Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Craftsman]

General Chang, Liquid-

Like many have said thanks for the insight. I am a young pup by the standard of things, but it is nice to see a perspective from the inner workings of the puzzle palace.

My major question is this, if there is such a 11F shortage as some have said for the experience level, then why is the Big blue still not allowing the 3 class years (FY09-11) of bros that got preds out of UPT still not be allowed to go to fill those cockpits?

Now before the spears are thrown, and the comments of “well those dudes sucked,” begin just hear me out. Timing was huge factor during our time, the whole fact of 3-4 38’s a class and 1 fighter didn’t help situations. A lot of this I believe had to do with Big Blue only TAMing CAF dudes to RPA and couldn’t fill the 38’s at UPT or the FTU”s.

One of the biggest things we hear is the whole you had your chance in UPT is BS IMHO, that same thought process should go to FAIPs as well then.

Argument that FAIPs have been flying is only one part, yes they have been doing the TP Stalls and making studs sick, but they lack the tactical knowledge that many RPA bubbas have learned. That is a huge factor in all fighter SQ’s stay in the vault and study. Well we sit in a box for 8+hrs at time with unlimited amounts of 3-1’s at our disposal to learn. That knowledge is what is needed am I wrong? I have always been told by IP’s I can teach you to fly, but you have to have the knowledge. So while the FAIPs go on they having to learn that knowledge, because they have at least been in the Air. Why can in not be that RPA bubbas be given the chance to become 11F’s? They are sending us through the 38 spin up class now for the ones that have made it out into manned AC, extend the IFF a couple flights longer for the RPA dude, they have the knowledge and want to succeed, let the IP’s work with us I guarantee that they will probably be some of the best studs the IP’s have seen. Yes some will not make it but hell there isn’t very many of us to give that chance too (a lot of T-1 bros).

Most of us still have 7 years left on our ADSC Big Blue doenn’t even need to spend money to keep us right now (with respect to service not training). Hell let us even just take the red air 38’s at Tyndall if they want us to have more experience.

I know it is not going to happen just want to see a true senior leaders opinion on it.

Rant off.

As to the squadrons making IP’s out of dudes that ‘need it” for their PRF’s I see it all the time in my squadron. Dudes that are not IP material and have only been an 18x for a short tim (late rate) same goes to dudes from that came from manned too get IP because they need it for their Promotion but have no idea what a 3-1 is.

Edit: It’s my Friday and maybe to many drinks to effectively use the English language on the interwebs. As well this will add good entertainment for the dudes that love to rag on us.

[Azimuth]

I've seen people go to IP school (MAF), while in their current MDS, with orders already to go to RPA's. Reason: It's good for their PRF.

[matmacwc]

General Chang, Liquid-

Like many have said thanks for the insight. I am a young pup by the standard of things, but it is nice to see a perspective from the inner workings of the puzzle palace.

My major question is this, if there is such a 11F shortage as some have said for the experience level, then why is the Big blue still not allowing the 3 class years (FY09-11) of bros that got preds out of UPT still not be allowed to go to fill those cockpits?

Now before the spears are thrown, and the comments of “well those dudes sucked,” begin just hear me out. Timing was huge factor during our time, the whole fact of 3-4 38’s a class and 1 fighter didn’t help situations. A lot of this I believe had to do with Big Blue only TAMing CAF dudes to RPA and couldn’t fill the 38’s at UPT or the FTU”s.

One of the biggest things we hear is the whole you had your chance in UPT is BS IMHO, that same thought process should go to FAIPs as well then.

Argument that FAIPs have been flying is only one part, yes they have been doing the TP Stalls and making studs sick, but they lack the tactical knowledge that many RPA bubbas have learned. That is a huge factor in all fighter SQ’s stay in the vault and study. Well we sit in a box for 8+hrs at time with unlimited amounts of 3-1’s at our disposal to learn. That knowledge is what is needed am I wrong? I have always been told by IP’s I can teach you to fly, but you have to have the knowledge. So while the FAIPs go on they having to learn that knowledge, because they have at least been in the Air. Why can in not be that RPA bubbas be given the chance to become 11F’s? They are sending us through the 38 spin up class now for the ones that have made it out into manned AC, extend the IFF a couple flights longer for the RPA dude, they have the knowledge and want to succeed, let the IP’s work with us I guarantee that they will probably be some of the best studs the IP’s have seen. Yes some will not make it but hell there isn’t very many of us to give that chance too (a lot of T-1 bros).

