Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[ThreeHoler]

For the 11F thing - anyone know what happens for 11F types that are doing a UPT gig or something else that you perform by having a different duty AFSC. I mean UPT instructors are 11Ts technically, does that mean they don't get the 11F deal if they're at a UPT gig at the time?

Depends on your PAFSC. If your PAFSC says 11F and you have one of the correct RDTM codes (listed in the PDSM), then you qualify. If your PAFSC says 11T...then you get the 5 year plan by the PDSM.

How does one determine YAS? That is the one element I need to understand for the offer since I am Late Rated... From the way it reads, I would consider myself ineligible.

YAS is determined from your ASD (Aviation Service Date). Unless you have exceptional circumstances, your ASD is the date you started UPT. Example: I started UPT in 2002 and I am over 11 YAS.

I feel like the AF and Congress has been sticking it to me a few times the past 4 years. I incurred $210k of debt from a short sale when I PCS'd from Vegas in 2010 (from a plain generic house on a traditional mortgage and not a $750k ginormous one on an interest only note). I was not eligible for HAP and I made too much to qualify for Obama's Making Homes Affordable program. The military friendly bank, USAA, stuck me with the balance to the tune of $748/mo for 20 years at 0.51% and my assignment could not be reclama'd even though I was slated to move during the same summer cycle as my return from a 10 month deployment.

Now there is likely no bonus to subside the sizable debt incurred from my last PCS... Its not like I live outside my means, but I have 3 children and we have 2 cheap-o cars that are paid for...

You're the dude that bought at what was likely the height of a housing bubble instead of renting. No one to blame but yourself. The AF pays us to rent, not own. That said, I'm willing to take a risk and own a house, but I bought at a much lower market point.

[Rusty Pipes]

You're the dude that bought at what was likely the height of a housing bubble instead of renting. No one to blame but yourself. The AF pays us to rent, not own. That said, I'm willing to take a risk and own a house, but I bought at a much lower market point.

I moved to a new assignment in the Spring of 2007 to a Base that was remodeling it's base housing, so the wait list to live on Base was over a year. Because of that fact the rental market in the area was essentially non-existent (other than living in a double wide... not joking). There were about 25 of us who PCS'd in around the same time with the only option being buying a house or commuting over an hour each way to work. I would have loved to have been able to rent a house, but I wasn't about to put my family in a neighborhood full or crack houses and rotating meth labs. 2 or 3 guys did short sales since, but aside from that the rest of us are landlords paying about $500 a month out of pocket because none of us qualified for HAP, etc. I know scores and scores of guys in this exact same boat... not sure I'd be throwing stones at the new guy here!

[11F]

For the 11F thing - anyone know what happens for 11F types that are doing a UPT gig or something else that you perform by having a different duty AFSC. I mean UPT instructors are 11Ts technically, does that mean they don't get the 11F deal if they're at a UPT gig at the time?

There's an area on your SURF that says something like "Core Flag" or something like that. Next to it, it should say either 11F or 11T.

[bama1]

Has anyone been able to connect yet? Still getting the unable to open...

[TnkrToad]

So, why FOUO? Who are they worried will read about it? Seems funny that this year's program theoretically builds on prior years' successes, when according to the FY12 report, the "50% up-front initiative for pilots in 11F and 11U PAFSCs appeared to have little effect on the overall take rate for the fighter community as FY12’s take rate fell below both FY10 and FY11 program numbers." Should be really interesting as Big Blue watches large percentages of heavy pilots get out. (Above quote taken from FY12 Retention Analysis--which has no classification).

[SVFR]

Yesterday the link said I was not eligiable. Today I can't access the site. I guess that is an improvement.

[BFM this]

Story is up on AFTimes.

I bet they hit their 65%.

I weep for the mass of "fighter pilots" that don't understand the value of their own capabilities and qualifications, and having the OPTIONS available to ply either, be it service or in the private sector should continued shitty management drive that way.

The AF might as well be offering magic beans.

[Dupe]

So, why FOUO? Who are they worried will read about it? Seems funny that this year's program theoretically builds on prior years' successes, when according to the FY12 report, the "50% up-front initiative for pilots in 11F and 11U PAFSCs appeared to have little effect on the overall take rate for the fighter community as FY12’s take rate fell below both FY10 and FY11 program numbers." Should be really interesting as Big Blue watches large percentages of heavy pilots get out. (Above quote taken from FY12 Retention Analysis--which has no classification).

Devil's advocate: Perhaps watching large percentages of heavy pilots get out is a "success." Most heavy platforms are manned well above 100%. Separations from 11Ms to the airlines now may be better for our country in the long run. If the much-anticipated airline hiring boom comes to fruition, the AF can later retool bonuses to 11Ms.

[Jaded]

I'm not sure if $1500 a month from 16-20 years is really going to be enough incentive for people who are considering leaving.

[HeloDude]

Story is up on AFTimes.

