Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, SnapLock said:

Yeah, no joke! Don't fall for it gents. Big Blue sure didn't care about the bonus or retention for what? The last 20 or so years. Now they are freaking out and the fact that we are all bailing is not going to make life better for those who stay. It's a trap!

We did it to ourselves by telling anyone who would listen that it wasn't about the money.

[SnapLock]

4 hours ago, Azimuth said:

It's not frowned upon.  However history has shown us in the USAF that being good in your AFSC, especially in the rated world, is sometimes synonymous with being a good leader.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  However not being good in your AFSC, especially in the rated world, is synonymous with being a terrible leader.

If you want to be a leader as a young punk, go for it, you had just better be great in your AFSC.  It's the "well make sure you only fly once a month so you can be the OG or Wing Exec" type mentality that people are tired of.  People are tired of the less talent getting the promotions and self-describing themselves as "leaders" and Commanders.  The talent right now is leaving the USAF.  The people who are less talented and/or too close to retirement are the ones that stay.  The less talented ones are the ones who are scared to get out, and then try to guilt trip and scare other people to stay in.  They're scared because they know they won't do well in the post-USAF world.   

Want to look at leadership?  Look at Apple.  That company invests a TON of time and energy developing people as leaders.  I've even had a great Wing Commander when I was stationed at Altus who learned a lot about leadership during his fellowship in Cupertino.

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/988062/brigadier-general-william-a-spangenthal/

I agree and disagree. Yes, we want the best at what they do to be our leaders, but I think we are missing a step. Just because someone is good at what they do doesn't mean they will be a good leader. Frankly, I think this is part of the reason why we are in this mess. From my observations we have ended up three types of leaders in the Air Force. 1. Those who suck in the jet but knew how to play the game and checked the right boxes. These types are often group or wing execs when they hit their promotion board. 2. Highly competent and tactical aviators who look good on paper. However, sometimes these types are arrogant and are climbing the ladder. These are the ones who throw their people under the bus to get where they want to go. These are often the toxic leaders. 3. Competent and tactical aviators and leaders who get it right. In my experience these are the ones I want to follow, but they are becoming more and more rare.

Part of the reason why I punched is because of the leaders. I got really sick of having commanders that thought that their sh!t didn't stink.

[nsplayr]

The bonus PSDM was corrected again today (change 3) and now includes bonus options for non-contracted and contract-expired aviators. Maybe someone out there is listening finally...

Not sure on the ROE of posing the actual doc here but it's out there on the portal...PSDM 17-39 corrected 4 Aug 17.

New Details

• Tier 1 (11Fs) who never entered into a bonus contract and UPT ADSC is expired: 5, 9 or up to 24 YAS payments of $35,000 per year
• Tier 1 previously signed a bonus contract that is expired: contract at min up to 22 YAS and max 24 YAS @ $35K
• Tier 2 (11B/11S/11M) who never entered and UPT ADSC expired: 5 or 9 years @ $30K
• Tier 2 previously signed but expired: same as Tier 1 but @ $30K
• Tier 3 (11R/11H) who never entered and UPT ADSC expired: 5 years @ $28K
• Tier 3 previously signed but expired: same as Tier 1 but @ $28K
• Tier 4 (11U/12U/13U/18X): 5 years @ $35K if UPT/URT ADSC expires in FY17

[Guest]

Smells like desperation.

[Guest]

I wish instead of 9, they offered a bonus to 20 years service. As I was casual for a year, 9 would take me to 21. I don't want to stay to 21, but I don't really want to leave 120k on the table by only taking the 5

[Bergman]

5 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:

I wish instead of 9, they offered a bonus to 20 years service. As I was casual for a year, 9 would take me to 21. I don't want to stay to 21, but I don't really want to leave 120k on the table by only taking the 5

Hope you had fun during that casual year!  Because it looks like you blew about $10k a month doing it! hahaha.  That's a shitload of hookers and blow.  Or so I've heard.

[Guest]

Hope you had fun during that casual year!  Because it looks like you blew about $10k a month doing it! hahaha.  That's a shitload of hookers and blow.  Or so I've heard.

I hate you.

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, nsplayr said:

The bonus PSDM was corrected again today (change 3) and now includes bonus options for non-contracted and contract-expired aviators. Maybe someone out there is listening finally...

Not sure on the ROE of posing the actual doc here but it's out there on the portal...PSDM 17-39 corrected 4 Aug 17.