Most of us still have 7 years left on our ADSC Big Blue doenn’t even need to spend money to keep us right now (with respect to service not training). Hell let us even just take the red air 38’s at Tyndall if they want us to have more experience.

I know it is not going to happen just want to see a true senior leaders opinion on it.

Rant off.

As to the squadrons making IP’s out of dudes that ‘need it” for their PRF’s I see it all the time in my squadron. Dudes that are not IP material and have only been an 18x for a short tim (late rate) same goes to dudes from that came from manned too get IP because they need it for their Promotion but have no idea what a 3-1 is.

Edit: It’s my Friday and maybe to many drinks to effectively use the English language on the interwebs. As well this will add good entertainment for the dudes that love to rag on us.

Because the fighter community doesn't need (or want, just in my opinion) a bunch of senior capt or maj selects showing up as wingman to their squadrons with no experience, and preds isn't experience in a fighter.

Edited June 28, 2013 by matmacwc

[C-21.Pilot]

Because the fighter community doesn't need (or want, just in my opinion) a bunch of senior capt or maj selects showing up as wingman to their squadrons with no experience, and preds isn't experience in a fighter.

Agreed. Which is all the better case to allow NCO type guys a AFSC consistent with preds. All the other branches have toyed with it and some are actually employing E's to fly their UAV's.

[Duck]

Craftsman, I feel the frustration. I too worked my butt off and made it to ENJJPT, just to see a class of 20 students get 2 fighters. Pretty demoralizing. Then I got to hear how overmanned 11Ms were and how undermanned 11Fs were. When I offered to get out and fly fighters with the Guard, as a recent graduate, I was told not to even try as it would tag me as a non-team player and get me a one way ticket to Cannon. So I bloomed where I was planted and made the most of it, being thankful to be flying but always realizing in the back of my mind how bad the Air Force handled this thing. I also got a bad taste in my mouth(sts) from senior leaders who really didnt seem to care as they seemed to be too busy taking care of themselves.

A lot of the pain would have been easier to take with just some more transparency from the higher ups. Thanks General Chang for actually explaining some of the perceived madness!

[SurelySerious]

Because the fighter community doesn't need (or want, just in my opinion) a bunch of senior capt or maj selects showing up as wingman to their squadrons with no experience, and preds isn't experience in a fighter.

So FAIPs no longer go to fighters then, right?

[Azimuth]

Agreed. Which is all the better case to allow NCO type guys a AFSC consistent with preds. All the other branches have toyed with it and some are actually employing E's to fly their UAV's.

The USAF will never let E's employ big weapons.

[backseatdriver]

The USAF will never let E's employ big weapons.

I guess 105mm doesn't count?

[TarHeelPilot]

So FAIPs no longer go to fighters then, right?

A Major FAIP? LMAO

Most FAIPs finish at most around a 2 year Capt, right?

[SurelySerious]

A Major FAIP? LMAO

Most FAIPs finish at most around a 2 year Capt, right?

Same with upt direct to uav. That wasn't what I was getting at.

[TarHeelPilot]

Same with upt direct to uav. That wasn't what I was getting at.

Well then, please elaborate.

[SurelySerious]

Well then, please elaborate.

matmacwc said the fighter community has no desire for people who had an assignment for 3-4 years and then go to B course subsequently showing up in a fighter sq with no experience, applying it to the logic not to send dudes who went from upt to uavs to fighters. I'm pointing out FAIPs are in the same bo-at. Mid-term captains as brand new wingmen with no experience.

Edit: not trying to start the debate TarHeel is; not the correct thread. My point is simply if the AF isnt sending upt direct uav because fighters don't need/want inexperienced wingmen mid-captains, then that's kind of dumb when it's supplying them with FAIPs still. But this thread isn't about that either. Trying to avoid derailment; uav follow ons and pred operator bashing thread already exists.

