Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Rusty Pipes]

I realize you got left out and it sucks. But the bonus is a management tool. Seems to me that most guys with 16+ years have incentive enough to stay for another 4 years...a likely seven figure retirement package, sts. Some guys may get out at that point, but not many. So I can see why they would not offer the bonus to dudes that far along. I actually think it's a smart management decision considering limited resources to throw at the problem. I say that while also fully acknowledging that it sucks for guys in your position.

If you or anyone else is so pissed off at the AF that you would get out at 16+ years then go for it. But let the emotions settle and do some serious thinking before you do, since you'll be leaving an enormous amount of retirement money/benefits on the table. One more assignment and you'll get paid to breathe for the rest of your life. That's better than any bonus.

OK... fair enough, who wouldn't be pissed about losing out on $125,000 because of a technicality? But emotions aside, the AF is not looking at the big picture as much as they try to preach it from on high. Not only is there a pilot shortage (especially with 11Fs), there is also a sudden huge experience shortage that is a huge sucker punch in the face of every MWS that is not being seriously considered... no matter what you fly, guys are jumping ship left and right! Unless everyone is lying here, retention is not very high these days in any airframe! The number of guys who are late rated/prior Es and at 16 yrs and a day as of 30 Sep that lost out because of this random technicality most likely aren't going to punch and those numbers are pretty small, but what is the real goal here? Do we want our most experienced pilots to stay or not? The guy who did 4 yrs as a boom or loadmaster, got his degree at night then went to OTS and UPT who now happens to be a 4 Ship Flight Lead or a C-17 SOLL II EP... does the AF want to lose the experience of this guy who now has 19-20 yrs in and no real incentive to stay? This isn't some random scenario... my three prior E buds from UPT (all 11Ms and all EP/IPs) dropped their papers since Monday because they were not eligible for the Bonus. The two I personally talked to said they would have gladly stayed for another 5 yrs for $125K. $25K a year to keep these guys is a drop in the bucket compared to what it will cost the AF to replace them. 5 yrs ago there were very few guys jumping ship at the 11-12 yr point because there were no other options when their ADSC was up... how many are getting out now? I think there were 26 of us who graduated from my UPT class... as of last Friday there were only 7 left on AD and 3 just dropped their papers. Would be interesting to know if this is an anomaly, but only 4 left of 26 within less than a year of ADSC expiration doesn't bode well for our pilot force.

[Chuck17]

. how many are getting out now? I think there were 26 of us who graduated from my UPT class... as of last Friday there were only 7 left on AD and 3 just dropped their papers. Would be interesting to know if this is an anomaly, but only 4 left of 26 within less than a year of ADSC expiration doesn't bode well for our pilot force.

28 graduates in my class: 2 foreign, 2 ANG, 3 AFRES, 21 AD. Of the 21 AD folks, 4 have punched thus far that I know of... 90 days left on ADSC, 17 of 21 still in.

I'm not shitting on your argument, I'm just saying there is likely a bell-curve in a file in some desk at AFPC that supports your end and my end and everything in between.

FWIW, I just signed up.

Chuck

[Rusty Pipes]

28 graduates in my class: 2 foreign, 2 ANG, 3 AFRES, 21 AD. Of the 21 AD folks, 4 have punched thus far that I know of... 90 days left on ADSC, 17 of 21 still in.

I'm not shitting on your argument, I'm just saying there is likely a bell-curve in a file in some desk at AFPC that supports your end and my end and everything in between.

FWIW, I just signed up.

Chuck

It will be interesting to see in a year what those numbers look like for your class and what the Bonus take rate was. I went to a wedding for a buddy last summer with several guys from my UPT Class and I'd say our class numbers were similar to what you said above. The RPA guys that were there were very vocal about saying they were getting out, but I was pretty shocked to talk to guys 6 months later to hear who dropped papers. I wonder if the Bonus was available last Fall for the start of the FY if they would have got more from my class to stay.

[Bergman]

28 graduates in my class: 2 foreign, 2 ANG, 3 AFRES, 21 AD. Of the 21 AD folks, 4 have punched thus far that I know of..

Who has punched? I can only think of one!

FWIW, I just signed up. Chuck

...surprising no one!

[di1630]

It will be interesting to see in a year what those numbers look like for your class and what the Bonus take rate was.

