Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Smokin]

Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here.

If offending people for offering dissenting opinions and explanations with rational reasoning is cause for not posting anymore, 95% of us wouldn't be here anymore. If we lose that capability to give and receive honest feedback, we start debriefing like bottom tier air forces and lots of us will die when we get into a real war. The guys flying the line need the insight and the logic behind decisions that higher ups like you offer just as much as the higher ups need honest feedback from the line pilots. Even if we disagree with it, it is far better to have a clue as to why things are happening.

For those of you who feel you are overworked for the money you are paid, I'll throw out an additional suggestion besides RPAs, AETC, and getting out. Many people are intimidated for some reason by volunteering to work staff at the Pentagon. You should consider it. You don't have to worry about flying currencies, the hours for most FGO jobs are 8ish to 4:30 with 1-1.5 hour lunches, you don't ever have to worry about work on the weekends, and there's tons of free museums, sports teams, family life is great...it's the Air Force's best kept secret. Think about it- it's a pretty sweet gig.

Is my sarcasm detector broken? This is 180 out from everything I've heard.

[jstarsshag]

Not to jump to far in and sling sh*t but Pentagon???! Did I miss something?? So you just raise your hand and *poof* the staff fairy comes down and bestows a "sweet" staff gig?! I'm positive that is not even close to aligning with AFPC's plans for my pilot ass.

I was told the WG needs IP's and experience... no staff for you... (I'm not complaining... just sayin') I'm positive I'm not unique in the pilot world... My observation is staff is usually saved up for the "pretty people" and generally not for the professional USAF pilot. If I'm way off base please tell me to F off and I'll happily go back to eating popcorn and watch this Sh*t show continue...

Edited July 2, 2013 by jstarsshag

[Skitzo]

Yup I'll go to the pentagon for a staff tour sign me up. Let me know how to route my ADP

[busdriver]

Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here.

GC, I get the impression you're a personnel type. If I'm right, you probably don't have the interaction experience with Ops types at the squadron level. We tend to argue, throw spears and generally say that everyone is fucked up but me. It's just the way it is, the constant fight over who is right demands we bring facts to the fight to prove ourselves. It's a good thing, but it makes us look like assholes to the outsider. The other part of this culture is that we can argue incessantly and damn near start a fist fight over it, then roll to the bar and share a beer.

[Recut]

The other part of this culture is that we can argue incessantly and damn near start a fist fight over it, then roll to the bar and share a beer.

And it is understood that we love our country, our job, tend to have type A personalities, and are used to being in control of things. That's why I get so pissed when people stereotype pilots when the actual discussion is about $ and a program designed to give pilots $. I won't qualify for the bonus as a prior E so I am not personally heated by the bonus. I am heated when people stereotype pilots, thinking we just care about #1 and $

[Azimuth]

2. Even with staff overages, the Wings are still fully manned (and then some) with -11Ms. There's not enough room for them all; if you look at the UMDs and especially the TDY charts, there is clearly a large overage. And I'm talking trends for the UMDs and TDYs, not just one year. Heck, C-17 pilots, I bet your SF brothers would love your TDY rates! These are the types of numbers your senior leaders are looking at to make manning & bonus decisions.

Then why is there a 11M shortage in the -135 FTU? It's getting better, but only because the last Sq/CC asked and pleaded with AFPC for more 11M's.

[Azimuth]

I'd imagine it would have something to do with the location.

You'd be amazed. When having RPA's thrown around for possible assignments, Altus seems pretty appealing.

[C-21.Pilot]

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.....

[Rusty Pipes]

Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here. For those of you who feel you are overworked for the money you are paid, I'll throw out an additional suggestion besides RPAs, AETC, and getting out. Many people are intimidated for some reason by volunteering to work staff at the Pentagon. You should consider it. You don't have to worry about flying currencies, the hours for most FGO jobs are 8ish to 4:30 with 1-1.5 hour lunches, you don't ever have to worry about work on the weekends, and there's tons of free museums, sports teams, family life is great...it's the Air Force's best kept secret. Think about it- it's a pretty sweet gig.

