Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Danny Noonin]

...less people, less aircraft sharing the same #of hours...

Except when they cut the iron, the cut the hours because that's where the actual savings are.

[C-21.Pilot]

Well, I've got something for both Fanning and Welsh to suck on. Just wait for the airline unions to finish negotiating pay contracts...such as this:

https://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/01/USAPA-Flight-Plan-to-a-Merger-MOU-explainer-January-2013.pdf

USAPA isn't the only one....DAL, UAL, AA...all are expected to move quickly. The airline hiring "boom" is starting to flickr more than the AF has anticipated -- especially with proposed pay increases, newer airframes and quicker upgrades/faster seniority looming.

This has nothing to do with service before self. It has everything to do with QOL. Oh the irony....where is General Chang?

If you're not smart enough to read between the lines, good on you. I think the bonus is an excellent gift to those pilots who deservingly get school slot and are going to stay in anyway or to those who maybe don't have a good financial plan.

Edited November 15, 2013 by C-21.Pilot

[Flare]

Cue Butters in 5....4....3....2....1........

[Catbox]

Our warfighters are getting out because they are " bored because of sequestration"?

They really think that?

It's NEVER going to get better folks, never.

[Rusty Pipes]

Well, I've got something for both Fanning and Welsh to suck on. Just wait for the airline unions to finish negotiating pay contracts...such as this:

https://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/01/USAPA-Flight-Plan-to-a-Merger-MOU-explainer-January-2013.pdf

USAPA isn't the only one....DAL, UAL, AA...all are expected to move quickly. The airline hiring "boom" is starting to flickr more than the AF has anticipated -- especially with proposed pay increases, newer airframes and quicker upgrades/faster seniority looming.

This has nothing to do with service before self. It has everything to do with QOL. Oh the irony....where is General Chang?

If you're not smart enough to read between the lines, good on you. I think the bonus is an excellent gift to those pilots who deservingly get school slot and are going to stay in anyway or to those who maybe don't have a good financial plan.

I had several buddies just get the call from Southwest yesterday and today and several more who got the call from United in the past 2 weeks. None of them were bored due to sequestration. I think The SecAF and CSAF need to not only worry about the guys thinking about leaving, they also to need to worry about the guys who just left the AF! I have at least a dozen good buddies who were hired by Majors in the past year who definitely still have the ears of those mid-level Capts with 3-4 yrs left on their ADSC who were their co-pilots. They are screaming a very loud, "Get the hell off Active Duty ASAP and come fly for (insert Airline here)!" People can say that the grass is always greener, but I can promise you one thing... the grass is definitely greener than sand.

[ThreeHoler]

I think the bonus is an excellent gift to those pilots who deservingly get school slot and are going to stay in anyway or to those who maybe don't have a good financial plan.

 

Nice false dichotomy, bro. There are many of us who're still happy making the mission happen...have great financial plans...and are not school selects.

[BFM this]

RAP is 8 sorties a month for a reason.

[ACC]: "RAP is now 7 sorties a month with two added Sims. There, Boss, slide is green again. We fixed the glitch."

Edited November 15, 2013 by BFM this

[BONE WSO]

Wait, your RAP is really 8 sorties per month? Ours is 2.

[noumenon]

Sqwatch,

Great questions- all I can say is that you won't see separate promotion boards for rated. Other creative solutions? Possibly. Depends on how next year's numbers play out (this year's numbers may be skewed, as alluded to here, because of the late release). While this year's "take" numbers may be unreliable, I guarantee that you will see good numbers for the 2014 -11F take rate if the program remains $25K through 20, no matter when the bonus is enacted. Why? Because the program has been unveiled this year, and the class of 2002/2003 will not be so hasty to get out next year until the bonus is released, in hopes of cashing in on $200K-$225K. Let's be honest- that's a ton of money, even after taxes, for a known quantity- the lifestyle you've already been living. The "unknown" outside of the AF can be quite scary...heck, it is to me...and despite the amazing opportunities that abound in the civilian sector in our great country, we all know the grass isn't always greener and the economy isn't going anywhere in the near-term (it will just keep plodding along at 2-2.5% for a while). Result- expect a high -11F FY2014 pilot bonus take rate.

Keep in mind, before any creative solutions are enacted, especially if money is involved, they must be politically palatable on the Hill. After Gen Schwartz's Congressional issues with the budget last year, Gen Welsh is extremely interested in repairing political relationships. That's why this year's ACP stayed at $25K per year- the fighter issue is addressed by lengthening time, not rate of annual pay, thereby avoiding any concerns about the Air Force "raising the bonus for pilots." In reality, the bonus wasn't raised. The contracts were extended.

As a result, I think you won't see any outlandish incentive ideas be implemented in the near future.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20131114/BENEFITS02/311140038/Pilots-pass-up-225-000-bonuses

Rut Roh...