I think they will miss the 65% retention goal because they rolled it out 1/2 waythrough the FY when a bunch of bonus eligible dudes already punched. From the 11F guys I've talked to, the $225k option has not changed their minds. Most dudes line up ANG/Res jobs well before they hit their point and have their minds made up.

I think it is standard USAF trying to throw money at a complex problem. Who wins?....guys who were gonna stay in regardless.

[HeloDude]

I think they will miss the 65% retention goal because they rolled it out 1/2 waythrough the FY when a bunch of bonus eligible dudes already punched. From the 11F guys I've talked to, the $225k option has not changed their minds. Most dudes line up ANG/Res jobs well before they hit their point and have their minds made up.

If guys haven't actually separated, they can always pull back their separation papers/request to stay on. If the AF is that hard up on pilots, I'm assuming most, if not all, would be approved to stay on.

Who wins?....guys who were gonna stay in regardless.

Exactly...who wouldn't take extra money for doing the same job you were going to do anyway?

[Rusty Pipes]

I think they will miss the 65% retention goal because they rolled it out 1/2 waythrough the FY when a bunch of bonus eligible dudes already punched. From the 11F guys I've talked to, the $225k option has not changed their minds. Most dudes line up ANG/Res jobs well before they hit their point and have their minds made up.

I think it is standard USAF trying to throw money at a complex problem. Who wins?....guys who were gonna stay in regardless.

I know several guys who were in this boat. They had already reclama’d an assignment last year, not showing their cards by just asking to stay for a 4th year. When the assignments came around in the winter for summer moves the AF didn't give them very good options. Their choice should have been to take the assignment along with the bonus, take the assignment with just the two year ADSC for the PCS or drop their papers. I have no idea how many would have stayed had the bonus option been available last Fall at the beginning of the FY, but the AF certainly didn't help themselves by not providing that option. Most of the guys who got out just walked across the street to the Res Sq and changed patches... so the AF didn't really completely lose them, but AD certainly ended up bleeding out a lot of experience/talent by not even giving them a decent reason to stay.

What kills me is the prior E's not being eligible due to the 16 yr eligibility. Lots of talent that very well may have stayed to 24-25 yrs with a bonus. The late rated guys (yes, I'm one of them) who had bad timing; well it just sucks, but I get it from a financial point of view for the AF because very few will bail at 16+ yrs. But if they really are worried about a pilot shortage and budget they are going to make out a lot better giving the bonus to the prior E with 19 yrs in than they do to all my buds who just signed the bonus last year or this year that will spend 4 of those 5 bonus years at Maxwell and then Staff. Just like the late rate guys... they vast majority of those guys were probably going to stay anyway.

Career pilot track... that's the way to go if you ask me! Works out well for the Brits (at least that is what our exchange guys have always said anyway).

[General Chang]

Rusty and bonus apologists,

You have to take a step back and look at this the way we see it here at the P-gon- from a "Big Blue" perspective- not popular, I know, but to make any sense of this, you have to take the personal emotion out of it.

1. We do not need pilot O-4's and O-5's at the 20+ year point to stay in. Especially -11Ms. Period. We are and will be way too fat for years to come. In fact, the sooner they retire, the sooner the FGO officer "glut" can start to unplug, and we can get the promotion cycles back on-track.

2. In general, we do not need more -11M's to stay in. Whether or not the airline hiring bonanza occurs is irrelevant at this point in time. Even if the mass exodus kicks off in 2017, the evidence simply does not exist right now to warrant an overreaction on the Air Force's part. Devil's advocate- the airline hiring boom happens in 2017. The Air Force is late to correct. No biggie- the Air Force will fix it with money at that time. Big blue has "fixed" these problems in the past, each and every time, and it will do so again in the future. Contrary to popular belief, the fix will cost less than throwing away bonus money for years and years with no quantifiable return for that money.

3. We (the AF) are in a fiscal nightmare right now. Partially created by our own doing, partly from sequestration. As a result, we're really taking a look at needs vs. wants. That's a very, very good thing. It's a self-examination that should have been happening all along, but nobody cared when money was flowing. Everything (bonuses, personnel cuts, aircraft adds, base closures) MUST begin and end with the money.