Oh, Airman Chang... so sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm guessing you aren't used to people challenging you on anything and I'm guessing you aren't used to being talked to like that. Like Recut said earlier, pretty pathetic that some on here felt the need to kiss your ass because of who some anonymous avatar claims they are... that just isn't me; on here or in person. I don't care if you are an E-3 or an O-7... if your idea is stupid I'll tell you it is stupid; needless to say I will never be a General, but everyone from the young Airman to the Wing King knows that if they ask me what I think about something they will get a straight answer. You had some good points and some informative info from an A1/numbers perspective, but when the Power Point slides are done and the pie charts tell the boss what you want him to hear there is always one thing left out of the equation... the real story from the guys who are actually living it day in and day out. If you discount what those at the Squadron level are saying or even worse, don't even ask... you will get it wrong 100% of the time. You might not like what they have to say or the tone they use to tell you, but the bottom line is that they are your target audience in many cases. This is one of those cases.

I will leave you with this Chang... People can talk all day long on here about the impending hiring boom from Major airlines in the next 2-3 years and the theory about a mass pilot exodus because of it. 2 yrs ago when the VSP opportunity came out there was talk about the airline thing, but it was at best 4-5 years away. Look at the amount of pilots who were still lined up asking to get out! As an A1 type or as a GO looking at those numbers it should have set off all sorts of bells and whistles about the state of mind of our rated force... Just throwing money at them and telling them they are lucky to be here might not be the best way to go. Just Rusty Pipes' 2 cents...

Edited July 2, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[Recut]

Tanker,

Good, reasoned thought. Only a couple of probs:

1. The AF doesn't have the option to guess when a hiring boom might take place wrt spending taxpayer $ on the bonus.

2. Even with staff overages, the Wings are still fully manned (and then some) with -11Ms. There's not enough room for them all; if you look at the UMDs and especially the TDY charts, there is clearly a large overage. And I'm talking trends for the UMDs and TDYs, not just one year. Heck, C-17 pilots, I bet your SF brothers would love your TDY rates! These are the types of numbers your senior leaders are looking at to make manning & bonus decisions.

Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here. For those of you who feel you are overworked for the money you are paid, I'll throw out an additional suggestion besides RPAs, AETC, and getting out. Many people are intimidated for some reason by volunteering to work staff at the Pentagon. You should consider it. You don't have to worry about flying currencies, the hours for most FGO jobs are 8ish to 4:30 with 1-1.5 hour lunches, you don't ever have to worry about work on the weekends, and there's tons of free museums, sports teams, family life is great...it's the Air Force's best kept secret. Think about it- it's a pretty sweet gig.

Flyers, enjoy those crazy awesome bonuses, keep up the good work. I'm grateful for the awesome opportunities the Air Force has and continues to provide me, and I believe there are more people that not in the Air Force that are grateful for what they've been (and are continued to be) given by Big Blue.

Keep the faith!

Mr. Sarcastic, as you're driving to work and enjoying the things from your post that I highlighted w/bold text, I can only hope that you might look at your numbers and charts and think about what you've heard here, maybe even put a "face" to those numbers. We are actually people trying to have a normal life while fighting the wars (just war now). Oh, and BTW we want to do this because we believe in service before self....yep, just did it, mentioned a core value and I'm an 11M. If that's what we are to you (numbers on charts) then I hope you at least think about the dude that can't enjoy your QOL while you're at the free museum after your easy week with long lunches. Peace.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Recut

[ThreeHoler]

Yup I'll go to the pentagon for a staff tour sign me up. Let me know how to route my ADP

Same.

[pawnman]

Tanker,

Good, reasoned thought. Only a couple of probs:

1. The AF doesn't have the option to guess when a hiring boom might take place wrt spending taxpayer $ on the bonus.

2. Even with staff overages, the Wings are still fully manned (and then some) with -11Ms. There's not enough room for them all; if you look at the UMDs and especially the TDY charts, there is clearly a large overage. And I'm talking trends for the UMDs and TDYs, not just one year. Heck, C-17 pilots, I bet your SF brothers would love your TDY rates! These are the types of numbers your senior leaders are looking at to make manning & bonus decisions.

Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here. For those of you who feel you are overworked for the money you are paid, I'll throw out an additional suggestion besides RPAs, AETC, and getting out. Many people are intimidated for some reason by volunteering to work staff at the Pentagon. You should consider it. You don't have to worry about flying currencies, the hours for most FGO jobs are 8ish to 4:30 with 1-1.5 hour lunches, you don't ever have to worry about work on the weekends, and there's tons of free museums, sports teams, family life is great...it's the Air Force's best kept secret. Think about it- it's a pretty sweet gig.