[Azimuth]

I had several buddies just get the call from Southwest yesterday and today and several more who got the call from United in the past 2 weeks. None of them were bored due to sequestration. I think The SecAF and CSAF need to not only worry about the guys thinking about leaving, they also to need to worry about the guys who just left the AF! I have at least a dozen good buddies who were hired by Majors in the past year who definitely still have the ears of those mid-level Capts with 3-4 yrs left on their ADSC who were their co-pilots. They are screaming a very loud, "Get the hell off Active Duty ASAP and come fly for (insert Airline here)!" People can say that the grass is always greener, but I can promise you one thing... the grass is definitely greener than sand.

Three guys I know at my base got calls from Southwest yesterday.

[nsplayr]

My old DO is working for SW and loving life. Did his training while on terminal leave late last year. Great dude BTW, deserves every minute of it.

Edited November 16, 2013 by nsplayr

[Liquid]

My pilot training commitment was up in 1998. I aligned my tuition assistance and PCS commitments with my pilot training one so I had options. Airline opportunities were good from 1996-2001. Plenty of good dudes got out and plenty stayed in. There was a lot discussion about quality of life, pay, AF bullshit, bad leadership, retirement benefits, etc. The biggest factor impacting pilot retention is airline hiring demand, period. The airline job and lifestyle are very appealing to many people. I stayed in because I was good at it, I enjoyed it, and I didn't want to drag a black suitcase behind me on the way to a hotel for 10-14 days a month. I liked flying in the Air Force and the additional money and free time weren't that important to me. I decided to stay in before the bonus was offered. I took it, but I didn't stay in because of it. 9/11 changed everything for me. We saw many people quit their airline jobs to return and serve. After 9/11 I decided to continue serving until I was told my talents and service were no longer needed. We are a nation at war with an enemy determined to kill our families and destroy our way of life. I serve because someone needs to defend this great nation from the evil assholes that will attack us whenever they can. I'm still good at my job, I still enjoy it and not many people have the opportunity to do what I do. I enjoy taking the fight to the enemy and kicking the shit out of him on a regular basis.

We are on the cusp of a big airline hiring surge and we will see retention drop. Good people will do what is best for them. All of those who leave service for other options should be genuinely thanked for their service and assisted with the transition to civilian life. Most will be combat hardened veterans who have earned the respect of a grateful nation and Air Force. They are not "quitters" or disloyal, they are incredible men and women who volunteered to serve honorably and have more than paid back what they owe for the training, resources and experience the AF invested in them. They are also not all disgruntled, or are quitting because senior leadership has lost their minds, or they are in mourning because their traditions have been ripped from them. We shouldn't attempt to broadly characterize why some don't stay and we shouldn't broadly categorize why people stay in. The reasons are complex and usually based on the individual's preferences more than institutional advantages or shortcomings. We should not tolerate talk and actions related to post-service employment at work. Do the f*ing job you are paid to do and plan for your post-service job on your own time. Stop the airline conversations in the pilot shop and make sure people are earning their damn paychecks.

Flying hours and modernization will continue to be cut. Afghanistan and deployments will wind down. Staffs will be reduced. School opportunities will continue to be cut. Congress and POTUS will continue to cut defense spending and expect reduced costs. The all-time high retention rates we have seen will drop and we will have pilot production and retention challenges. Our all volunteer force will step up and meet the demands our nation asks us to meet. It will all work out.

[xaarman]

^ best post, most realistic except for the no airline talk.

I have read probably 10 memoirs of people in the military, and every single one of them complains of bad leadership, too much bureaucracy and stories of people who resign in protest. Que the Dear Boss letter here... Somewhere there is a happy balance, whether it's the airlines (which we will talk about, I need to get my ATP here) or staying for 30+, it's a discussion that will happen in groups, but the decision will be made individually. No General is going to stop the conversation, especially in the next 5 years.

[Jaded]

Our wing stan eval shop was good enough to send out a wing email advertising the base aero club's ATP services prior to the FAA changes next year. I guess they're more concerned about the futures of the service members than what you consider acceptable work discussions.

Really, why not eliminate all of our transition programs too? If conversations about post employment should be banned, then post employment services should have no place in our organization as well.

[Liquid]

You had me, then you really lost me. I'm losing track of the things you believe people should not think or say on AF time. Fortunately, at my airline, we're allowed to talk about whatever the ###### we want... even while we're doing our f*ing job. Interestingly, being treated like a responsible adult lends itself to increased job satisfaction. It seems a little odd to give such sincere congratulations to those who have left AD while backhanding those who are considering it. We have a few recent news articles about pilots sitting on their hands due to flying hour cuts and you're accusing those same pilots talking airlines of squandering productivity? Then, you go on to effectively shrug and say "Eh, it'll all work itself out with or without you." How do you expect guys not to talk airlines if their boss were to say something like this?