Edited June 28, 2013 by SurelySerious

[pcola]

The glut is O-6s staying to 30, O-5s staying to 24, and O-4s staying to 20. It is why the pin on rate for 03 has been stuck at 113/mo.

Copy. So we're talking apples to oranges then. AFPC's "glut" (and their numbers overages) are not the 11Ms we need. Most high time O5 and O6s aren't flying the line and mentoring dudes, and I know very few passed over 18-20 year Majors that are doing it.

What we perceive as a shortfall in the Sq is the new-Major MWS-experienced types that are walking out the door in droves. Killing the bonus would get rid of what we need, not the 18+ year O4-6 types that are actually causing the overage. Bravo!

Edited June 28, 2013 by pcola

[TarHeelPilot]

matmacwc said the fighter community has no desire for people who had an assignment for 3-4 years and then go to B course subsequently showing up in a fighter sq with no experience, applying it to the logic not to send dudes who went from upt to uavs to fighters. I'm pointing out FAIPs are in the same bo-at. Mid-term captains as brand new wingmen with no experience.

So matmacwc and 11Fs, which would you rather have on your wing, a FAIP or a First Assignment Drone Operator?

[Nineline]

The glut is O-6s staying to 30, O-5s staying to 24, and O-4s staying to 20. It is why the pin on rate for 03 has been stuck at 113/mo.

If that truly is the root of the problem, then why are so many Majors offered continuation?

-9-

[BitteEinBit]

If that truly is the root of the problem, then why are so many Majors offered continuation?

-9-

...funny.

I'm no personnelist, nor do I have A1 experience, but based solely on numbers in year groups from 90-99 which happen to have some of the smallest year groups (95-98) over the past few decades because of the 90s drawdown, I'm thinking this glut will be around for a long time. If you're telling me these small year groups are causing the glut and you want to replace them with even larger year groups coming up the ranks, I'm not sure how the math will work.

The non-continuation fiasco that apparently tried to help 'fix' the glut just happened to be in the 2 smallest accession year groups in the 90s (96-97) with the jury still out on the 98 year group (mine). The only real solution to fixing the glut is lower promotion rates and 'creative force management' tools to limit continuation. While many of us don't think that is fair, it is reality. We cannot promote everyone, and at the same time we can't keep everyone we don't promote without having to deal with some kind of glut. So, while my year group had about 2400 accessions and we are part of the glut, I can't imagine what the glut from still strong 2003-2005 year groups who are still large even after the RIFs late last decade. The year groups are larger, yet the 'promotion opportunities' are the same, meaning even more glut is added every year. I can't see how that is an 'unplanned glut' in the system...but again, I'm not a personnelist. That is why I give warning to the bubbas who sign up for 9 more years of obligation to the Air Force so they realize that there are no guarantees especially in this fiscal environment and the shadow of 'the glut.'

One more unrelated point. From the outside, it looks like the Air Force is just managing numbers to make them look good without regard to real quality and experience or even development. I say experience because that glut you say we don't need to stay is actually your 'experience.' i would imagine you want your experience to stay. Exactly who are we replacing them with?? Larger, younger year groups we rushed through the system with minimal time and experience. Are we really trying to build a quality, experienced force or just pump people through the system until they can retire and then get rid of them? I know the machine will keep turning, I just question the methods and priorities we use to replace that experience. But that is a whole other thread.....

[AnimalMother]

General Chang, have you read or are you familiar with the book Bleeding Talent, by Tim Kane? Thoughts?

[RASH]

Me too...ended it when I was given the chance.

Tried to end it as a Chief Pilot, and was told to shut up and color . You are (were?) in a much better position to do something...

[Rusty Pipes]

So matmacwc and 11Fs, which would you rather have on your wing, a FAIP or a First Assignment Drone Operator?