4. Reiteration of several previous posts- pilots, you are not entitled to a bonus. Ever. In fact, I'm surprised the following didn't gain traction at the puzzle palace:

FY2013

- No bonus for initial eligibles over the 15 year point on 30 Sep 13

- No bonus for -11Ms

- Same $25K/5 for all other -11's

After the initial outrage and relative purge of this year's -11M class, the Air Force could have come back with the following:

FY2014

- No bonus for initial eligibles over the 16 year point on 30 Sep 14 (same as the rule just released)

- Reinstate $25K/5 for -11Ms; maintain this for everyone except -11Fs

- 11Fs $25K/7

This novel idea has the advantage of weeding out a glut of FGO's, making every class on the backside (FY14, FY15, etc) feel special that they're even getting any bonus, AND being much cheaper for the AF. Before the spears come out, yes, I understand it kills one class year of -11Ms, but it would help pilot retention overall, the Air Force would save money in the long run, and like I said, future pilots would feel quite "special" for getting a bonus at all.

Final words- it amazes me how many people on this site talk about "people they know" who are getting out ASAP; the numbers simply don't back that up. How can the Pentagon and Randolph use anything but the quantitative data they're pulling down? They can't, they won't, and you know it. Leadership cannot simply go with a "gut feel" when spending the taxpayers dollars. Military pay is generous, health care is extremely generous, retirement for life is ridiculously generous--the masses will not exit for feeling slighted by the bonus/bonus rules, and leadership knows that. Heck, wait until you hear about the personnel cuts coming in FY2014.

The Air Force has been extremely generous with this year's bonus for every pilot- leadership could have chosen to skin this cat as oulined above, but they didn't, and 2001/2002 pilots who are eligible this year should be grateful with hat in hand.

Enough realism- probably more than most of you can handle. Let the spears fly.

Edited June 27, 2013 by General Chang

[Recut]

Rusty and bonus apologists,

You have to take a step back and look at this the way we see it here at the P-gon- from a "Big Blue" perspective- not popular, I know, but to make any sense of this, you have to take the personal emotion out of it.

1. We do not need pilot O-4's and O-5's at the 20+ year point to stay in. Especially -11Ms. Period. We are and will be way too fat for years to come. In fact, the sooner they retire, the sooner the FGO officer "glut" can start to unplug, and we can get the promotion cycles back on-track.

2. In general, we do not need more -11M's to stay in.

I realize you said "in general" but why are 11Ms specifically excluded from palace chasing? Don't get it.

[General Chang]

Recut,

Very good question/point. I should have written, "We do not need more FGO -11Ms to stay in." That phraseology would have been more accurate. The unscheduled "glut" is at the senior Maj/Lt Col/Col ranks.

[PirateAF]

Thanks for the great post Chang. This 11m already made the decision pre-bonus announcement but good to know. Big Blue has always been good to me and I wish them the best.

[Rusty Pipes]

Recut,

Very good question/point. I should have written, "We do not need more FGO -11Ms to stay in." That phraseology would have been more accurate. The unscheduled "glut" is at the senior Maj/Lt Col/Col ranks.

How can you call it an "unscheduled glut" of FGOs as 11Ms when the AF recalled scores of FGO 11Ms back through the return to AD program? We had retired and Res recalled O-5's all over the place... many of which are still around. I know they signed what amounted to limited contracts, but it certainly wasn't unscheduled. Apparently someone thought we needed FGO 11Ms...

[zmoney]

Rusty and bonus apologists,

... words ...

Enough realism- probably more than most of you can handle. Let the spears fly.

First, awesome handle (Star Trek VI is a favorite of mine). Second, as an 11M... I agree with your post. I thought it made sense. Thanks for the insights.

[Rusty Pipes]

The Air Force has been extremely generous with this year's bonus for every pilot- leadership could have chosen to skin this cat as oulined above, but they didn't, and 2001/2002 pilots who are eligible this year should be grateful with hat in hand.

Not to throw spears; this is great insight from someone sitting in the puzzle palace with a "Big Blue" perspective and it is very appreciated... but this statement and thought process is the exact reason we lose the best guys in the Air Force. Telling a bunch of guys who have spent the last 10+ years fighting two wars, non-stop deployments and trying to balance watching their kids grow up (if they aren't divorced) with arbitrary "promotion requirements" that essentially, "you're lucky to be here and should be grateful" is probably not the best retention policy. Maybe that is intentional, but it sure doesn't help to raise the morale of your crew force.

