Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Jaded]

Doubt it. Why would they? You're not going anywhere.

[BADFNZ]

20 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Doubt it. Why would they? You're not going anywhere.

Pretty much.  Big Blue is obviously lacking in many facets, but one thing they'll never fuck up is knowing when they have someone by the balls.

[Champ Kind]

Since they are offering ACP out to 20 years for all pilots now, does anyone know if they are considering extending this option to those coming up on the end of their 5 year commitment who didn't have the same 20 year option?(The folks that signed up in FY11, 12, 13)

Not sure about signing up after completion of a five year contract, but I did notice that the offer for "all pilots" (removing the TIS limit) paid $15K/year versus the standard $25K. Not enough, in my opinion.

[GoNiners]

Doubt it. Why would they? You're not going anywhere.

That's what I figured as well....

But if the logic says you aren't going anywhere after 5 years of bonus pay, then why are they offering up to 9 years now versus sticking with the old 5 year construct?

[Jughead]

8 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Some places use the Q3 like an LOR.

Any home-station CC worth the title would (a) call the deployed commander and tell him he's a douche and (b) accidentally misplace the Form 8 so that it regrettably could not be included in the FEF going forward....

[Guest]

The NDAA only allows $25k/yr currently, so a longer contract is the only way to offer a greater financial incentive.

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[BADFNZ]

1 hour ago, GoNiners said:

That's what I figured as well....

But if the logic says you aren't going anywhere after 5 years of bonus pay, then why are they offering up to 9 years now versus sticking with the old 5 year construct?

Because the jig is up and people are seeing through all the smoke and mirrors.  Most people see little to no value in signing for 5 years just to have Big Blue yank the rug from underneath you once your contract is up with 17 years TIS.  At least offering $25k/yr and a "guaranteed" retirement sweetens the pot a little bit for those on the fence.

[Gazmo]

Some places use the Q3 like an LOR.

Any home-station CC worth the title would (a) call the deployed commander and tell him he's a douche and (b) accidentally misplace the Form 8 so that it regrettably could not be included in the FEF going forward....

No, we'd never do that. You'd be hard pressed to find a CC with large enough testicles to do that.

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[Cap-10]

Doubt it. Why would they? You're not going anywhere.

False!

I took a 5 year bonus, then Palace Front'd to AFRC.

Cap-10

[GoNiners]

Doubt it. Why would they? You're not going anywhere.

False!

I took a 5 year bonus, then Palace Front'd to AFRC.

Cap-10

Did you get another bonus when you did the Palace Front? I see that they give up to $15K for certain AFSCs.

[Jughead]

12 hours ago, Gazmo said:

No, we'd never do that. You'd be hard pressed to find a CC with large enough testicles to do that.

Uncommon, no doubt--but, I was fortunate enough to have just such a CC back in the day.  It wasn't me in the hot seat, but a fellow pilot & crew was in the spotlight for something they were being threatened with total BS Q-3s for; our CC told the OG point-blank (I was in the room) that any such Form 8 would never make it into the members' FEFs so long as he was commanding the squadron.

My respect for the man went way up, and I filed it for future reference (fortunately, never used).  I just wish the mid-level captain I was at the time had had enough savvy to realize just how rare this was....

[xaarman]

Question for the old guys:

 

In 99-01 the take rate averaged in the mid 30%s... how does the culture and complaints then compare to now? Same gripes? It seems that bonus take rate is directly proportional to airline hiring, but were people this bitter and jaded too? Has it gotten worse, or is this just history repeating itself?

 

This Duffel Blog article always makes me laugh: https://www.duffelblog.com/2015/04/jcs-dont-care-youre-resigning/

[Gazmo]

Question for the old guys:

 

In 99-01 the take rate averaged in the mid 30%s... how does the culture and complaints then compare to now? Same gripes? It seems that bonus take rate is directly proportional to airline hiring, but were people this bitter and jaded too? Has it gotten worse, or is this just history repeating itself?

 

This Duffel Blog article always makes me laugh: https://www.duffelblog.com/2015/04/jcs-dont-care-youre-resigning/

I really don't think the ops tempo and climate was as bad then as it is now, but I could be mistaken.