You're joking, right? 11F/11M/11X... there is simply no way you can compare the skill set of a FAIP to that of a first assignment RPA type (and before you ask... no, I was not a FAIP). Flying a T-37, T-6, T-1 or T-38 with kids who are trying to kill them on a daily basis and actually turning them from nothing into an actual pilot may not give them the 3-1 knowledge, but I can lock them in a vault for a month to give them that. I can't fly an RPA guy for a month straight and give them 3-4 yrs of hands on flying experience.

I think if you rephrase your question then the answer is obvious to any MWS IP... "Would you rather fly with a new guy who flew a T-38 or T-1 for about 6 months four years ago and can quote tactics pretty well or a guy who spent the past 4 yrs flying a T-38 or T-1 who has over 1,000 IP hours and you can teach tactics?" Sorry for the minor thread derail, but first assignment RPA guys to 11XYZ does not solve the problem of losing experience in the CAF/MAF world... and neither does a 5 to 9 yr bonus.

[Beaver]

So matmacwc and 11Fs, which would you rather have on your wing, a FAIP or a First Assignment Drone Operator?

38 FAIP by a mile.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[matmacwc]

38 FAIP by a mile.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

Yes

But still not my point.

[TheInner]

Instead of letting this thread derail to a former FAIP or former RPA dude debate, the answer to why a UPT class had 2 fighters is that the 11F shortage had only a little bit to do with putting guys into actual fighter squadrons. The shortage is being seen in the staffs like a few people have alluded to. Big Blue attempted to preserve some semblance of experience in the actual cockpits by filling 11F staff billets with 11Ms which on paper results in the 11F shortage. Another contributing factor is the pipeline, most of the bottleneck occurs at the IFF level with the RTU being next in line. Bottomline is that although a class of 20 getting 2 fighters might suck, attempting to send 10 more of those dudes into fighters wouldn't have done much for the cause and wouldn't have been sustainable by the pipeline either. As an 11F (initial eligible for the bonus, undecided at the moment) I can say that a couple more guys in the squadron probably wouldn't be a bad thing but the line squadrons aren't where Big Blue feels the shortage, it is in all the staff/365s/remotes where COCOMs and other GOs feel the need for a fighter guy. Had we made all the UPT studs happy by sending them to fighters and shipping anyone with experience out to those billets, we would have been filling a 12 turn 10 with single ship instrument lines due to a lack of any sort of quals since a squadron would have at best 3 IPs, the CC, DO, and the patch.

[11F]

So FAIPs no longer go to fighters then, right?

No, but FAIPs-turned-11F are behind the 8-ball both in terms of career and FLUG, MCUG, IPUG, SEFE, & WIC. Don't get me wrong I've seen one make it happen and catch up - ONE.

[di1630]

All of your arguments all can be summed up into on concise sentence "USAF aircrew (mis)management is a shitshow". Funny stuff to read though and a great break from my endless qweep.

[pawnman]

Instead of letting this thread derail to a former FAIP or former RPA dude debate, the answer to why a UPT class had 2 fighters is that the 11F shortage had only a little bit to do with putting guys into actual fighter squadrons. The shortage is being seen in the staffs like a few people have alluded to. Big Blue attempted to preserve some semblance of experience in the actual cockpits by filling 11F staff billets with 11Ms which on paper results in the 11F shortage. Another contributing factor is the pipeline, most of the bottleneck occurs at the IFF level with the RTU being next in line. Bottomline is that although a class of 20 getting 2 fighters might suck, attempting to send 10 more of those dudes into fighters wouldn't have done much for the cause and wouldn't have been sustainable by the pipeline either. As an 11F (initial eligible for the bonus, undecided at the moment) I can say that a couple more guys in the squadron probably wouldn't be a bad thing but the line squadrons aren't where Big Blue feels the shortage, it is in all the staff/365s/remotes where COCOMs and other GOs feel the need for a fighter guy. Had we made all the UPT studs happy by sending them to fighters and shipping anyone with experience out to those billets, we would have been filling a 12 turn 10 with single ship instrument lines due to a lack of any sort of quals since a squadron would have at best 3 IPs, the CC, DO, and the patch.

The only way to solve the staff problem is to get more guys into the squadrons, so that you have more people to send to staff.