Homestar Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 The bonus to 20 years nearly doubles the payout for 11Xs. I predict that take rates will be close to historical average.
Nineline Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 The bonus to 20 years nearly doubles the payout for 11Xs. I predict that take rates will be close to historical average. It nearly doubles the payout, but you gotta serve nearly double the commitment. Also, the bonus is to 20 years of aviation service, which for most folks is 21-22 years of total service and means that the 9 year bonus will make people serve longer than necessary for retirement. -9-
Homestar Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 I'd like to see the number of 5-year bonus-takers who made it to 16 but didn't stick it out to 20. My guess is that nearly all bonus takers rode it out to 20. So yeah, a 5-year taker could get out at 16, but who does that? I'm sure it happens, but that's leaving a lot of money on the table by skipping out on the cliff pension. I'm in a fortunate position because 20 YAS takes me to 20 years 2 months.
MooseAg03 Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 You started pilot training 2 months after your EAD date? Wow.
Nineline Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see the number of 5-year bonus-takers who made it to 16 but didn't stick it out to 20. My guess is that nearly all bonus takers rode it out to 20. So yeah, a 5-year taker could get out at 16, but who does that? I'm sure it happens, but that's leaving a lot of money on the table by skipping out on the cliff pension. I'm in a fortunate position because 20 YAS takes me to 20 years 2 months. I know a few passed-over majors that were offered full-time guard or reserve jobs for units that were standing up or switching airframes, and those that could jump ship at 16 did to take advantage of that. As an added bonus, most if not all of those guys pinned on O-5 after leaving AD and will get the same AD retirement. -9- Reason for edit: Misinformation Edited April 23, 2015 by Nineline
HeloDude Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 And unless you commissioned and completed pilot training in 2 months, you're mistaken. The "years of aviation service" clock begins when you finish UPT, not when you start it. Hopefully you weren't a Whiting/Corpus guy who took 2-3 years to finish UPT. -9- Negative. It starts when you went on AO's...first day you started UPT. Ask your HARM.
Herk Driver Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Negative. It starts when you went on AO's...first day you started UPT. Ask your HARM. 2
Nineline Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Negative. It starts when you went on AO's...first day you started UPT. Ask your HARM. You're right, I stand corrected. Note to self: YAS is different from years of rated service as defined in 11-402. -9- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
StealthDriver Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) This rant is meant for those who are thinking of staying in 20years and plan to either fly airlines or have airlines in mind as a backup post retirement.... It still boggles my mind how $25k per year could be the least bit appetizing to anyone...especially in this current environment. Hell, by the time you factor in taxes, your are getting as much as your son or daughter could make with a part time job at McDonalds. What a freaking joke. Another bit of food for thought is that (unless you played your cards right and are a millionair by the time you retire as a LT Col) you are going to still need to work. Based on current retiring Lt Cols, about 70% of them, maybie more are going airlines, or at least trying. What does this mean? Well it means that they either planned from the begging to go airlines or had it as a backup because they realize they still need to work. So let's say that stays the same, that means about 70% of us will be looking to do the same in 10 years. Sooo, either way, most of us will still need to work. With the current hiring boom, if your plan or back-up plan is to fly commercial post retirement as a means of maintaining your financial quality of life, why the heck would you not get out as a young guy now? The wave has arrived and the front side of that wave is going to stick around for 3-4 years or so. It just makes sence to be at the beginning of that hiring spree. The biggest stress you will have in the commercial world is how many numbers are behind you. Seniority is THE issue. Doing so gets you that seniority that you will not have should you wait 10 years from now. The guys that are taking these commercial jobs withen the next 2-3 years are going to realize that their decision to punch was probably one of their best financial decisions they've made. When their buddies show up to the same Airline at age 45 kicking the tires as retired Lt Cols that took a $25k/yr bonus while the one who didn't is now a Captain it will be interesting to see who's quality of life is better at that point. It would take that dude probably to age 55 maybie 60 just to hit Captain! Also, the dude who punched is looking at a 30 year Airline retirement vs the other dude who is looking at a 15yr. The difference is HUGE (sts)! And the set income of an AF Retirement doesn't come close to what you would have made by putting in 30yrs with an Airline. As it stands today, if your plan is to do airlines after 20years AD, your going to have missed the hiring wave, you will be older, you will still need to work, your standard of living will be higher, your kids will be in college, you will have probably done at least one 365 away from your family, you will be joining an airline and flying the crappy lines as an FO to pay your dues to climb the ladder all while being older and your body not as swift to recoupe had you done it when you were 33yrs old and the hiring wave was cush, you will be tired, it will take you forever and a day to make Captain because by the time you do you will be forced to retire at age 65, 10 years from now you will be looking at your buddies FB profile pics who punched and you will be kicking yourself, you will have PCS'd at least 2-3 more times for the Air Force, one of those moves will probably be right smack in the middle of one of your kids high school years and they will hate you (ok, maybe not hate)...all for $25k per year before taxes...what a joke. Don't sell your sole for this last ditch effort that AD AF is trying to get you to bite off on...Their mismanagement and apparent attempts to fix the situation is nothing more than a slap in the face to good aviators and good people who deserve much better treatment. It's not about the money...never was. Anyone else see this as well? Maybe it's just the beer talking ;) Edited April 23, 2015 by StealthDriver 5
Bender Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) ...all for $25k per year before taxes...what a joke. It's not about the money...never was.Apparently, for you, it is now...and that's okay. The Air Force is doing a lot of things wrong, and a lot of things right. You need to go ahead and do what is right for you; I'm glad you know what that is. Go ahead, finish your beer, and stop telling me what the fuck to do. Bendy Edited April 23, 2015 by Bender 3
HeloDude Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 You're right, I stand corrected. Note to self: YAS is different from years of rated service as defined in 11-402. -9- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk No problem man.