Nobody cares what you talk about on your airline job. You should not be paid to work on your next job while at work on active duty. Do that on your own time. Yeah, yeah, we have transition programs. Do it then too. It is incredible how many people bitch about how hard it is to find the time to knock out AAD/PME/DTS/CBTs/fill in the blank additional duties and how much is distracts from their -1 studies, warfighting focus and professional development, but think it is perfectly fine to surf the net, network and bullshit about their ATP and interview. Make up your ing minds. But make sure you do the job the taxpayer expects you to do first. When I was a Captain and encountered pilots chatting about their airline prep in the pilot office, I would give them a no-notice ground eval to check their systems knowledge and combat readiness. It was amazing how fast that reduced the around time and set the standard that we actually focused on at work. Remember, while you are planning your next career, there are plenty of other people in the squadron that will be there for a long time and could actually benefit from your experience more than hearing the details of how and why you are separating.

[Vetter]

When you were a Captain, you'd give no-notice ground evals to your fellow Captains? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm sure you didn't do that Majors and Lt Cols. And who cares about LTs. That leaves fellow Captains...your fucking peer group. I would have laughed at you. I actually laugh at you now. The Air Force is fucked. Glad it got rid of me!

[slackline]

Nobody cares what you talk about on your airline job. You should not be paid to work on your next job while at work on active duty. Do that on your own time. Yeah, yeah, we have transition programs. Do it then too. It is incredible how many people bitch about how hard it is to find the time to knock out AAD/PME/DTS/CBTs/fill in the blank additional duties and how much is distracts from their -1 studies, warfighting focus and professional development, but think it is perfectly fine to surf the net, network and bullshit about their ATP and interview. Make up your ######ing minds. But make sure you do the job the taxpayer expects you to do first. When I was a Captain and encountered pilots chatting about their airline prep in the pilot office, I would give them a no-notice ground eval to check their systems knowledge and combat readiness. It was amazing how fast that reduced the ######around time and set the standard that we actually focused on at work. Remember, while you are planning your next career, there are plenty of other people in the squadron that will be there for a long time and could actually benefit from your experience more than hearing the details of how and why you are separating.

Seriously? You must have been loved by your bros back in the day. That is the saddest thing I've heard this week. Nobody here believes for a minute that you're all business during the duty day. You either are disliked by everyone behind your back, or you simply don't have any friends with an attitude like that. People are going to talk about what's important to them when at work, while working... Impossible to avoid, and you're crazy for demanding it. Maybe you're just not being clear. Maybe you meant that significant time should not be devoted to it while during duty hours? Maybe you were just referring to a two hour whining session? If that's what you were saying, then I think most reasonable people here would agree with you. If not, you need to really take a look at your expectations, and ask yourself, "am I really that d bag that I used to hate because he 'didn't get it'?"

I like a lot of what you have to say, but you occasionally lose sight of reality! That is what is driving people out. Leaders that talk the good talk a lot, but then wipe out everything they've previously said with one new policy, asinine comment about what they're allowed to talk about at work, etc. you guys really don't get it. I seriously wonder how a guy like me is going to survive in this AF? I'm going to school, I'll probably end up running a sqdn in a few years, and I'm going to quickly be fired for not toeing the party line because that line is ridiculous. I'll lay it out for my guys, as to what people like you expect from them, and then I'll let them know what is important to me. Nobody is going to get special treatment for the crap that gets people strats right now. I'm going to have to fight my boss and his boss to justify why my number one guy is the best tactical guy in the sqdn, who is well rounded. Well rounded to me doesn't include some BS degree or CFC volunteer, but a solid leader who mentors young pilots, makes sure the sqdn is running smoothly, and has his personal life in order. That probably means I'll never go further than SQ/CC if I even survive that without getting fired.

Sorry, I'm rambling, but you really make people think about what they want to get out of this AF. I guess that's a good thing...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[brabus]

When you were a Captain, you'd give no-notice ground evals to your fellow Captains?

Are you really surprised Vetter? I'm not, but I still have to throw out the obligatory, YGBSM!

[C-21.Pilot]

Nice false dichotomy, bro. There are many of us who're still happy making the mission happen...have great financial plans...and are not school selects.

Trust me, you are in the minority -- more than you think.

[Gravedigger]

You should not be paid to work on your next job while at work on active duty. Do that on your own time.

So it's different if your next job is on Active Duty? When I was the OG Exec, my boss spent who knows how many hours on the phone with the Wing/CC and NAF/CC and others working his next assignment. Every other O-6+ I have ever been around has done the same thing. Hell, basically everyone I know works their own assignment. Somehow these people working active duty assignments are better than the guys working jobs outside the Air Force? Seems sort of stupid to me. Either you are 100% focused on your current job 100% of the time, or you aren't. Why does it matter what the next job is? I don't think people staying on Active Duty should be able to work assignments if the people getting out are not allowed to do the same. The message that sends is "people that separate suck."

