]

So by "spin up your flight plan" do you mean break out the wiz-wheel and start spinning, or do you have advanced DUATS (I shouldn't call DUATS advanced) type computer-based programs?

[backseatdriver]

By "spin" I mean break out the ol' whiz-wheel. You start using computerized flight plans and charts towards the end of the training. You actually do tons of "dead reckoning," it's just not the same thing you're used to. Everything you do in nav school is instrument based, there's no visual navigation, except for maybe in the T-1 phase (low-level flights), but I haven't gotten that far yet.

[Guest 130Nav]

Just thought I would pipe in for the Guard/Reserve Navs out there...We have started doing our FTU at Dobbins in GA instead of Little Rock and from what I hear they always have openings for instructors there. Those positions are technician and a few AGR's. So there is hope for a full time job doing Nav stuff before retirement.

Also I can tell you that a lot of the Active Duty guys get to Nav school with several months to kill. They do their NIFT and then go on casual status until their start date. Classes are spaced every 3 weeks. Dates will often change once you actually arrive at Randolph and get started on NIFT. You don't want to be stuck on casual too long they have you doing base clean up etc.

[Guest ifrflyer]

130Nav,

What do the Nav students that already have a PPL do? Skip NIFT (obviously)? Do they remain on a casual status longer?

[Guest 130Nav]

There's a good possibility you can get your class date moved up. A lot of guys showed up with a date that was several months out and then got moved up due to other people not showing for one reason or another.

Active duty guys are just kind of at their mercy. Unfortunately the casual status stuff changed very recently. When I got there a year ago everyone would report in in the morning and usually be released within a few hours but when I left in January they had them doing all kinds of details.

[Guest 130Nav]

Hey BBC,

I have spent the last couple weeks getting settled here at Dobbins and it is kind of hit or miss with who gets the Dobbins slots. They are a much smaller scale school and only running classes of 3-4 people with one class going at a time.

Also they are still working out a lot of the kinks of their program since they were forced to take all of Little Rocks curriculum and make it work here.

It is definitely better than the Rock tho! Just have to keep on your training guy and stay on his good side.

[Guest uptboundnav]

ifrflyer:

I am a NAV now, I graduated in 02. The course is very dynamic, it is under a lot of changes. There was a guy here that I worked with that went down to Randolph to be an instructor. Let me know and I will give you his name/and or contact him for you with any questions. Also, I know a few people in various platforms right now that are navs. Nav school was a good time, I did't get the NIFT or whatever but I had a PPL so I know how much having that little bit of flying experience helps. Bottom line is, they take you from square one, the very basics. It's intense at times, but not really. Just work together with your classmates on charts and flight plans and you shouldn't have any problems. Whe I was there, the IN's were generally pretty cool. Obviously there were some extremes, both hard core and laid back, but overall not too bad. Try to live in the dorms, you will have a great time. San Antonio is an awesome town and you will have a good bit of time on the weekends to check it out. By the way, there is a great burger place right out the main gate on Pat Booker, the name escapes me right now but you have to check it out.

"Wreck"

[Guest gonads]

I am about to start Nav school right now (05-06). They don't have class dates for any class past 05-07, so that tells you some stoof. As well, they don't have the new CSO training for navs slated until October at the earliest.

[Guest bruno]

I don't really know how many stages there are Navigator training so I hope some of you in the know can shed some light on this question: How long is Nav training? I have heard that it is a year long--but then I have heard that there are smaller schools along the way that can delay the process. Also, what happens when you complete UNT? Do you go to your specific air frame to train for a few months before you go operational or do you just show up at your first assignment and get the training there for that specific airframe?

I guess the real reason that I ask these questions is that I have heard that once you get through nav school, you must be operational for 2 years before you can apply for a pilot slot so when does that 2 years begin--is it after the initial 1 year UNT or is it after you start the first operational assingment?

I am excited to become a Nav--but I don't have time on my side for a possible Pilot slot in the future.

Im sorry I have a lot of questions-I just have one more. For anyone in the know--which airframes have the longest nav training and which airframes have the shortest training requirements?

Many thanks to anyone who could take a little time to answer my questions

bruno

[BossHogg]

Nav school typically lasts about 10-11 months. You will wait for a survival school slot to open up at Fairchild; mine took about a month and a half. Survival school is about a month long, if I remember correctly. I went to slick C130's and waited for another month for a school date to open up. FTU, or follow on training unit, lasts for about 4 months for 130's, but this was also when the E models had no wing cracks, etc... I have been talking to some buddies at Little Rock now and they are saying the school house is getting backed up because they have no planes. Active duty has been acquiring more E's from the guard, so it probably wouldn't affect your time frame as much. So, I started Nav school in January of 2001, winged Oct 2001, finished survival January of 2002, completed the school house May of 2002, and arrived at my first duty station in June of 2002.

The regulation that you are looking for is AFI 36-2205. It governs the whole 2.5 year process. Page 8, figure 1.1; "rated navigators must serve 2.5 years of rate duty as a navigator prior to SUPT entry and may apply with 2 years rated duty (6 months prior). Take this years active duty board for example, it met on Feb 8th. If you are winged before Feb 8 of 2003, then you are golden. You can apply. You cannot start earlier than August 8 of 2005. At least this is my interpretation of the rule. I don't think there are any exceptions to this rule, but anyone wanting to critique my math, feel free.