Anybody take the moment to read the handful of comments? Not surprising, they're all pretty much negative in basically saying that they AF is screwing over the E's to give the pilots more money blah blah blah.

I have actually tried to explain to some non-rated folks (O's and E's) why the AF gives the bonus, and though some actually get it from a fiscal sense (that it's cheaper for the AF to give the bonus) many still think it's BS. Given the current fiscal climate it will be interesting to see how the rest of the AF reacts to this one.

[Rusty Pipes]

Devil's advocate: Perhaps watching large percentages of heavy pilots get out is a "success." Most heavy platforms are manned well above 100%. Separations from 11Ms to the airlines now may be better for our country in the long run. If the much-anticipated airline hiring boom comes to fruition, the AF can later retool bonuses to 11Ms.

Complete misnomer... The sawdust and chicken bones numbers they have makes it look that way (overmanned), but reality is much different. So many units are not given credit for mandatory taskings of crews, especially taskings that often overlap (multiple simultaneous alerts, msns that require augmented AR crews, etc). Not to mention the fact that units have been continuously tasked well over 100% of their crew manning since 2002 with OEF kicking in full gear. I have buds who are AMC Sq CC's and Dep OGs that say they are already getting crushed by so many experienced pilots bailing for the Res/ANG when they get orders in the past year in anticipation of airline hirings and they know this is just the tip of the iceberg... the flood gates have yet to open and nobody is listening when they voice their concerns to leadership/AFPC. Retooling bonuses for 11M's... they are about 2-3 yrs behind the power curve on that one already!

Edited June 26, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[TnkrToad]

The sawdust and chicken bones numbers they have makes it look that way (overmanned), but reality is much different.

You beat me to it--well said . . . but I submit that the problem is even worse than that. Not only are ops units getting crushed, but if one takes a look around the staffs, there are all kinds of 11Ms filling billets that would normally be filled by CAF bubbas. So you not only lose your experienced/competent aviators from flying units--cue downward spiral--but the situation gets even worse when ops units have to pick up slack when higher headquarters work doesn't get done/or staff outputs suck due to undermanning or crappy quality control (staffs take whoever decides to stay in, not who's best qualified). I shutter to think how bad it can get if Big Blue doesn't realize the scope of the 11M manning prob until September 13, then doesn't do anything to fix it until rollout of the FY14 bonus plan 'til Apr/May/Jun next year. Barring a "happy circumstance" like another 9/11 to screw the airlines/encourage 11Ms to stay in, we're in for a rough ride.

[matmacwc]

It's going to be a mess, good luck all (Butters) when this transpires. The fighter retention might go up, but the rest will not, I'm betting on none of it going up.

[BFM this]

The perfect storm:

-11F take rate tanks, like below 50% tanks

-11F retention actually goes up

This, IMO, would scare the living shit out of AFPC.

Won't actually happen, but it would be funny.

[Azimuth]

Anybody take the moment to read the handful of comments? Not surprising, they're all pretty much negative in basically saying that they AF is screwing over the E's to give the pilots more money blah blah blah.

I have actually tried to explain to some non-rated folks (O's and E's) why the AF gives the bonus, and though some actually get it from a fiscal sense (that it's cheaper for the AF to give the bonus) many still think it's BS. Given the current fiscal climate it will be interesting to see how the rest of the AF reacts to this one.

That's because they're ill-informed, their hatred towards anyone in a bag blinds them, or both. I'm a flying E and the USAF paid me 25K three years ago to re-enlist and also gave more promotions to my career field because we're critically manned. I've also seen pilots RIF'd without any of the typical negative indicators (UIF, Art 15, etc), just probably a weaker PRF than average. No one is "screwing over the E's", they for most part don't understand the O side of promotions/retention because they aren't exposed to it.

[Dupe]

Complete misnomer... The sawdust and chicken bones numbers they have makes it look that way (overmanned), but reality is much different. So many units are not given credit for mandatory taskings of crews, especially taskings that often overlap (multiple simultaneous alerts, msns that require augmented AR crews, etc). Not to mention the fact that units have been continuously tasked well over 100% of their crew manning since 2002 with OEF kicking in full gear. I have buds who are AMC Sq CC's and Dep OGs that say they are already getting crushed by so many experienced pilots bailing for the Res/ANG when they get orders in the past year in anticipation of airline hirings and they know this is just the tip of the iceberg... the flood gates have yet to open and nobody is listening when they voice their concerns to leadership/AFPC. Retooling bonuses for 11M's... they are about 2-3 yrs behind the power curve on that one already!

Oh..I get it. How will the picture change when we stop sending massive amounts of crap back and forth to the CENTCOM AOR? I'll believe this airline hiring boom when I see it... I think some of the majors still have guys out on furlough. From a macro level, maybe a guy that gets out in the 12-16 year mark and joins the Reserves until retirement age is a better investment than a guy who retires from active duty at 20. I think the AF would be wise to make some of the staff functions be traditional Reserve billets: we can then keep the experience we want (say 11F vs 11M) while not losing an active flyer. Bottom line: the bonus should be used in conjunction with total force options... I fear it isn't.