[Butters]

Trust me, you are in the minority -- more than you think.

Trust me, you are wrong -- more than you think.

I was not a school select and I have a great financial plan. I invented a device that safely and efficiently removes salt from sea water. Think about it! There would be enough salt in the world for everyone. I can sell it cheap and retire.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Butters

[Champ Kind]

Liquid, your remarks are truly representative of the AF at-large.

I say that because I find myself casually nodding in agreement at some of the things you say, only to read some of your true gems and find myself wanting to smash my screen because of your absolute disconnection with reality... much like a number of policies/talking points I see coming from upper management.

The only thing that will keep me from punching is more good bosses like the one I have now. That's it. Other than that, this organization has become just like any other "job" out there--the fun has largely been sucked out of it. I'm not even buying the "working with good dudes" part anymore. I'll make other buddies elsewhere. You characterize it that way yourself by repeatedly calling it "work". It used to be called a "squadron". Now its a "workplace". I would actually take a pay cut if that means I have the ability to control my own future. And no, I'm not necessarily one of the "disgruntled employees" that you and your peers would write off. I've actually done/am doing pretty well so far, but hearing the Big Blue spin of guys are getting out because they are "bored" boggles my mind. How about "our organization has trampled these guys for 12+ years with ops tempo and stupid ass rules... Hard work has been rewarded with more hard (and mindless, queepy) work. ...now they are seeing the light." Yeah, much more realistic.

Your all-volunteer force has been getting worked over and getting kicked in the junk in the name of service to God and country for too long now. People just aren't buying it anymore. Good luck trying to make it more attractive to new accessions in the future and trying to sway those guys on the fence as those ADSCs run out.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Champ Kind

[Danny Noonin]

Great post Champ

[xaarman]

So... If I'm flying a 12 hour sortie out of an undisclosed location in Southwest Asia, am I allowed to talk about my ATP then? Or should I be bringing work on the jet so it's 100% business 100% of the time. Just wondering, I don't want a N/N Ground Eval when I land.

[Liquid]

Liquid, your remarks are truly representative of the AF at-large.

I say that because I find myself casually nodding in agreement at some of the things you say, only to read some of your true gems and find myself wanting to smash my screen because of your absolute disconnection with reality... much like a number of policies/talking points I see coming from upper management.

The only thing that will keep me from punching is more good bosses like the one I have now. That's it. Other than that, this organization has become just like any other "job" out there--the fun has largely been sucked out of it. I'm not even buying the "working with good dudes" part anymore. I'll make other buddies elsewhere. You characterize it that way yourself by repeatedly calling it "work". It used to be called a "squadron". Now its a "workplace". I would actually take a pay cut if that means I have the ability to control my own future. And no, I'm not necessarily one of the "disgruntled employees" that you and your peers would write off. I've actually done/am doing pretty well so far, but hearing the Big Blue spin of guys are getting out because they are "bored" boggles my mind. How about "our organization has trampled these guys for 12+ years with ops tempo and stupid ass rules... Hard work has been reworded with more hard (and mindless, queepy) work. ...now they are seeing the light." Yeah, much more realistic.

Your all-volunteer force has been getting worked over and getting kicked in the junk in the name of service to God and country for too long now. People just aren't buying it anymore. Good luck trying to make it more attractive to new accessions in the future and trying to sway those guys on the fence as those ADSCs run out.

Great points Champ. I completely agree that we have been trampling good people for 12+ years with high ops tempo and stupid ass rules. I suspect the Chief and SecAF are using the bored descriptions to highlight to congress and the people the absurdity of cutting flying hour programs and readiness. We pay for the aircraft and the people, can't cut them in reduced budgets, and have to cut how much we fly them. The justifiable fear of a hollow force, one too large to keep ready, is a big concern. Maybe bored sounds better to them than disgruntled, discouraged or disgusted. Throughout my career I have tried to attack the problem of too many stupid rules. I rarely put out any policy memos or additional restrictions to current guidance. I always made sure everyone understood the waiver authority and who had the authority to violate policies and guidance. In our current compliance at all costs climate, we have lost the art of bending the rules and operating in the gray area. Most guidance can be interpreted to your advantage. 10 JAGs will give 10 different recommendations, so you need to have a JAG focused on the mission and willing to articulate why you interpreted guidance to get the mission done. We need to know and teach the difference between not checking to make sure nukes are on your aircraft and knowing when to violate policy to save money, mission and lives. Unfortunately, with the current global threats and challenges and continued fiscal constraints, it isn't going to get easier in the future. I agree that we need to cut the mindless, queepy work and put the fun back into the squadrons. That fun just can't include strippers, porn and cute word games anymore.