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[GKinnear]

 

This Duffel Blog article always makes me laugh: https://www.duffelblog.com/2015/04/jcs-dont-care-youre-resigning/

The satire was almost too subtle. Good thing it was on Duffleblog, otherwise a lot of people wouldn't get it

[SurelySerious]

 

This Duffel Blog article always makes me laugh: https://www.duffelblog.com/2015/04/jcs-dont-care-youre-resigning/

The satire was almost too subtle. Good thing it was on Duffleblog, otherwise a lot of people wouldn't get it

It has never been easier to publish a scholarly article on the profession of arms, whether in one of our many journals or on any one of numerous military blogs. All of you managed to find venues to publish your resignation letters talking about all the great ideas you couldn’t find ways to circulate. None of us can figure out why you couldn’t just publish your actual ideas instead.

Love it.

[Swizzle]

Anyone have a staffer friend?! Like on any of the subcommittees working the NDAA....perhaps drop a hint. BRO-net!?

JK...this isn't how any of that works. Does anyone know btw?* (sarcasm)

[ClearedHot]

On 1/30/2016 at 9:38 AM, xaarman said:

Question for the old guys:

 

In 99-01 the take rate averaged in the mid 30%s... how does the culture and complaints then compare to now? Same gripes? It seems that bonus take rate is directly proportional to airline hiring, but were people this bitter and jaded too? Has it gotten worse, or is this just history repeating itself?

 

This Duffel Blog article always makes me laugh: https://www.duffelblog.com/2015/04/jcs-dont-care-youre-resigning/

The only thing that saved the Air Force from the late 1990's low bonus take rate was 9/11, the airlines stopped hiring and there was an obvious rise in patriotism. 

IMHO today is a perfect storm of intense hiring pressure from the airlines (partially do to increased demand but also a function of age 65 retirement kicking in), combined with a force that is fed up with the relentless ops tempo and constant trips to the desert. 

[Karl Hungus]

30 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

IMHO today is a perfect storm of intense hiring pressure from the airlines (partially do to increased demand but also a function of age 65 retirement kicking in), combined with a force that is fed up with the relentless ops tempo and constant trips to the desert. 

You left off all the additional duty bullshit, makework queep, the Social Justice Warriors running rampant, nauseating careerism, and the abuse/mismanagement of the pilot career field.

Active Duty is so fucked, yet it was all so preventable.  

[Sprkt69]

Preventable? Not likely with the leadership the AF has had and continues to produce. I fear that it will only get worse until the system fully breaks or the next big war causes a purge.

[TnkrToad]

On January 30, 2016 at 10:38 AM, xaarman said:

In 99-01 the take rate averaged in the mid 30%s... how does the culture and complaints then compare to now? Same gripes? It seems that bonus take rate is directly proportional to airline hiring, but were people this bitter and jaded too? Has it gotten worse, or is this just history repeating itself?

 

Probably helped that the AF actually had more reasonable manning, while the requirements were less: 

- FY 99: 70k officers/286k enlisted/356k total

- FY 15: 61k officers/246k enlisted/307k total

Aside from surges like Allied Force, the deployment rate was reasonable (ONW & OSW), and there were some pretty sweet deals out there (C-21 fleet was twice as big then and had some great locations, for instance). RPAs existed, but there were nowhere near as big of a thing as they are now. In the SUPT squadrons & ops flying squadrons, my experience in the latter part of the 90s was that the older heads had genuinely enjoyed their flying careers & were getting out because of the even better opportunities on the outside, rather than trying to get away from the suck which is the AD today. I don't recall any SUPT or Altus IPs in the late 90s who vol'd to teach at Laughlin to get away from the ops tempo in their MDS. In later years, I knew lots of guys willing to go to Laughlin or Altus to get away from the soul-crushing tempo.

TT

[Azimuth]

1 hour ago, TnkrToad said:

Probably helped that the AF actually had more reasonable manning, while the requirements were less: 

- FY 99: 70k officers/286k enlisted/356k total

- FY 15: 61k officers/246k enlisted/307k total

Aside from surges like Allied Force, the deployment rate was reasonable (ONW & OSW), and there were some pretty sweet deals out there (C-21 fleet was twice as big then and had some great locations, for instance). RPAs existed, but there were nowhere near as big of a thing as they are now. In the SUPT squadrons & ops flying squadrons, my experience in the latter part of the 90s was that the older heads had genuinely enjoyed their flying careers & were getting out because of the even better opportunities on the outside, rather than trying to get away from the suck which is the AD today. I don't recall any SUPT or Altus IPs in the late 90s who vol'd to teach at Laughlin to get away from the ops tempo in their MDS. In later years, I knew lots of guys willing to go to Laughlin or Altus to get away from the soul-crushing tempo.

