Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Champ Kind]

If I was a young guy reading most of the threads here, I would be pretty scared about joining up.

They should be.

I joined for all of the idealistic reasons that everyone else did: fly airplanes in defense of my country.

It didn't take long to realize that flying airplanes, despite pouring my soul into it for about 3 years trying to learn how to fly and then how to employ, took a backseat to "professional development". Whoever that was earlier in this thread that said that they can trace the destruction back to 2007 is spot-on. Guess who took the reins as CSAF around that time. I truly feel sorry for the current CSAF -- he inherited a sinking ship.

I can't wait to see upper mgmt eat their words when people start bailing left and right. What was that about record high retention, again? Oh, I should feel lucky to be here? Right...

[di1630]

I really would like to know what the percentages are of those that are completely fed up with the AF and those who aren't..

Some guys get f-cked and punch, others get on the fast track and love the game of ball fondling that gets them to their next step. A lot I talk to are like me.....joined for the right reasons, then realized the USAF is such a poorly run organization that is is frustrating to be a part of....Love the flying and bros....hate/despise the system.

I have 8 years until retirement, with the bonus...worth dodging the bad deals til then for my future goals. The USAF has sadly just become a job. I get paid $110K+ and the occasionally flight as payment to play a stupid game with subpar management/leadership and live in some below average places.

The saddest part for me is how much I used to love the USAF and the esteem I once held it in before I realized what a sh-tshow it actually was.

[Vandy01]

Some guys get f-cked and punch, others get on the fast track and love the game of ball fondling that gets them to their next step. A lot I talk to are like me.....joined for the right reasons, then realized the USAF is such a poorly run organization that is is frustrating to be a part of....Love the flying and bros....hate/despise the system.

I have 8 years until retirement, with the bonus...worth dodging the bad deals til then for my future goals. The USAF has sadly just become a job. I get paid $110K+ and the occasionally flight as payment to play a stupid game with subpar management/leadership and live in some below average places.

The saddest part for me is how much I used to love the USAF and the esteem I once held it in before I realized what a sh-tshow it actually was.

The only people that gripe about the "system" are the people that it chews up and spits out. The people that are tracking tend to enjoy it, or may even love it. The rift seems to occur around the senior O-3 level... When some bros are bitching in the bar, others may say "yeah, it sucks, but...." And then the conversation trails off. Once the rationalizations or self justifications set in, they've got you. I truly believe that the guys at the top don't think it's broken: why? Because "it worked for them, and they are so great as to make GO, so the system must work."

I don't think anything major will come of this. Guys will stay in, guys will get out. The guys that stay in will fly a little more, and probably Won't have to do these stupid 365s as the manpower will be required in the cockpits. Lets face it: if the AF needs pilots- it's got plenty- they just won't send them to these stupid schools anymore. Honestly, having less pilots will probably improve the QOL for those that do stay....

As for the bonus- only time will tell, but my gut reaction is it won't make much of a dent.

[Vprdrvr69]

May I ask which community you ended up in post TAMI?

PM sent

TAmied to AFSOC= u28. 5 years later...

Yep, lots of guys in that bo-at. Nothing but good deals coming for them and the morale keeps improving year after year. I was there for 4+ but have been gone for quite a while now. Have things gotten any better or worse over the last year and a half? (I think I know the answer here)

... however about 75% are considering not taking the bonus in exchange for the ability to punch if the next assignment involves a UAV or a 365.

I really would like to know what the percentages are of those that are completely fed up with the AF and those who aren't. If I was a young guy reading most of the threads here, I would be pretty scared about joining up. I guess I haven't been kicked in the balls hard enough to share the same sentiment of a lot of guys here.

I'll post a thought provoking link in a minute showing some scary data on what AFPC knows about what pilots think of the USAF right now. Most of these posts sum it up perfectly!

I joined for all of the idealistic reasons that everyone else did: fly airplanes in defense of my country.

It didn't take long to realize that flying airplanes, despite pouring my soul into it for about 3 years trying to learn how to fly and then how to employ, took a backseat to "professional development"...

...I can't wait to see upper mgmt eat their words when people start bailing left and right. What was that about record high retention, again? Oh, I should feel lucky to be here? Right...

