Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Skitzo]

I would love to see that. But we all know an o5 flying the line would have to be an ado of some sort.

[C17Driver]

I would love to see that. But we all know an o5 flying the line would have to be an ado of some sort.

Unless you're in the 559th (T-6 PIT).

[hindsight2020]

Unless you're in the 559th (T-6 PIT).

Damn it. Beat me to it...

What a FWA that place is (RND)

Edited May 25, 2013 by hindsight2020

[HeloDude]

I would love to see that. But we all know an o5 flying the line would have to be an ado of some sort.

ADO's often do less than the Snack-O's...

[Champ Kind]

Damn it. Beat me to it...

What a FWA that place is (RND)

Yeah, experienced guys teaching guys how to be instructors... What a waste!

ADO's often do less than the Snack-O's...

Say what you guys want... Find a Lt Col line flyer with no other job and I submit you'll find the happiest MFer in the squadron.

[matmacwc]

Yeah, experienced guys teaching guys how to be instructors... What a waste!

I went through the 560th over 6 years ago, they were some good eggs there, but then there are the ones hindsights talking about. Career white jet, little to no operational experience, looks at the picture through a swizzle stick, no credibility. How those dudes stay at RND for over 10 years on AD is beyond me. I could continue....

Hey, did you hear the one about General Rand taking over AETC as the 4 star and putting the fighter RTUs back under ACC? My bonus source was a bust, but this one might hold water.

[Champ Kind]

Fair enough...

Full disclosure: I've never been through PIT.

[11F]

Hey, did you hear the one about General Rand taking over AETC as the 4 star and putting the fighter RTUs back under ACC? My bonus source was a bust, but this one might hold water.

It wouldn't surprise me. It's already that way for 15Es & 22s, and the guard has 15Cs.

[hindsight2020]

All flight training outfits should be owned by AFRC.....

[matmacwc]

All flight training outfits should be owned by AFRC.....

It does make sense, I am at one. I think the AD keeps a large pool of warfighters current at the RTUs though.

Edited May 26, 2013 by matmacwc

[Techsan]

I would love to see that. But we all know an o5 flying the line would have to be an ado of some sort.

Not in the 89th.

[Learjetter]

Not in the 89th.

But being in the 89th is its own punishment.

[Cap-10]

But do you get to keep the $$ you were already paid via ACP if Big Blue decides to cut you loose, or do they add insult to injury and expect to recoup that too?

This was a few years ago, but a friend of mine (Major, passed over to Lt Col) had taken the bonus back in the day when you could take it to the 20 year point.

Big blue was in full swing of cutting the end strength numbers, so he was told he had to retire at the 20 year point.

His bonus commitment took him 6.9 months past his 20 years of service date.

He said he would retire at the end of the bonus commitment....

Big blue said "No!", out the door at the 20 years of service date, and we want out $12K back from the 6 months of unserved bonus commitment.

It's only a contract for the Air Force to hold you by the balls...if it doesn't work for them, they will void the contract and you are gone.

Plan accordingly!!!

Cheers,

Cap-10

[disgruntledemployee]

Wrong. On both counts. Just got off work; sarcasm?

I was trying to make a quick point, but I guess we need to break it down.

1. So the AF doesn't care about initial take rates? Enlighten us.

2. So who paces pay better verus the airline guy, the guy that stays in with or without the bonus? With the 5 year or the up to 10 year bonus?

3. Where is the break even point in time with the guy that gets out to airline and the guy that stays in with the 5 year bonus? Now where is that ETP with more bonus out to 20? Don't forget the shitty airline pay for the first few years.

4. What would you rather our brothers have available to them, a 25K/5yr deal or 25K/up to 20yr deal?

Out

[BFM this]

A 10 year plan does make better sense than a 5 or 7 as they it offers better competition with potential airline pay. Its about getting more people to take the bonus in the first place. Now if they can somehow make it tax free. Oh wait, that's what deployments and 365s are for.

