Hueypilot Posted December 13, 2013 Posted December 13, 2013 I found it funny today that when I went to work the AF still existed after a 68% bonus take rate and a hiring boom. True, the AF will still "exist". But your experience (flying experience) will all be sitting at desks while your cockpits are filled with with LTs. Good luck with that.
11F Posted December 13, 2013 Posted December 13, 2013 I've also heard that a Mt. Home F-15E squadron is going to be shut down and stood up as a guard squadron in order to free up active duty 11Fs.
HeloDude Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Over/under if there will be one this year? Maybe for certain AFSC's? Here's what I've also been wondering...if you're a 2001/2002/2003 year group pilot who completed their 10-year commitment recently/or will do so soon in the next 6-9 months, even if you're in an AFSC that is accepting VSP/subject to a possible RIF, the AF can't allow too many 11M's, 11B's, etc to put in for separation if they're only asking for a few to get out. For example, if the Air Force needs to get rid of 4 KC-135 pilots from the 2002 YG, and they have 20 guys apply for VSP--even if they accept 4 of them for VSP, the other 16 can still apply for normal separation as their commitment will be over. In that example, if the AF needs at least some of those other 16 guys to stay in, will they then still offer the bonus? What about fighter, helo, and RPA guys where there is not VSP?...I know for a fact that some of these guys want to get out regardless. Also, I have a funny feeling that the 99-01' YG guys who didn't accept the bonus will be considered low hanging fruit to be RIF's if they don't apply for VSP. Thoughts?
sqwatch Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Rumor from CC, claims its from a source at the puzzle palace in DC. Combo of A-10, F-15 and staff cuts would delete a lot of rated positions and "fix the glitch" of a pilot shortage. With no shortage, they have talked about no bonus this year. A lot of moving parts, like when do the plans get released, when does the bonus announcement come out, etc. Interesting that a year after it goes up, it goes away. Nothing certain by a long shot, just talk. I can't believe AFPC would want to deal with a bunch of free agents with opportunities on the outside in the coming years. Even butters admits the hiring boom is here. My money is on the bonus staying the same or going up for 11Fs next year. But then again I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong.
shweaty Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Someone brought up a point to me that it says on the matrix and on mypers that people with selective continuation can only put in for the programs. Any thoughts?
Bender Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Someone brought up a point to me that it says on the matrix and on mypers that people with selective continuation can only put in for the programs. Any thoughts? Sure, a couple. 1. Are you talking about force management programs? This is the ACP thread, so that's a bit confusing if you are. 2. If you are, why wouldn't they be able to apply? 3. What is the option other than putting in for it? 4. Was this even a question related to ACP or force management or did you just want to know if I had thoughts. Sometimes I do... Super unclear question, bro. (To me anyways...) Bendy
Flare Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Now that the RIF eligibility matrix is out, I wonder how this will affect the bonus. They couldn't possibly RIF the 11B/M/Rs and offer them a bonus too, could they? (of course they could, and probably will.....but why?)
Ram Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 RIF certain flavors of 11X, yet offer bonuses to other flavors?
HeloDude Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 I checked the Defense Budget that got signed the other week and once again the bonus authorization was in there. I have the same curious questions about the bonus being offered to the VSP/RIF eligible AFSC's. My bet is that they will delay the bonus until they are done with all the RIF's and then offer the bonus to all eligibles.
General Chang Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 There will be a bonus. No question. Only question is how much. I anticipate little to no change.
HossHarris Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Late. As usual. Afpc clownshow standard Edited January 25, 2014 by HossHarris 2
busdriver Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Now that the RIF eligibility matrix is out, I wonder how this will affect the bonus. They couldn't possibly RIF the 11B/M/Rs and offer them a bonus too, could they? (of course they could, and probably will.....but why?) Because the bonus reduces uncertainty. Whether that person would have stayed in or not, if you're managing forces levels you don't really know unless they sign on the line and commit.
Learjetter Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Because the bonus means AFPC stops having to think, and Sq/CCs don't have to think, because people on the bonus are "all-in." It's a trap, and AF leaders won't have to learn to properly lead/inspire people in service, or properly manage careers, until it's no longer an option. I've said it before: kill the bonus, and reduce UPT commitments to six years (max)...everyone wins! 1
General Chang Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Because the bonus means AFPC stops having to think, and Sq/CCs don't have to think, because people on the bonus are "all-in." It's a trap, and AF leaders won't have to learn to properly lead/inspire people in service, or properly manage careers, until it's no longer an option. I've said it before: kill the bonus, and reduce UPT commitments to six years (max)...everyone wins! What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion.