Crew dawgs are going to bitch, it’s part of the job description... but it isn't by happenstance that we are in this situation. I get there are lots of really smart people at the Pentagon and at AFPC who are looking at realism and "the big picture"... on the other hand for the past 5-10 yrs there was that same level of smart people in these same jobs who obviously got it wrong which has put us in the situation we are currently in. I've sat in the room with the 3 Star within the past 2-3 yrs who said that if pilots want to complain that they can quit and they will easily be replaced. Seems he got the quitting part right... not so sure he got the "should be grateful with hat in hand" part right though because it doesn't look like they will be so easy to relpace (especially those 11Fs).

[General Chang]

Rusty,

Second post first- yes, the last twelve years have sucked from a family perspective- do not think your senior leaders don't recognize that. They simply have no tools to show that appreciation other than language. When an O-9 uses improper language that does not reflect the appreciation and admiration that our senior leadership has for our troops, it is disappointing and discouraging, but it does not represent the opinions of AF senior leadership, from Gen Welsh on down. Unfortunately, the bonus is not the forum for appreciation to be shown. The bonus is all about the numbers and the money. Period, dot.

Decent question re: recalls. Initial recalls due to 9/11. Makes sense. Another recall program in 2009/10 primarily due to UAS requirements that were off-the-charts and increasing (somewhat to fill staff positions as well). Officer recall contracts were for 2-4 years, so we are still working through the backside of those contract lengths. Recalls used for targeted, specific purposes.

Specifically relating to recalls used to fill staff billets: In recent years, we have taken a serious look at staffing issues across all MAJCOM, HAF, and COCOM staffs. With the recent NAF consolidations, wrap-up of OEF, continued reduction in GO billets (this one is key), and nine more years of sequestration, you should see smaller military staffs in the coming years, ideally negating further recalls for this purpose. Will the workload abate for the souls in those positions? To be determined. Staff leadership at the O-6 through O-10 level will be required to be innovative with decreasing staff levels, and they simply must communicate up the chain if the workload becomes too demanding for their FGOs.

Leadership won't stand up to their bosses, you say? Honestly, that is a common myth. Everyone believes their own leadership "shuts up and colors," but I'm here to tell you, we have an amazing crop of leaders, especially at the O-6 and O-7 levels, that have and will continue to call a spade a spade in front of their bosses. However, not even the O-6's, O-7's, and O-8's are looking at the entire picture on all really big issues; truly, that resides at the O-9 and O-10 levels. When the final decision has been made, we salute smartly and execute regardless of popularity. But please, don't for a minute believe that your O-6 or O-7-level Commander/Director/Boss is purely a "yes man" because of the decisions rolling down. Most of them have the integrity to offer their thoughts, then execute once the order has been given as though the decision was their own, regardless of perception. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. And you know what? They'll be offering innovative solutions to the next problem they're tasked with as well, solutions that are created by some extremely brilliant O-4's and O-5's doing amazing staff work across this globe.

Ok, that last paragraph had nothing to do with ACP, but needed to be said (especially after Liquid's woodshedding in the Promotion/PRF thread).

Edited June 27, 2013 by General Chang

[sqwatch]

bunch of facts and a logical argument

Thanks for the inside perspective

4. Reiteration of several previous posts- pilots, you are not entitled to a bonus. Ever. In fact, I'm surprised the following didn't gain traction at the puzzle palace:

FY2013

- No bonus for initial eligibles over the 15 year point on 30 Sep 13

- No bonus for -11Ms

- Same $25K/5 for all other -11's

After the initial outrage and relative purge of this year's -11M class, the Air Force could have come back with the following:

FY2014

- No bonus for initial eligibles over the 16 year point on 30 Sep 14 (same as the rule just released)

- Reinstate $25K/5 for -11Ms; maintain this for everyone except -11Fs

- 11Fs $25K/7

Interesting idea, but a year or two too late. The 11F shortage is too close. Agreed the bonus isn't owed to anyone - not sure the people with a decision to make this year feel the same way. Since retention goals are higher this year than last year, the 25k for 5 yrs has already demonstrated to be ineffective in achieving this year’s goals for 11F.