Flyers, enjoy those crazy awesome bonuses, keep up the good work. I'm grateful for the awesome opportunities the Air Force has and continues to provide me, and I believe there are more people that not in the Air Force that are grateful for what they've been (and are continued to be) given by Big Blue.

Keep the faith!

Would love to do a staff tour, but first I have to get a school select slot, which means I need to be in the top 20% of the CAF. Being honest with myself (and all of you), I'm pretty sure I'm not top 20% next to the WIC, exec, and #1 of xx ALO guys in my community.

The staff job sounds good, but we need to get the squadrons to release us first...from what I've seen, staff tours, especially at the Pentagon level, are reserved for people who will be future commanders. Then comes HAF for commander potentials, then maybe NAF if there are slots left over.

[pcola]

I think you're on to something here. The problem is we're only a couple of years past the ten-year ADSC bonus classes; we don't have enough data points to plot trends. I suspect this may be as good an answer as any, IF there is no mass exodus of younger guys at the ADSC, which is what I have been stating. However, if I am wrong and many of you are right, moving to the 8-year ADSC could be the death blow to multiple class years of pilots, which is not good.

Probably the best way to proceed on this line of thinking is to take ONE class year and alter their ADSCs to 8 years (say, those whose ADSC's are up in FY16; make them FY14, so we have two classes simultaneously coming due). Then, track the take rates for the two classes seperately, and analyze the trends. If too many "former FY16" guys jump ship in FY14, the Air Force knows it has a serious situation on its hands, and it has only sacrificed one class year. Hmmmm.....interesting.....

Please do this! I'm in the "ADSC expiring in 2016" group and would love to be one of your data points. I can tell you right now, that even with 4 years prior-E time, if given the opportunity to bail in 2014 I'd gladly become a member of the reserve unit across the street. In fact, that is my plan for 2016, even though I'll have 16 years of service.

[Fuzz]

If too many "former FY16" guys jump ship in FY14, the Air Force knows it has a serious situation on its hands, and it has only sacrificed one class year. Hmmmm.....interesting..... Will shit its pants, revoke its deal, not allow guys to separate and fuck over their careers because the highlighted themselves and subsequently RIF them in the FY14 force shaping you already talked about.

FIFY

[Snooter]

FIFY

Lol, have you not read anything General Chan has been saying? They should be thrilled that they get to wear a flight suit and serve... Okay back to work on spreadsheets for my ground deployment...

[Dupe]

Please do this! I'm in the "ADSC expiring in 2016" group and would love to be one of your data points. I can tell you right now, that even with 4 years prior-E time, if given the opportunity to bail in 2014 I'd gladly become a member of the reserve unit across the street. In fact, that is my plan for 2016, even though I'll have 16 years of service.

Thanks for your service. Double thanks for being about the best possible value you could be to the US as an aviator. We'll now get 15-25 more years of aviation service out of you before you become a member of the check-of-the-month club. You get the quality of life you want and the stability of not PCSing while still serving your country. Everybody wins. I'm not sure why there aren't more reserve units close to active ones.

Chang...I think there's a serious cost-savings in expanding the reserves and convincing guys to join the reserve at the 12-16 year point.

[Skitzo]

Lets just get rid of active duty period.

[Guest]

I've been on car message boards where GC would have been banned for less. Just saying.

[backseatdriver]

I've been on car message boards where GC would have been banned for less. Just saying.

They talk about bonuses and retention rates on car message boards? That's weird.

[Dupe]

Lets just get rid of active duty period.

Who then will deploy to be the joint exec?

[pcola]

Thanks for your service. Double thanks for being about the best possible value you could be to the US as an aviator. We'll now get 15-25 more years of aviation service out of you before you become a member of the check-of-the-month club. You get the quality of life you want and the stability of not PCSing while still serving your country. Everybody wins. I'm not sure why there aren't more reserve units close to active ones.

If I go reserve with 16 years TAFMS, do you really think it will take 15-25 more years reserve time to accrue 4 more years of TAFMS? Honest question, because I'm trying to gather some data myself regarding this point. I'm currently working on the assumption that, as a MAF flyer, it will take me 8-10 years of AFRC flying/deployments to accrue the remaining 4 years of AD time I would need to start pulling an AD retirement. That's assuming no possibility of sanctuary, and no AD recall.