ComingLeft Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion. Chang, your analogy is highly flawed. The AF is in a unique position in how it can create one-sided labor contracts. These are ILLEGAL in the civilian world, something about slavery. A labor contract in the civilian world is like a prenuptial. If a divorce happens, you cannot sue to stay married, but money and property will change hands. In fact common law has proceeded in such a way that courts will throw out highly restrictive agreements as unconscionable. Learjetter's concern is that the ACP is a bait and switch, not how good of a deal it is for everyone. Most want to fly their same aircraft through their ACP, not deploy on a non-flying 365. This is where the analogy breaks down. Learjetter goes to jail for telling the AF to screw itself. In the civilian world, money changes hands, and you never send your resume back there.
General Chang Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Chang, your analogy is highly flawed. The AF is in a unique position in how it can create one-sided labor contracts. These are ILLEGAL in the civilian world, something about slavery. A labor contract in the civilian world is like a prenuptial. If a divorce happens, you cannot sue to stay married, but money and property will change hands. In fact common law has proceeded in such a way that courts will throw out highly restrictive agreements as unconscionable. Learjetter's concern is that the ACP is a bait and switch, not how good of a deal it is for everyone. Most want to fly their same aircraft through their ACP, not deploy on a non-flying 365. This is where the analogy breaks down. Learjetter goes to jail for telling the AF to screw itself. In the civilian world, money changes hands, and you never send your resume back there. Bait & switch? Really? I don't think so. There's zero mystery when you sign on the dotted line that you lose all control. Zero. Say this with me: "I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus." No slavery here. Would I take the bonus? Heck yes! But I recognize that a personal price is paid if I do. I trade power for money, just like 60-70% choose to do every year. Trust me, personnelists never have and never will make promises to get you to sign. We don't need to, and besides, it's unethical. Your complaints above fall on deaf ears. Edited January 25, 2014 by General Chang
Skitzo Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Unless we return to an Air Force where if you don't sign, you don't fly... I think the road of the future is to find a way to make it cheaper to train AF pilots to a point where both the 10 year commitment remains but the bonus does not.
billy pilgrim Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 I agree. Make it more attractive to become a pilot. Start with a six year commitment (a RAND Study MG-855 Fighter Drawdown Dynamics calls the ten year commitment an "extraordinary measure"). This will create accountibility for leaders to manage the work force appropriately, attract the best and brightest America has to offer, and in the end, increase combat capability. Pilots are the backbone of the Air Force's combat capability, if we lose our expertise and experience we may still look okay on paper but we certainly won't be able to fight. No way in hell I am getting locked in for another decade. I am not bitter, I just have zero faith in big blue. 1
ComingLeft Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Bait & switch? Really? I don't think so. There's zero mystery when you sign on the dotted line that you lose all control. Zero. Say this with me: "I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus." No slavery here. Would I take the bonus? Heck yes! But I recognize that a personal price is paid if I do. I trade power for money, just like 60-70% choose to do every year. Trust me, personnelists never have and never will make promises to get you to sign. We don't need to, and besides, it's unethical. Your complaints above fall on deaf ears. See previous. Losing all control is the issue with the ACP. Bad deployment or PCS? Return the "unearned portion" and walk. Just like the real world. Power for money? Incorrect. Freedom for Money, which IMHO is a terrible trade. “I run best when I run free.” - Steve Prefontaine”
HeloDude Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion. I agree with everything you said...except your analogy. The Air Force is not locking down a 'best of the best' or 'top talent'...they are locking down a skill-set to perform a mission, no more, no less. I would be curious to see what would happen if the AF decided to not give out a bonus for 2 years...one year for people to be shocked, and one more year to show it wasn't an accident. As as far as commitments go, I bet Big Blue could raise the commitment to 13 years and they'd still not have a problem getting qualified (as well as quality) young guys to accept the service commitment as long as it meant that they get to go to UPT, get paid to fly military aircraft, and even have a chance at flying those super awesome shiny F-22's. Thank about it...how many of us at 17-18 were concerned about a longer commitment (compared to the standard commissioning commitment) as long as it meant we were going to get to fly? Even when it came down to us 22-23 year olds going to UPT, most of us (at least not me and my friends) were not too worried about the 10-year commitment, even when we saw it go from 8 to 10 when we were half way done with ROTC. Are the 22-23 year old kids thinking much differently than we thought 12 years ago? Going to the 10 year commitment was a smart move for the AF. They no longer had to offer excessive bonuses to all the pilots (some guys signed 14 year long bonuses). 1 1