Exactly. I came in as an older guy and was certain that I was going to serve the full 20+. This was a dream come true that I sacrificed everything for to make happen. There was so much pride in living out a dream come true. Hard work was rewarded... then came TAMI and everything became much more clear. I've worked with some of the best and brightest in America; the USAF is full of incredible dudes of a caliber so far above the norm in society today. Unfortunately, the military is run in such an inept and almost comical manner it results in these same great dudes getting bent over in frequent intervals. I'm sick of getting fukked and watching my bros get fukked. It's like a monkey fukking a football...and we're the football fellas.

....joined for the right reasons, then realized the USAF is such a poorly run organization that is is frustrating to be a part of....Love the flying and bros....hate/despise the system.

I have 8 years until retirement, with the bonus...worth dodging the bad deals til then for my future goals. The USAF has sadly just become a job. I get paid $110K+ and the occasionally flight as payment to play a stupid game with subpar management/leadership and live in some below average places.

The saddest part for me is how much I used to love the USAF and the esteem I once held it in before I realized what a sh-tshow it actually was.

Spot on! Be careful, I've seen first hand the next wave of 365's trickling down hill. That might be a tough 8 years. To try to make one comment relevant to the ACP discussion- I would stay far away from that shit if and when they ever release it. The value of not being an indentured servant FAR OUTWEIGHS the value of $25k pretax/ yr. Maybe the list of the 365's to Asscrackistan is full because they are about to drop and get signed ACP's in return.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Vprdrvr69

[Vprdrvr69]

Rated officer losses in the active duty Air Force were significantly higher in FY12 than in the previous several years. Pilot inventory losses due to separation or retirement increased greatly, with 588 more separations than last year.

These are the first two line from the introduction for the AFPC Officer Rated Retention Analysis Report FY2012. While I'm surprised the ACP take-rate was as high as it was (although still in decline), the retention numbers are funny as hell. In FY2012, the number of pilots analyzed to move out of the line flyer position was 1578. The bulk of those dudes are first time eligible to separate or retire. The remaining portion included guys promoting to O-6, death, grounding, etc. Of the 1578 pilots that were analyzed in this retention exercise, 1420 voted with their feet! Yes, if you do the math that comes in at just under 90% attrition. Great job USAF leadership. Any of the old timers find this eerily similar to the late 90's?

AFPC link below: Pull up the Static charts for the report discussed. Stats are part of Table 5.

https://access.afpc.a...Z1pub1&_debug=0

[ThreeHoler]

From the same paragraph:

However, it should be noted that even with the large increase in losses, the overall Pilot inventory shrunk by only 58 pilots when compared to last year’s end FY inventory.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Karl Hungus]

I guess your perspective in the AF really depends on your community because in mine, I would say most guys in mine are in the stay till 20 category, however about 75% are considering not taking the bonus in exchange for the ability to punch if the next assignment involves a UAV or a 365.

I really would like to know what the percentages are of those that are completely fed up with the AF and those who aren't. If I was a young guy reading most of the threads here, I would be pretty scared about joining up. I guess I haven't been kicked in the balls hard enough to share the same sentiment of a lot of guys here.

So the relative handful of people flying Gulfstreams, BBJs, and 75s out of DC to cool places worldwide, all while never deploying, are happy with the AF (and yet still won't sign the bonus)? Weird.

[TnkrToad]

Of the 1578 pilots that were analyzed in this retention exercise, 1420 voted with their feet!

Best part is looking at the Mobility Pilot breakdown in that report . . . lost 635 out of 597 eligible (106% loss rate-not sure how that happens) last FY. Mobility losses in FY11 were higher (80% of elibles) than any other community, as well. While there's a lot of justified hand-wringing over CAF manning and retention, Big Blue seems to have its head in the sand over the future of the heavy driver community. Heavy dudes have been filling CAF billets on staffs/in MC-12s/AETC/etc. for some time now--what happens when the heavy driver well dries up? The large early-90s year groups are retiring/getting promoted to O-6/etc., and pretty much the only other "fat" year groups in the heavy community haven't reached the ends of their respective SUPT commitments. BL, the pilot inventory is going to shrink by a lot more than 58 when large percentages of large year groups forego the bonus and walk right into airline & Guard/Reserve jobs--and many of those losses are going to come from the MAF community, which despite budget woes is still flying. All indications are this will be worse than the late 90s.