The low hanging fruit on this initial post was the idea of officers getting their bonus installments tax free. Not really. Remember the limits on CTZE for officers. You might see a grand or so excluded, but that's it. Minor point.

I was trying to make a quick point, but I guess we need to break it down.

1. So the AF doesn't care about initial take rates? Enlighten us.

2. So who paces pay better verus the airline guy, the guy that stays in with or without the bonus? With the 5 year or the up to 10 year bonus?

3. Where is the break even point in time with the guy that gets out to airline and the guy that stays in with the 5 year bonus? Now where is that ETP with more bonus out to 20? Don't forget the shitty airline pay for the first few years.

4. What would you rather our brothers have available to them, a 25K/5yr deal or 25K/up to 20yr deal?

Out

I really wasn't saying anything about take rates, per se, just that the only difference in the 10yr bonus vs the 5 yr, at the same annual rate, was that it is double the suckers' bet. A significant change in the annual amount, and the logic could shift, but otherwise, BitteEinBit put it far more eloquently than I could:

Keep in mind, any bonus you sign is not intended to benefit you in any way unless you are in it for the money (which really isn't much). [...] Having "free agents" in a world of 365s to Shitcrackistan and 7-day opts forces Big Blue to actually manage people and they don't want to have to do that. [...]

As far as "pacing pay" with the airline guy, the 5yr-bonus Tortoise beats the 10yr-bonus Hare, imo. Assuming that someone was going to stay in to 20 regardless (not a bad decision necessarily given the size of the unlocked annuity), the 5yr bonus guy can get out at 20, whereas the 10yr bonus guy gets out at 22 - 23 years. Fast forward to those same two individuals at their age 65 point, the one who got out at 20 was in the industry for an extra 2 years. The 10yr bonus guy, although he was gainfully employed with a much more comfortable paycheck for those two years (assuming he avoided all of afpc's pitfalls; desk job, etc), looses out on an extra two years, not at the bottom, where everyone starts, but at the top of the pay scale. Lets not forget, the 5yr bonus guy has a line number that is probably hundreds, potentially a thousand, senior to the 10yr bonus guy. That difference alone could easily spell years worth of furlough time.

But there are so many variables, that the money can't reliably be computed in my opinion. RIFs, non-flying, RPA, the next shooting war, furloughs, bankruptcies, medical, getting hit by a bus, the list goes on. At some point, the best attempt at a calculation is going to approach an insurance actuarial table; a best guess.

As far as break even points, I haven't crunched the numbers at all compared to a lot of others on this board, so ask them. I'm only saying that the 10year bonus idea is snake oil. Buyer beware.

If the AF told me, today, that I could take the bonus or get out, right now, I'd be a vapor trail. Even ignoring any unicorns that might be on the way (hiring wave), I can bump my pay $25k per year without a whole lot of effort. For the record, I've been a staunch nay-sayer on the airlines for a while. If I went that route, it would be because the kid still wants to fly airplanes. But I know full well what I'd be giving up by making that deal with the devil, and that he could take his due at a moments notice.

Edited May 26, 2013 by BFM this

[hindsight2020]

I was trying to make a quick point, but I guess we need to break it down.

1. So the AF doesn't care about initial take rates? Enlighten us.

2. So who paces pay better verus the airline guy, the guy that stays in with or without the bonus? With the 5 year or the up to 10 year bonus?

3. Where is the break even point in time with the guy that gets out to airline and the guy that stays in with the 5 year bonus? Now where is that ETP with more bonus out to 20? Don't forget the shitty airline pay for the first few years.

4. What would you rather our brothers have available to them, a 25K/5yr deal or 25K/up to 20yr deal?

Out

I thought we established after 15 pages of going in circles that the pilot bonus is no longer and hasn't been for a while, a measuring tape of any relevance to assess and attain parity with airline compensation scales. Ergo, those who stay, stay anyways and the effective volume of people for whom a 18K/yr post tax is the go/no-go for is statistically inconsequential. 18K might have been a lot in 1991, but it isn't now.