Fuzz Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Was reading this and thought of this: Here are 10 ways to guarantee that your best people will quit: 10. Treat everyone equally. This may sound good, but your employees are not equal. Some are worth more because they produce more results. The key is not to treat them equally, it is to treat them all fairly. 9. Tolerate mediocrity. A-players dont have to or want to play with a bunch of C-players. 8. Have dumb rules. I did not say have no rules, I said dont have dumb rules. Great employees want to have guidelines and direction, but they dont want to have rules that get in the way of doing their jobs or that conflict with the values the company says are important. 7. Dont recognize outstanding performance and contributions. Remember Psychology 101 Behavior you want repeated needs to be rewarded immediately. 6. Dont have any fun at work. Wheres the written rule that says work has to be serious? If you find it, rip it to shreds and stomp on it because the notion that work cannot be fun is actually counterproductive. The workplace should be fun. Find ways to make work and/or the work environment more relaxed and fun and you will have happy employees who look forward to coming to work each day. 5. Dont keep your people informed. Youve got to communicate not only the good, but also the bad and the ugly. If you dont tell them, the rumor mill will. 4. Micromanage. Tell them what you want done and how you want it done. Dont tell them why it needs to be done and why their job is important. Dont ask for their input on how it could be done better. 3. Dont develop an employee retention strategy. Employee retention deserves your attention every day. Make a list of the people you dont want to lose and, next to each name, write down what you are doing or will do to ensure that person stays engaged and on board. 2. Dont do employee retention interviews. Wait until a great employee is walking out the door instead and conduct an exit interview to see what you could have done differently so they would not have gone out looking for another job. 1. Make your onboarding program an exercise in tedium. Employees are most impressionable during the first 60 days on the job. Every bit of information gathered during this time will either reinforce your new hires buying decision (to take the job) or lead to Hires Remorse. The biggest cause of Hires Remorse is the dreaded Employee Orientation/Training Program. Most are poorly organized, inefficient, and boring. How can you expect excellence from your new hires if your orientation program is a sloppy amalgamation of tedious paperwork, boring policies and procedures, and hours of regulations and red tape? To reinforce their buying decision, get key management involved on the first day and make sure your orientation delivers and reinforces these three messages repeatedly: A. You were carefully chosen and were glad youre here; B. Youre now part of a great organization; C. This is why your job is so important. https://www.tlnt.com/2013/04/08/hiring-wisdom-top-10-ways-to-guarantee-your-best-people-will-quit/ 4
TarHeelPilot Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 How long has ACP been $25K, since the mid 90s? Base pay for an O-4 with 10 years of service in 1995 was $3432. Today it is $6593. ACP needs to increase commensurate with inflation, or it's not an effective tool--particularly with airline hiring. 2
BFM this Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) I would second that, but someone already beat me to it. What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion. It really blows my mind that so many actually do take the bonus. I knew one guy that couldn't catch a break when it came to assignments. Then he passed on the bonus, and started sinking three pointers every vml. Edited January 25, 2014 by BFM this
hindsight2020 Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 It really blows my mind that so many actually do take the bonus. Honestly? That's easy. i) They live way the fuck above their means (their wives demand it). ii) They were gonna attempt to stay in anyways (and don't kid yourself, that's a mere corollary of i ). Over at the other airline forum there's a couple of retired mobility O-5 bitching about not being able to make ends meet on retired mil pay and regional FO pay. One went so far to admit he needed an additional 5K above his retired pay (4K) in order to make black for his particular family situation. 9K to cover the expenditures column of the ledger, every month. LOL. You tell me why people take such a piddly bonus to lose all control. 3
nsplayr Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 9K to cover the expenditures column of the ledger, every month. LOL. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/
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