StealthDriver Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Go ahead, finish your beer, and stop telling me what the to do. Bendy #1. I will finish my beer #2. Stay classy brother Edited April 23, 2015 by StealthDriver
guineapigfury Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 StealthDriver, I get where you're coming from. But each pilot's decision is his own. As far as the millionaire thing, I think i can make it. My situation is far from ideal: i'm in debt right now due to a recent divorce and i expect to get passed over for major this year. If i take the devils money, i need to bank the signing bonus and an additional 50k per year and get about a 7% return on my money per year to hit 7 figures. Certainly doable. I've got no kids and i don't plan on having any, so that helps. I don't like my job (mq-9s) but i will like being retired in my mid 40s, sitting on a beach in Thailand with a drink in my hand enjoying $75k+ in retirement income (pension + investments) and never working another day in my life. Technique only.
Jaded Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 You expect to make 75k a year from retirement after being passed over for major? I'm not a math major, but... 2
Homestar Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Stuff Strange level of vitriol on this one. I get being jaded, but jeezus. You started pilot training 2 months after your EAD date? Wow. Indeed, was fortunate to get slammed 4 months early into a drop-down spot.
ThreeHoler Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 You started pilot training 2 months after your EAD date? Wow. Shortest I know of is 12 days after EAD, but that was many years ago.
HeloDude Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Shortest I know of is 12 days after EAD, but that was many years ago. Me and a lot of my buds all started within 3+ months of our EAD. So if the AF needs me to serve an extra 3 months past 20 to get an extra $75-100K for something I was going to do anyway, then why not? As someone who has little to no desire to fly after the AF (whether rotary or fixed wing), I appreciate the guys who are getting out and the AF having to throw more money at the rest of us to try and solve their problem. This also should make it a 'little' bit easier when competing for O-5...but who knows. As for all the guys serving their commitment and wanting to punch for the airlines, I wish them the best of luck and thank them for their courage and service. If my goal was to fly for the airlines then there's no way in hell I would stay in past the 11-12 years.
DirkDiggler Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 14 days for me. No rhyme or reason why...every other dude I knew at the time did a year casual. Stealth driver, I think most people who decide, like me, to stay are aware of the missed opportunity for seniority and decide to accept it. I know that doesn't make sense to you for the reasons you stated. The problem with your argument is that you're comparing 9 extra years in the AF and 9 years working at an airline as if they're completely equivalent except for the money/seniority. Money is important and a huge motivator, but there are so many other variables at play. Guys are fairly confident they're not going to go broke in either profession, so other QoL issues become priorities. I have several core reasons I stayed, and money was not very high on the list. Really. I'm one of the few guys who truely enjoys my job, the people, the lifestyle and the benefits (...not just the financial ones). I assessed that my (and my families) quality of life and happiness would take a significant hit if I went to the airlines at the 11 year mark, so to me it was a no-brainer to stay and keep doing what I love to do versus someing that appeals to me only to pay the bills. I'll most likely pay a monetary penalty for that later, and that's fine. My kids will still have food on the table. You mention the benefits of spending 30 years of your life at an airline, except there's a problem: I don't want to spend 30 years of my life working at an airline. If you do, good on you. If that's a better option for you than your experience in the AF, press. Enjoy. But I think it's shortsighted to assume that everyone that wants to do airlines wants to do it for 30 years or that the driving factor for decisions to stay in/get out are money/seniority. As most guys have stated before, the fundamental flaw in the bonus is that the majority of guys taking it were going to stay anyway. So again, I think it's a little melodramatic to say that bonus takers have "sold their soul" or are staying, literally, for an extra 25k a year. Well said
ViperStud Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 I love how a lot of dudes that punch complain about the leadership/management on AD and about how the patch or WG/CC can't process why people don't want to follow the exact path they did... Then after they punch and get another job (ie, airlines), they preach that anyone is stupid for not following the exact same path they did... Pot, meet kettle. Just sayin. 1
Duck Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It's just that they see you guys trapped in your prison and they want to help you be free brother!