TT

Which AETC guys are X-Banded and deploy to shitty staff jobs for longer times than they did in their MDS.  YMMV.

[Bergman]

2 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

Probably helped that the AF actually had more reasonable manning, while the requirements were less: 

- FY 99: 70k officers/286k enlisted/356k total

- FY 15: 61k officers/246k enlisted/307k total

Aside from surges like Allied Force, the deployment rate was reasonable (ONW & OSW), and there were some pretty sweet deals out there (C-21 fleet was twice as big then and had some great locations, for instance). RPAs existed, but there were nowhere near as big of a thing as they are now. In the SUPT squadrons & ops flying squadrons, my experience in the latter part of the 90s was that the older heads had genuinely enjoyed their flying careers & were getting out because of the even better opportunities on the outside, rather than trying to get away from the suck which is the AD today. I don't recall any SUPT or Altus IPs in the late 90s who vol'd to teach at Laughlin to get away from the ops tempo in their MDS. In later years, I knew lots of guys willing to go to Laughlin or Altus to get away from the soul-crushing tempo.

TT

Agree completely.

In my experience, people were much happier in the AF in the 90s.  Even the people who were getting out weren't leaving because they'd been screwed over, or were pissed at big blue in general.  The commanders were largely pretty good, people did their job and went home to their families.  I hate to say it, but in my opinion the AF is measurably worse in every area.  I've been trying to think of just ONE thing I can honestly say is better now than then, and I can't come up with anything.  Seriously.  It breaks my heart.

 

[brabus]

One thing I and a few other bros have noticed (we're not the first, I'm sure) is when given an opportunity to talk relatively frankly with a GO about the AF/why dudes hate it and want to get out, they flat out refuse to believe the AF is different than when they were CGOs/FGOs.  Even when presented with facts and emotionless arguments, they clearly maintain the memory of what it was like for them as a Lt/Capt/Maj and how it has to be the same now; everyone younger than them are just a bunch of pussies, don't have "the big picture," etc.  I'm all for a backhand of reality to whiners, but you can't ride the "you're being a pussy" train because you're presented with facts that don't support your side of the story.  This whole issue might see better traction if senior leadership started believing it's CGOs/FGOs on the state of the AF instead of being the incredibly out of touch old guy who refused to open his eyes after 1995.

Edited February 1, 2016 by brabus

[TnkrToad]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

One thing I and a few other bros have noticed (we're not the first, I'm sure) is when given an opportunity to talk relatively frankly with a GO about the AF/why dudes hate it and want to get out, they flat out refuse to believe the AF is different than when they were CGOs/FGOs.  Even when presented with facts and emotionless arguments, they clearly maintain the memory of what it was like for them as a Lt/Capt/Maj and how it has to be the same now; everyone younger than them are just a bunch of pussies, don't have "the big picture," etc.  I'm all for a backhand of reality to whiners, but you can't ride the "you're being a " train because you're presented with facts that don't support your side of the story.  This whole issue might see better traction if senior leadership started believing it's CGOs/FGOs on the state of the AF instead of being the incredibly out of touch old guy who refused to open his eyes after 1995.

It's not surprising the current crop of GOs seems out of touch, since they're almost completely comprised of folks who stayed in when their peers were getting out and going to the airlines between '95-'01.

- Year groups that hit 20 yrs between '95-'01: '75-81

- Year groups that reached bonus eligibility during this time period: '85-'91

- Welsh is a '76 USAFA grad. The youngest GOs are early 90s year group bubbas

It should be unsurprising that current GOs are out of touch; they made the exact opposite choice the majority of their peers did two decades ago. In fairness, though, I can see why the current crop of GOs would see we peons as whining, since they all lived through a period where all their peers got out, and those left had to take on huge workloads to compensate for the losses. Looks like our senior AF leaders are doing their best to replicate for the entire Air Force what they got to experience: overwork due to the attrition of their peers.

TT

[di1630]

At least I get to peruse this while doing my CBT on what the AF thinks a brothel looks like.....they must be into some low class whores.