Was there any discussion about separate promotion boards for rated? Money is only one incentive - have there been alternative incentives discussed (promotion/different assignment requirements)?

[General Chang]

Sqwatch,

Great questions- all I can say is that you won't see separate promotion boards for rated. Other creative solutions? Possibly. Depends on how next year's numbers play out (this year's numbers may be skewed, as alluded to here, because of the late release). While this year's "take" numbers may be unreliable, I guarantee that you will see good numbers for the 2014 -11F take rate if the program remains $25K through 20, no matter when the bonus is enacted. Why? Because the program has been unveiled this year, and the class of 2002/2003 will not be so hasty to get out next year until the bonus is released, in hopes of cashing in on $200K-$225K. Let's be honest- that's a ton of money, even after taxes, for a known quantity- the lifestyle you've already been living. The "unknown" outside of the AF can be quite scary...heck, it is to me...and despite the amazing opportunities that abound in the civilian sector in our great country, we all know the grass isn't always greener and the economy isn't going anywhere in the near-term (it will just keep plodding along at 2-2.5% for a while). Result- expect a high -11F FY2014 pilot bonus take rate.

Keep in mind, before any creative solutions are enacted, especially if money is involved, they must be politically palatable on the Hill. After Gen Schwartz's Congressional issues with the budget last year, Gen Welsh is extremely interested in repairing political relationships. That's why this year's ACP stayed at $25K per year- the fighter issue is addressed by lengthening time, not rate of annual pay, thereby avoiding any concerns about the Air Force "raising the bonus for pilots." In reality, the bonus wasn't raised. The contracts were extended.

As a result, I think you won't see any outlandish incentive ideas be implemented in the near future.

Edited June 27, 2013 by General Chang

[sqwatch]

and despite the amazing opportunities that abound in the civilian sector in our great country, we all know the grass isn't always greener and the economy isn't going anywhere in the near-term

Sums up what a few guard buddies/contractors are experiencing right now.

Keep in mind, before any creative solutions are enacted, especially if money is involved, they must be politically palatable on the Hill. After Gen Schwartz's Congressional issues with the budget last year, Gen Welsh is extremely interested in repairing political relationships. That's why this year's ACP stayed at $25K per year- the fighter issue is addressed by lengthening time, not rate of annual pay, thereby avoiding any concerns about the Air Force "raising the bonus for pilots." In reality, the bonus wasn't raised. The contracts were extended.

This confirms a lot of speculation floating around out here.

Thanks again

[Rusty Pipes]

Rusty,

Second post first- yes, the last twelve years have sucked from a family perspective- do not think your senior leaders don't recognize that. They simply have no tools to show that appreciation other than language. When an O-9 uses improper language that does not reflect the appreciation and admiration that our senior leadership has for our troops, it is disappointing and discouraging, but it does not represent the opinions of AF senior leadership, from Gen Welsh on down. Unfortunately, the bonus is not the forum for appreciation to be shown. The bonus is all about the numbers and the money. Period, dot.

Not being a jackass here, but when 90% of the pilots are sitting in an assignment at a location where the senior ranking guy on Base is an O-6... I'm pretty sure they consider an O-9 who is in charge of them to be AF senior leadership. The very unfortunate part of this is that he apparently had some significant influence on the thought process of those down the line because I've had conversations with multiple people in command positions (Wing, Gp, Sq) who echoed his thoughts (luckily recently retired). I had a conversation with my OG/CC (great guy) 2 yrs ago about non-voling guys to RPAs and he said, "What are they going to do, quit? It’s not like Delta is hiring!" Guess what... Delta is hiring and so are the Reserves! Someone has the numbers at AFPC and the Pentagon... are you seeing an increase in the number of guys dropping papers when the Sq CC hands them the RPA RIP or tells them they got tagged for the 365? I can only speak of guys I know personally who jumped ship recently in that situation and from stories from Sq CC buddies. Is this being looked at from above or is it something they will react to with the FY14 Bonus (or dare I even mention the dreaded term Stop Loss)?