It is from the winging date, ie as a navigator, not the day you show at Randolph. AWACs typically have the shortest FTU, and I believe they do theirs in house. However, it is also my understanding that it is tougher to get a good endorsement from an AWACs WG/CC on your 215 because there are so many rated guys who apply from AWACs units. You will be able to apply for an age waiver up to 33 years, I believe. Check around for the reg. But, that is not most peoples problem. We get old man. It gets much tougher to pass an IFC1 physical the older you get, and don't kid yourself, because you are a nav means nothing to the flight doc's. You will have to pass the same IFC1 for pilot that the 22 year old out of college will do.

Do a search on nav to pilot to get the rest of the tips. Of course, doing well in nav school is a good start, but don't be a tool to do it. San Antonio is a blast, have fun while you are there. If you go Herc's you will fly your rearend off once you get to your unit.

[JLoweCSU]

Navs,

There is tons of info out there about UPT and other pilot training programs, but I can only find minimal info about navigator training. My understanding is that when you apply for nav training you choose a track...fighter, bomber, WSO or tanker/airlift. From there you either go to Pensacola or Randolph and then to your aircraft. Is this correct?

Also, can some of you tell me a little bit about your nav experience...have you enjoyed it? Has it been worthwhile? Do you enjoy the track you chose? What are the pros/cons of each airframe (in regard to your job)? How often/long do you go TDY?

Thanks for any info you can provide!

[Toasty]

I'd like some more info on just what exactly the nav "does" nowadays. Honestly, I can't find a speck of info out there on what their exact flight duties are. Everyone knows what the pilot is doing from the moment he steps into preflight to the moment he gets home at the end of the day, but what about the nav?

Also, what is training at Randolph like?

[Scooter14]

Nav Selection

I know tht the duties of a nav have been covered on his forum, and there are a few of us (backseatdriver, me, Bergman, blkafnav) that are/were navs and encourage others who want to pursue this career field, for whatever reason. I was a happy nav, now I am a happy pilot. Some folks are not pilot qualified, so they stay happy navs. Others blame everyone and their mother that they never had the shot to be a pilot.

Just the way it is, I guess.

[barney]

just found out about getting a nav slot-commisioning in spring 06- i have no idea about what i am getting into-if anyone knows any thing about what airframes-training locations and durations-different tracks-are there any websites or books-thanks for any help

[backseatdriver]

If you just got your slot, I'm assuming you're not going to Pensacola, so here's some info on Randolph.

The training at Randolph is approx. 9 months long. At around the halfway point, you track either EWO or Nav (technically everyone coming out of Randolph is a CSO now, but that's a whole other discussion and for simplification's sake, there is still a Nav/EWO split).

From what I understand, you get your assignment before the split now - things have changed since I went through (i.e. you find out you're going to be an RC-135 EWO, you go through the EWO course, you find out you're going to be an C-130 Nav, you stay in the nav program).

As far as assignment options, you have the following:

Nav

AC/MC(P)/HC/EC/C-130

RC-135

B-52

E-3

E-8

KC-135

EWO

AC/MC(H)/EC-130

B-52

RC-135

I don't know of any websites or books out there. If you have any other questions, or want more specific info, post or PM me.

[Guest Navtastic]

They went back to scarf drop (Nav/EWO split), then plane drop. They only did the "whole drop" thing for a few classes.

[barney]

ok thanks for the info-i have also heard something about a NIFT course-any idea what that is about-thanks

[Guest flecth033]

Try a quick search. Basically you will be getting 25 hours of flight time at an FBO. if you go to Randolph, check out check six.

[Guest Lightninbo]

The Nifty guys seem like they are here for around 6-8 months before they are nifty complete and put into the pipeline( nifty complete meaning they have completed thier 20 or so hours of flight training.)....CSO training is actually around 10 months long.

[Guest shawty]

Barney,

I am currently in NAV school at Randolph. pm me with your email and any questions.

Toastychicken,

I got to Randolph 5 June 05 and started about mid to late August. Some people that were here before me just classed up a couple weeks ago. The pipeline at the longest might be a year but most likely you are looking at 4 to 6 months.

NIFT was 25 hours but it sounds like that might be changing. If it's still 25 when you go through, you should definitely look at Check Six Aviation. A bunch of retired military there and all instructors are excellent aviators. There are a lot of places to choose from so if you want to know more, pm me.

Shawty

[Guest Navtastic]

Typical AF answer: It depends. The number of people sitting around with their thumbs up their butts at any given time fluctuates.

I was only in NIFT flight for 3 months. I completed NIFT in the alloted 45 days, went on leave and then had my wisdom teeth removed, which helped me dodge the ASBC bullet. They were shoving people in classes as fast as they could when I was a n00b.

I second the recommendation to go to Check Six for NIFT. They just lost an instructor (and a plane) this summer, but they are IMHO the best flight school in the area.

[Guest NY'r]

I'm getting ready to go to Randolph for UNT in May . Anyone know what happens as far as living situation. I was sent a link to a website to look for apartments in San Antonio but I don't know if thats even an option for you while your at UNT and if it is, is it recommended?