StealthDriver Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) Hoss, All good points man and to each their own. Finding and maintaining a job that you thoroughly enjoy is key. Like you said, you are one of the few and for that you are making the right decision for yourself and that is admirable brother. My point on the 30yr career vs 15yr in the airlines is simply that either way, most (whether a 20 year AF Retiree going Airlines or the kid that gets out at his 10 year mark) will end up working until age 60 (on average) in the Airlines. My origional post was towards guys who plan to go Airlines one way or another or have Airlines as their primary fallback post retirement. Not meant towards guys who do not plan on going the Airline route and have a totally different post retirement plan all together. For those right now that are at their 10yr decision point and are planning on the Airline job one way or another (whether post retirement or jumping in as a young guy), it just gets tougher as we age as aviators. Our bodies get older, kids get older, more expenses will pop up, standard of living normally increases and we just can't handle what we could as a young 33-34 year old in the first few years flying the Line in the Airlines. Seniority truley is everything in the Commercial world and having the added piece of mind of arriving in a very fluid market such as the Airlines is a big deal. Airline money is a very nice benifit, but some dudes, if they showed up late after the hiring wave could spend their 10-15 years with an Airline constantly wondering if they are prime to be furlough because they got in late. Being on the tail end of that whip can seriously mess with ones pshchy. Right now and for the next couple years is just the perfect time for a dude that is on the fence and who's plan involves the Airlines one way or another. These opportunities in the Airline world come around seldomly. To catch it where it is right now (if that's your cup of tea) can be invaluable. Sure, if dudes are having an awesome time in the Air Force and you just can't see yourself doing anything else, then I say Right On! Press with the commitment of 10yrs to the Air Force and take the bonus. We need good guys to stick around. But if the Airlines are a plan 10yrs from today after retiremnt it is going to be a whole different animal and dudes just need to realize that when they take that bonus and commit. We are all smart dudes and realize this. It just so happens that these next few years are the prime time for getting the wind at one's back in the Airline game...if the Airlines were something that the individual was counting on from the beginning. If a dude is happy where he is...keep roll'en...and take the $18k per year it would be stupid not to. If not, and a dude is getting beat down, then he can always go Airlines and forgoe the Queep and get paid a lot more for it. I'll leave it at that. That's just my two cents on this whole should I take the money or punch for the Airlines when the going is real good on that side of the fence. All good posts fellas Tough crowd! ;) Edited April 24, 2015 by StealthDriver
ViperMan Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) Lots of talk about money here, and while I recognize its importance, I feel like the drive to bail on the AF is all about how to wind up with $11M in your bank account when you die (which, BTW, when you die, your Uncle Same is going to recollect around 55% of that cash you didn't spend)...OR is all about how much you hate the AF - one feeling likely justifies the other. Not liking the way the AF is run is a separate subject and a valid one to critique, but without any knowledge of the airline industry, I guarantee, you a trading one shitty bureaucracy for another. I'm not sure how much more I would enjoy the $11M vs. $3M the AF will pay me in the long run - maybe 69% vs 68%? I'm sure some people are more creative than me out there and will immediately educate me on what I could use the extra $8M for, but I enjoy dropping bombs and shooting shit - yeah, if you're flying from A to B, then it makes sense to trade one A to B for another for cash, but in my world, flying from A to A with bombs in between is much more valuable from a QOL standpoint than sleeping in a Motel 6 (or Hyatt) 8 days a month - but to each their own. What I really don't get is the "shocked disbelief" that other people display when others choose to get paid the equivalent of 400K to 500K the last 5 years of active duty service...somehow that's "not worth it." That equivalent salary puts any "line" airline pilot's to shame no matter how senior they are. Yeah, being a pilot in this day and age is valuable, and that's what we're seeing in both the AF and in the airline world. Why complain about what decisions other people make? Edited April 24, 2015 by ViperMan
Vetter Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 What I really don't get is the "shocked disbelief" that other people display when others choose to get paid the equivalent of 400K to 500K the last 5 years of active duty service...somehow that's "not worth it." That equivalent salary puts any "line" airline pilot's to shame no matter how senior they are. I don't understand this. Where are the 400k to 500k numbers coming from?
TheCubDriver Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 When does the clock start for ACP eligibility? Case being a former NAV turned Pilot. Would it begin with NAV wings or Pilot?
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