[hindsight2020]

If I go reserve with 16 years TAFMS, do you really think it will take 15-25 more years reserve time to accrue 4 more years of TAFMS? Honest question, because I'm trying to gather some data myself regarding this point. I'm currently working on the assumption that, as a MAF flyer, it will take me 8-10 years of AFRC flying/deployments to accrue the remaining 4 years of AD time I would need to start pulling an AD retirement. That's assuming no possibility of sanctuary, and no AD recall.

You physically can't. You'll time out rank wise and be forced to retire, at which point you'll only be able to apply for a Reserve retirement at age 60 (minus whatever 90 day stint blocks you did as a reservist, which currently allows you to apply for retirement equal number of days earlier than age 60). Furthermore, the Reserves will be very careful in not freely allowing you to accrue orders to put you in sanctuary before you reach said timeout date. Some might require you to sign a statement waiving sanctuary.

All that said, it is possible to eek out an AD retirement out of the Reserve component. It's not clean nor generally easy, but it is possible. Worst case scenario, you have a lot better QOL as a senior guy and fly your ass off to your hearts content. It is also a very nice furlough supplemental insurance flight time wise and money wise. I came back today from doing CT with a fellow TR and we were really telling ourselves, fuck this is fun when AD is not involved. It was an honestly enjoyable flight, it was great to feel that way doing this job from time to time. AD makes it impossible to feel this way with any frequency. I love the Reserves, AD Lite notwithstanding.

[Danny Noonin]

If I go reserve with 16 years TAFMS, do you really think it will take 15-25 more years reserve time to accrue 4 more years of TAFMS? Honest question, because I'm trying to gather some data myself regarding this point. I'm currently working on the assumption that, as a MAF flyer, it will take me 8-10 years of AFRC flying/deployments to accrue the remaining 4 years of AD time I would need to start pulling an AD retirement. That's assuming no possibility of sanctuary, and no AD recall.

Dudes DO NOT think that you can get out of active duty to be a part timer and still get an active duty retirement. I know it is theoretically possible and I know it has happened in the past. But I'm telling you that it is a serious long shot any more. There are actually checks in the system to try and prevent that from happening now.

[SocialD]

Shitty internet, fucked up my edit.

Are you talking Reserves or ANG? It seems like there are quite a few guys doing this. Helps that some of them are at squadrons with an alert mission. Some dudes volunteered at the Guard Bureau to make this happen. I'm fairly certain i'll never get a 20 yr AD retirement...just wondering.

[Danny Noonin]

Are you talking about the Reserves or ANG? What are the checks? It seems like there are quite a few guys doing this right now. It helps that their squadron has an alert mission. One or two volunteered for tours at the Guard Bureau (while still flying) to make it happen. I'm fairly certain I'll never get a full AD retirement anyway...just wondering what you mean.

EDIT: I agree that I wouldn't get out expecting it to be a done deal, some have just had great timing.

Tours at the guard bureau and alert are different animals I think. Can't speak to that. I'm talking about being on active duty paid for man days (MPA) which is where the majority of ARC guys build up active duty time. To get put on MPA there is a CMAS approval process done by the active duty and one of the things they look at is sanctuary (being above 18 years of active duty credit). They won't approve for anyone inside sanctuary for the most part unless you sign a sanctuary waiver...and I've seen them not even offer that waiver. They don't want you to get an active duty retirement! I say again, they don't want you to get an active duty retirement. It neutralizes one of the advantages of having an ARC (cost). And it's active duty's money

Look at it this way: a retirement is an enormous bill. What is the world going to look like in 8-10 years? Will the MAF be so busy that the ARC is activated all the time? More specifically, will they be so busy that they need to activate the specific ARC dudes who are really close to costing a fortune or can they get by with just the other ARC guys?

Can it happen? Yes. In theory. But as the budget slims down I would bet serious money against it. Obviously there are exceptions.

I'm saying all this because I hear idiots (I'm talking about you RTB) talking about getting out at 16-18 years all the time acting as though they'll still get an active retirement as a part timer no problem, but it will just take a few extra years. After all, they've heard about is from their cousin's uncle's brother's friend who saw ferris bueller pass out at a 31 flavors last night. What few right now seem to understand is that the calculus has fundamentally and drastically changed in only the last two years on this as OCO money dried up and budget frugality became real. Retirements are expensive.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Danny Noonin