New Details

• Tier 1 (11Fs) who never entered into a bonus contract and UPT ADSC is expired: 5, 9 or up to 24 YAS payments of $35,000 per year
• Tier 1 previously signed a bonus contract that is expired: contract at min up to 22 YAS and max 24 YAS @ $35K
• Tier 2 (11B/11S/11M) who never entered and UPT ADSC expired: 5 or 9 years @ $30K
• Tier 2 previously signed but expired: same as Tier 1 but @ $30K
• Tier 3 (11R/11H) who never entered and UPT ADSC expired: 5 years @ $28K
• Tier 3 previously signed but expired: same as Tier 1 but @ $28K
• Tier 4 (11U/12U/13U/18X): 5 years @ $35K if UPT/URT ADSC expires in FY17

12Bs, continue to fuck off.  The bonus they did release this year included exactly 4! people in my airframe.

[SurelySerious]

37 minutes ago, pawnman said:

...exactly 4! people in my airframe

24?

[Disco_Nav963]

1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

24?

IIRC it was 24 12Bs overall... Take out two that belong to AFMC, and adjust for the fact that the B-52 community has 133% as many squadrons as B-1s and 150% as many 12Bs per crew, I could easily see there only being 4 bonus-eligible B-1 WSOs.

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

24?

Kill the nerd!!

[ViperStud]

Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

[BashiChuni]

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

[Lord Ratner]

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

[nsplayr]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

 In that case I'll alert my bank to expect an incoming wire of $3,431,764.34 very soon 

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

There is a 12S bonus, so the AF says yes. My opinion is that all bonuses should have been open to free agents from the start rather than just FY17 UFT-expiring folks, so while I'm glad they're adjusting for some bonus tiers, I'd like to see that apply across the board. 

[Longhorn15]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

People need to realize there is more outside the AF than just the airlines.  I know of several former Nav/WSOs that got out and are working for Fortune 500 companies making more than a commercial pilot ever will, though they do work more than half the month.

The cost to train an F-15E WSO is only different from pilots in UPT vs UNT and a few TR sorties in the B-course.  Everything else is the same, for the millions invested a financial incentive makes sense to retain 12Fs.  Especially the instructor corps that is badly undermanned, but since AFPC doesn't see the difference between an MQ student and an evaluator, they say their manning is fine, undermanned, but fine.  

The real issue here is when people say it isn't about the money, they mean it isn't just about the money.  Now that the AF has decided to use money as a show of relative value, the 12Fs are rightfully feeling extremely undervalued compared to us vaunted 11Fs.  This crisis has a lot of push and pull factors.  The airline pull may not be there, but there is certainly the AF push of 60-hr workweeks, lack of mission focus, endless queep and the joke of mission support.  

I'm frankly surprised we get any WSOs to stay past their initial commitment.  Since most are still under 30 when their commitment is up, I'd bail and go get a top-tier education and kill it in the business world.  

[BFM this]

NSFW pics in 3, 2...

[HossHarris]

4!=4x3x2x1=24

math nerd joke. 

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, gearpig said:

What is a tight platform?

Poor choice of words for a well-aligned INS. Standing by for NSFW pics to illustrate my point. 

[pawnman]

12 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

24?

No.  4.  1,2,3...4.  Only one at Dyess.

 

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

We do a similar job to the BUFF EWO and the F-15E WSO in the B-1.  We run the radar and the Sniper pod, lase the GBU-54s into the movers, talk to the JTACs, and running the jamming/chaff/flare/decoy systems.

A bigger picture thought is this, though...think about all those staff jobs and deployments that require a rated officer.  As you draw down 12X out of the Air Force, it necessarily means more 11X have to fill those staff billets/deployments/taskers.  Just food for thought.

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

WSOs are bailing from my community at an even greater rate than pilots.  Usually at the same point as well...about 10 years.  Turns out, there are plenty of jobs on the outside with someone who has aviation experience, an electronic warfare background, and a security clearance.

[Lord Ratner]

WSOs are bailing from my community at an even greater rate than pilots.  Usually at the same point as well...about 10 years.  Turns out, there are plenty of jobs on the outside with someone who has aviation experience, an electronic warfare background, and a security clearance.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering. Then it all adds up. They should be giving you bonuses, so of course they aren't.

[SurelySerious]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

No.  4.  1,2,3...4.  Only one at Dyess.

 

 

8 hours ago, HossHarris said:

4!=4x3x2x1=24

math nerd joke. 

Lighten up. 

[Mojo]

On 8/4/2017 at 0:10 PM, nsplayr said:

The bonus PSDM was corrected again today (change 3) and now includes bonus options for non-contracted and contract-expired aviators. Maybe someone out there is listening finally...

The other big change is that those 11R & 11H Early Enrollee pilots (who are eligible for the Bonus in FY17 but signed the paperwork in FY16) will now be allowed to sign for the new/higher bonus amount without incurring the additional one year ADSC that SAF/GC was demanding.  Whoever is working in 11R/11H at A3 deserves all the handles of Jack that they are about to receive for fixing the "Bonus Shenanigans" for these pilots.