[scoobs]

I thought when you joined you were an officer first? Or does this only apply to the Marines.

[epsilon]

I thought when you joined you were an officer first? Or does this only apply to the Marines.

Care to elaborate?

[10percenttruth]

I thought when you joined you were an officer first? Or does this only apply to the Marines.

A) you're a douche.

B ) your quote isn't even right, every marine is a rifleman first.

Edited June 4, 2013 by 10percenttruth

[jstarsshag]

What is your point scoobs?

I'm an officer first... an officer that would like to earn a paycheck that compensates me for my abilities and time lost away from my family. If the airlines (or any other career path for that matter) does a better job, then this officer will punch out and make good for his family. Is that a problem?

Spot on 10percenttruth!

[slackline]

What is your point scoobs?

I'm an officer first... an officer that would like to earn a paycheck that compensates me for my abilities and time lost away from my family. If the airlines (or any other career path for that matter) does a better job, then this officer will punch out and make good for his family. Is that a problem?

Spot on 10percenttruth!

Ignore scoobs. He's a troll, and always has been.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Champ Kind]

So the relative handful of people flying Gulfstreams, BBJs, and 75s out of DC to cool places worldwide, all while never deploying, are happy with the AF (and yet still won't sign the bonus)? Weird.

And deal with DVs all the time? Eff that. I'll pay for my own type rating.

[C-21.Pilot]

Rumor floating around here at KRND is 5 @ 25K and 7 @ 35K....

Our OG discussed today...

[Jughead]

the ability to punch if the next assignment involves a UAV or a 365.

"UAV," got it.

"365"--that's a dangerous game. If your primary (or at least a significant) motivator is to avoid a 365, taking a PCS (w/ it's two year commitment) may land you a 365 six months to a year down the road that you can't decline....

[HeloDude]

Rumor floating around here at KRND is 5 @ 25K and 7 @ 35K....

Our OG discussed today...

IIRC, ACP can't be more than $25K/year per the latest signed budget/authorization act.

[Snooter]

If I pay off 100,000 of my pilot training costs a year, why can't I get that 100,000/year as a bonus when I'm done paying off my pilot training commitment?

Edited June 4, 2013 by Snooter

[Homestar]

"UAV," got it.

"365"--that's a dangerous game. If your primary (or at least a significant) motivator is to avoid a 365, taking a PCS (w/ it's two year commitment) may land you a 365 six months to a year down the road that you can't decline....

I thought 365s required at least 1 year on station? Average CONUS PCS only incurs a 2 year commitment, so they'd have to time it perfectly.

[Recut]

I really would like to know what the percentages are of those that are completely fed up with the AF and those who aren't. If I was a young guy reading most of the threads here, I would be pretty scared about joining up. I guess I haven't been kicked in the balls hard enough to share the same sentiment of a lot of guys here.

The young guys need to be aware of what the ADSC means. For the aspiring pilots: It is not an agreement that the AF will let you fly for 10 years. Nowadays, it prevents people from punching when faced with a 365 non-flying job, UAV, etc. Who knows how the AF's "creative" force management techniques will utilize that ADSC in the years ahead.

I will finish my ADSC in 2 years and it will take me to 16.5 years of service. I already know that I will not take a bonus even though I will be so close to retirement because I have seen the ugly reality of having an ADSC. I would have to have a written guarantee that I would be flying household goods around the Pacific/Carribean or I could punch in order to sign another ADSC at this point.

[czecksikhs]

I would have to have a written guarantee....

Seems like you haven't learned a thing about what the USAF will and won't reverse themselves on.

[Recut]

Seems like you haven't learned a thing about what the USAF will and won't reverse themselves on.

Good point.

Add: I have been stop lossed and through a RIF in my career.......the one with the VSP debacle nonetheless.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Recut

[stract]

These are the first two line from the introduction for the AFPC Officer Rated Retention Analysis Report FY2012. While I'm surprised the ACP take-rate was as high as it was (although still in decline), the retention numbers are funny as hell. In FY2012, the number of pilots analyzed to move out of the line flyer position was 1578. The bulk of those dudes are first time eligible to separate or retire. The remaining portion included guys promoting to O-6, death, grounding, etc. Of the 1578 pilots that were analyzed in this retention exercise, 1420 voted with their feet! Yes, if you do the math that comes in at just under 90% attrition. Great job USAF leadership. Any of the old timers find this eerily similar to the late 90's?