[General Chang]

Rusty,

What I can say is that 365s are going down, and yes, numbers will be looked at over the next couple of months and factored into the FY14 Bonus. I would be very surprised if things changed significantly, however, especially for -11Fs, since this unveiling happened so late and the Air Force's "rewards" will be reaped with take rates starting next year if they keep the 20 year plan in place for fighter guys, which they should.

Re: RPAs, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps the true "fall off" may be yet to hit, but there are many, many volunteers for RPA duty, especially from the C-17 community. I would go so far as to argue RPAs are starting to become a desired assignment for many people out there due to the documented reduction in TDY hours (again, especially compared to the C-17 community, who gets brutalized) and the ability to eat at least one meal with your family 270-300 days a year. For instance, take the Global Hawk squadron up at Grand Forks- you are seeing an incredible influx of volunteers to an area that is often considered "inhospitable" to families (I know, it's better than Minot), and that new squadron is absolutely thriving.

Edited June 27, 2013 by General Chang

[Lord Ratner]

Chang,

O-5, O-6, or GO?

Not trying to identify, just trying to get a better perspective on who is sitting on the top rope with Liquid crushing the BaseOps theory machine.

[Karl Hungus]

Heck, wait until you hear about the personnel cuts coming in FY2014.

Can you expand on this at all? Another fake VSP, where AFPC initially claims pilots are eligible, then panics when an overwhelming number apply... then approves the VSP for folks who were 6 months from getting out anyway? Another RIF of those same folks denied VSP?

See why a lot of us are skeptical?

[General Chang]

LR- Liquid is higher up than I am.

KH- Nothing to panic about yet. I probably shouldn't have written that sentence in quite that manner-- I wanted to emphasize the fact that we are a contracting service, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon The best we can hope for is status quo re: end strength, but don't be surprised if that number moves next year.

I do understand all of the skepticism, and the best I can offer is that A1 will learn from past mistakes. Will personnelists make different mistakes in the future? I have no doubt. But the VSP debacle that occurred a few years back should not happen again. And have no doubt, that was a gross disservice to a lot of good people.

[Rusty Pipes]

Re: RPAs, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps the true "fall off" may be yet to hit, but there are many, many volunteers for RPA duty, especially from the C-17 community. I would go so far as to argue RPAs are starting to become a desired assignment for many people out there due to the documented reduction in TDY hours (again, especially compared to the C-17 community, who gets brutalized) and the ability to eat at least one meal with your family 270-300 days a year.

Hmmm... that's a complete 180 from what I am seeing/have seen. Are these young guys volunteering for RPAs from the C-17? I was in Vegas a few months ago at a buddy's house who was a C-17 RPA guy... he was looking to sign the bonus, but my other 3 C-17 buds who were there had all already put in their paperwork to separate the first day they could. I had another 3 friends at CHS alone on this last assignment cycle who 7 day opted when the RPA assignment dropped (I know at least one for sure was to the Forks). They all just went next door to the Res. Maybe there were guys waiting in the wings to jump on it. Maybe some guys sitting at TCM or CHS right now can chime in on this one, but this is the first I have heard from anyone that there is a line forming to get the dream shot of an RPA to Cannon or the Forks (no offense to my RPA brothers and sisters out there).

[AnimalMother]

Sqwatch,

The "unknown" outside of the AF can be quite scary...heck, it is to me...and despite the amazing opportunities that abound in the civilian sector in our great country, we all know the grass isn't always greener and the economy isn't going anywhere in the near-term (it will just keep plodding along at 2-2.5% for a while). Result- expect a high -11F FY2014 pilot bonus take rate.

Is it any scarier then when we signed up for a life in the military? You just need to find the right motivation for making change in your life. If that motivation is there, then change is easy. But guys get old, become comfortable with the apparent security of this job, and submit themselves to continued exploitation; it is an unfortunate inevitability. Furthermore, I would argue that if folks are really concerned about getting a job on the outside, then they need to reevaluate how they grade themselves against the populace at large. The military is full of high performance dudes, and it's easy to feel mediocre, but I bet that almost anyone I work with would excel on the outside if they chose to do so. At the end of the day, I hope folks make their decision based on what actually makes them happiest and best suits their lifestyle, not because of how much money they stand to gain or loose. if money is what matters, then get out and become an investment banker or something similar, shit, you can even use you're GI bill to pay for the schooling.