We've also established that the contract is one-sided and can be rescinded by Blue at any time, which means most members understand that signing the bonus does not give them any more of job security than the free agent that doesn't sign, making the bonus even more irrelevant to these "im staying until they kick me out " types. If they didn't know that, they now know that.

So, to wrap it all in, the bonus 'in praesenti' is merely a means for lazy force management incompetent Blue to not have to actively and tactically manage its force, by removing 7-day opt and attrition-via-assignment-cycle dynamics from the members' discretion. Secondly, it's a bread staple Blue "ineffective but VISIBLE" senior leadership token response in order to cover their political rear when they ask them why people are leaving aka 'um, we did offer a bonus, the dynamics are clearly out of our hands'.

Welcome back, you're caught up now.

[disgruntledemployee]

Words

Welcome back, you're caught up now.

Copy all. No bonus required. AF is all rainbows and glittery unicorns.

My point is this, plain and clear. Dude A that stays in a takes the bonus makes more money that dude B, the guy that stays in without a bonus. Dude C gets out a goes airline. Dude A is pacing better than dude B with respect to dude C. Now lets make the bonus even bigger. Now the pace is better by X.

My 3rd question is actually a question, you know, for answering. I don't imply anything by asking it. I don't know the acurate answer and I don't care to figure it out. But there is an ETP. Any potential bonus takers might be working to figure that out and perhaps continue the good life of rainbows and glittery unicorns.

But I guess you don't want an improved bonus available to any of our brothers. I'd love to see an improved option available to those that want to stay, whatever their reason. Do you?

Out

[Jaded]

And just think, soon those who take the bonus will be getting their Acp pay as well as their stop loss pay!

[HeloDude]

And just think, soon those who take the bonus will be getting their Acp pay as well as their stop loss pay!

This doesn't make any sense...unless I'm missing something (probably am)?

[BFM this]

Now lets make the bonus even bigger. Now the pace is better by X.

But there is an ETP.

But that wasn't your going-in argument, it was $250k/10y. That is a fantastically better bonus. For AFPC. It is orders of magnitude shittier for the member.

But there will be takers; a bird in the hand and all that.

What's the ETP? WGAS? The AF won't ever get anywhere near it, you know that.

[Ram]

This doesn't make any sense...unless I'm missing something (probably am)?

Rumor has it we have an 11F stop-loss on the horizon.

[HeloDude]

Rumor has it we have an 11F stop-loss on the horizon.

Fair enough...we'll all have to wait and see what happens.

But Jaded said:

And just think, soon those who take the bonus will be getting their Acp pay as well as their stop loss pay!

How can you get stop loss pay if you've taken the bonus and thus signed on for another commitment? Either he misspoke or I'm still overly dehydrated from being out in the sun all day.

[LJ Driver]

Fair enough...we'll all have to wait and see what happens.

But Jaded said:

How can you get stop loss pay if you've taken the bonus and thus signed on for another commitment? Either he misspoke or I'm still overly dehydrated from being out in the sun all day.

Anyone smart on the stoploss rules? I thought it was an all or nothing type thing, and the AF could not single out any specific AFSC? I also think the AF would be taking a huge hit in the PR department by admitting a giant screwup in their personnel calculations.

Edited May 28, 2013 by LJ Driver

[Butters]

You guys are fucking hilarious. I will tell you what I tell my 4 and 2 year old. BE PATIENT! When the 6.9 year $725,569 bonus is official and stop loss is OFFICIAL, all you questions will be answered. Until then, just keep screaming about how unfair the world is.

[Flare]

You guys are fucking hilarious. I will tell you what I tell my 4 and 2 year old. BE PATIENT! When the 6.9 year $725,569 bonus is official and stop loss is OFFICIAL, all you questions will be answered. Until then, just keep screaming about how unfair the world is.

I will take the bonus if it is at $725,569.

Unless airlines are hiring, which I believe you said they are?