[HuggyU2]

I think some of the majors still have guys out on furlough.

Yep. About 1300 on furlough at United. Some of those guys were hired in 1999.

Yes,... 1999.

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For those at the 11 year point who are considering this 9 year bonus, please read the fine print. My question is this:

If you get passed over for O-5, can the AF involuntarily separate you?

If you are RIF'd, will the AF require you to pay back your remaining bonus?

Bottom line:

- under what terms can YOU get out of the bonus early?

- under what terms can the AF terminate the contract unilaterally?

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Let's analyze the word "BONUS".

It comes from the Latin root "BONE",... a verb,... which means "to sexually assault".

The "US" suffix is the third-person-plural of the verb BONE.

Therefore "BONUS", in the vernacular, translates loosely as "bone us".

Edited June 26, 2013 by Huggyu2

[jazzdude]

...also gave more promotions to my career field because we're critically manned. I've also seen pilots RIF'd without any of the typical negative indicators (UIF, Art 15, etc), just probably a weaker PRF than average.

Here's a crazy idea...maybe AFPC should consider adjusting officer promotion rates based on AFSC to shape the force to what is needed.

[HuggyU2]

Ridiculous.

Have you seen your mental health rep lately??

Until you do, stop taking Crazy Pills.

[pawnman]

Here's a crazy idea...maybe AFPC should consider adjusting officer promotion rates based on AFSC to shape the force to what is needed.

Or if not promotion rates, at least RIF boards.

[RTB]

About 1300 on furlough at United. Some of those guys were hired in 1999.

Why are they hiring new guys with so many still on furlough? I know a couple guys who just got hired by them but like you said, still a ton of guys on furlough. Does that mean all of them are voluntary?

For those at the 11 year point who are considering this 9 year bonus, please read the fine print.

I'll add my 2 cents. Be sure to think about what you will probably be doing down the road. Don't sign because you love what you're doing NOW. That's going to change. Could get better, could easily get worse. 9 years is a LONG time to roll the dice that you'll still be happy with the job.

Edited June 26, 2013 by RTB

[epsilon]

Anybody else have an RDTM that is blank...mine is at least on the DVB.

Update: apparently it displays on my surf in ams....why would they have two products that don't display the same thing? Standard

Edited June 26, 2013 by epsilon

[Rusty Pipes]

Does any 11F who is considering signing a 9 year bonus honestly think there is the slightest chance in hell that they will be flying a fighter (or anything with an actual cockpit) 9 years from now? Just remember that as soon as you sign that paperwork you just became the guy who can't say no... FOR 9 YEARS!!! Signing a 9 year bonus to be part of some new "career pilot" type program would be very tempting to many, but signing up for 9 years of complete uncertainty, especially after all the RIF, VSP, non-continuation BS in the past 2 years has got to be one of the craziest things I've heard of in my career!!!

[sqwatch]

Does any 11F who is considering signing a 9 year bonus honestly think there is the slightest chance in hell that they will be flying a fighter (or anything with an actual cockpit) 9 years from now?

Yes. What's more absurd is considering current 11f manning vs cockpits/future MWSs, limited releases for school (because of too few 11Fs), that you will fill a desk for 9 consecutive years. After a few years, I'm getting used to this PCS thing and the uncertainty involved.

Just remember that as soon as you sign that paperwork you just became the guy who can't say no... FOR 9 YEARS!!!

Holy shlt, he's right! Almost as bad as signing up for service for 11+ years right out of college, except now I get paid like a doctor.

but signing up for 9 years of complete uncertainty, especially after all the RIF, VSP, non-continuation BS in the past 2 years has got to be one of the craziest things I've heard of in my career!!!

and for 225k I may just accept their apology.

No one is silly enough to find anything new in your rant. We are well aware of the uncertainty in military service - 9 year commitment or one VML cycle. As always, the decision is made based on family/personal reasons. The extra money can pay for a couple college degrees, give momma the kitchen she wants, or buy a couple years worth of cheap booze/fast women. Only a few examples of personal reasons and the money is in the decision matrix.

On the other hand, no one is twisting my arm to stay in (aside from a nice new incentive). There’s something to be said for the family time that comes with a civilian job.

BL, I try to imagine what consequences my decision will have when I’m of retirement age. I’ve yet to hear a retired fighter pilot say “I wish I would have punched at the end of my initial commitment”. I have heard guys who punch say they love what they’re doing after the military. I guess I’ll have to make a decision based on what’s available to me and my family, and try to weed out the chaff from the ‘misery loves company’ crowd.

[SVFR]

They take their taxes before you see the money so come April you shouldn't have any surprises. However it does appear to be enough money to push someone from the 25 to 28% or 28 to 33% bracket depending on marriage status and use of tax deferred shelters.