AFPC link below: Pull up the Static charts for the report discussed. Stats are part of Table 5.

https://access.afpc.a...Z1pub1&_debug=0

It's also interesting to note the decline in experience in communities...retention dropped 30% in CSAR from the previous FY, and TARS dropped 2.5 years worth of experience. Someone should correlate that to mishap rates and see if anything significant shows up.

[tac airlifter]

It's also interesting to note the decline in experience in communities...retention dropped 30% in CSAR from the previous FY, and TARS dropped 2.5 years worth of experience. Someone should correlate that to mishap rates and see if anything significant shows up.

Anecdotally from my own experience I don't think there's a direct correlation between the younger crew force and mishaps. But there is something just as bad as mishaps the AF doesn't track and can't quantify- mission success or failure. I see young guys all the time making poor choices resulting in failure, but the plane lands safely so it's never more than a brief discussion. But mission fail at the tactical level over and over does have strategic ramifications.

For example, I see guys not being aggressive enough or not knowing how to be assertive during the limited opportunities we have to action objectives. I see guys weather cancel all the time when truthfully, the mission could still be safely accomplished. I see guys who can't do their fragged mission for some reason (WX, MX...etc) who outright cancel instead of looking around the AO, talking to the user and seeing what could be salvaged from the day. These are general examples. The truth is there are terrorists walking around right now who survived our strikes because we sent guys too young and inexperienced into the most challenging tactical situations with inadequate preparation. Or we sent guys who never should have been upgraded but were anyway to continue feeding the machine.

Bottom line, I don't see young guys crashing planes. I see them being timid. I see them unable to accomplish missions where the script isn't followed precisely. And what's worse- I see many of them continue on with successful careers after shaming themselves with incompetence in combat. I think the biggest problem with our Air Force is the inability to tie combat success/failure to career success/failure; were that issue fixed most others would resolve themselves.

[Fuzz]

Anecdotally from my own experience I don't think there's a direct correlation between the younger crew force and mishaps. But there is something just as bad as mishaps the AF doesn't track and can't quantify- mission success or failure. I see young guys all the time making poor choices resulting in failure, but the plane lands safely so it's never more than a brief discussion. But mission fail at the tactical level over and over does have strategic ramifications.

For example, I see guys not being aggressive enough or not knowing how to be assertive during the limited opportunities we have to action objectives. I see guys weather cancel all the time when truthfully, the mission could still be safely accomplished. I see guys who can't do their fragged mission for some reason (WX, MX...etc) who outright cancel instead of looking around the AO, talking to the user and seeing what could be salvaged from the day. These are general examples. The truth is there are terrorists walking around right now who survived our strikes because we sent guys too young and inexperienced into the most challenging tactical situations with inadequate preparation. Or we sent guys who never should have been upgraded but were anyway to continue feeding the machine.

Bottom line, I don't see young guys crashing planes. I see them being timid. I see them unable to accomplish missions whereat out o the script isn't followed precisely. And what's worse- I see many of them continue on with successful careers after shaming themselves with incompetence in combat. I think the biggest problem with our Air Force is the inability to tie combat success/failure to career success/failure; were that issue fixed most others would resolve themselves.

As a young guy, I will say I can definitely see this as far as not being assertive or just canceling the mission. I will say though I think it's an effect of thought processes espoused by leadership and instructors such as "safety first, mission always" ; "be safe, be conservative"; or "good job that was the conservative decision". Everything I have seen is based on being safe and being conservative in a profession that is inherently dangerous at times and requires risks, obviously there is risk mitigation, and I'm not saying ignore the rules and fly like a bat out of hell. To me it doesn't give me the impression that if I do take a risk and something happens that my leadership (not my immediate leadership at this particular time) all the way up the chain will back me. Sure I may be looking at a Q3, but when you have things like the McChord Airdrop Court Martial or any other mishap and the conversation basically accepts Q3s as a given and goes straight to FEBs and whether guys will keep their wings and job, I think I see those situations sitting in the back of most of my newer ACs minds when they consider "is this worth it".