Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[MooseAg03]

That is equivalent to 3rd year pay at the airline, assuming you work 15 days a month.  And you’d still have no control over your life (179s, 365s, PCS, RPA, etc).
 

We had the same conversation about how much we could do with an extra $4k per month after taxes. However, is it worth screwing up our plans to separate and have some stability in our lives knowing I would just wind up getting out in 2 years when I get the 365 notification? Absolutely not.

[username]

On 4/21/2018 at 6:26 AM, hindsight2020 said:

AFRC AGR bonus for FY18 is 35K/yr throttable between 1 thru 3 year contracts, no apparent discount for renewal contract versus initial, which is a change from previous years. Also, everybody gets the 35K up to 24 YAS, which was the other big change. ART bonus is 18K/yr with one year minimum to a maximum contract length to 25YAS.

All in all, thanks for the free money Blue, but it's not changing the calculus of those who are intent on getting airline jobs. Once they get the airline job, they'll cash this bonus, but not a day before. Not sure how this changes anything in the AFRC. The TR invol IA are absolutely killing morale and retention down here, fix that instead. There's no pay problem here (well, TRs getting their flight pay still jacked up is a problem), only a QOL one, and its costing them the kitty, just like the regAF.

As to them going to a dedicated career field incentive pay on a year to year float index, to the tune of 6K/mo increase over today's water line? ROFL. You guys crack me up. 

 

 

Any idea if you can stop the FY17 AGR bonus and sign a new FY18 one (more $$$)? 

[Guardian]

No way they let you unless it’s built in to the FY18 bonus and the AF gets something extra out of it.

[Bergman]

11 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

We had the same conversation about how much we could do with an extra $4k per month after taxes. However, is it worth screwing up our plans to separate and have some stability in our lives knowing I would just wind up getting out in 2 years when I get the 365 notification? Absolutely not.

Agreed.  Maybe I’m just getting old, but the idea of more money to spend...in a place I didn’t choose to live, and getting deposited while I’m away from home for months on end AGAIN, all the while working for narrow minded leadership that doesn’t value my effort, just isn’t worth it.

The fact the airlines offer significantly better stability and also the same, or possibly much higher, salary makes this a no-brainer.

I will say I remember leaving AD and the fear of the unknown.  It took a couple years to realize that yes, I can say NO to things, I can live wherever I want, and my life can be about things other than work.

[i.o.w.a]

23 hours ago, ColoradoAviator said:

6,000 per month x 12 months x 12471 pilots = $897,912,000.  Also know as $900 million or just shy of $1 billion.  No way in hell Congress approves this or even half this amount for more senior folks

The $6k a month is only paid to those after their UPT commitment is up, so the number is less than 12,471 pilots. We could probably find the right number in CH's "USAF is Screwed" thread and the good idea fairy slides.

I'd guess for the price of one F-35 a year it could happen. So I agree it isn't going to happen...

[HossHarris]

They don’t give career field  incentive pay to doctors AFTER their commitment is up.....

[Majestik Møøse]

As much money as that looks like, it’s way less than training their replacements.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

They don’t give career field  incentive pay to doctors AFTER their commitment is up.....

Aren’t doctors already doctors (for the most part) when they get here?

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, AlphaMikeFoxtrot said:

Aren’t doctors already doctors (for the most part) when they get here?

The AF still pays for many AF doctors' med school which incurs a commitment so not that much different than pilots.

[hindsight2020]

On 4/22/2018 at 6:10 PM, username said:

Any idea if you can stop the FY17 AGR bonus and sign a new FY18 one (more $$$)? 

 

u fvcking new, right? Cuz that's most fvcking new guy thing to ask I've heard this month. Just letting ya know. Return to Go do not collect $200 for you.

[HeyWatchThis]

On 4/22/2018 at 5:35 PM, hindsight2020 said:

I dunno. It's part of the AvB FY18 AFRC bonus announcement on myPers, under Tier 2. But it's pretty clear it's a bonus contract, not a permanent raise to the 558 SSR tables. Payable at the anniversary of every full year accomplished (no credit for partial years accomplished) and can be agreed between one and whatever years you want, not to exceed 25YAS. Some other provisions in there I didn't care to read. But it's on mypers. 

 

Looked it up this morning and for anyone else wondering......It is an ART bonus of $18k that is separate from the current 25% incentive bonus currently in place.  It requires you to be past your UPT commitment and less than 24 YAS.  Supposedly the 25% is going away very soon to be replaced with whatever your locality pay is so in my case, I am getting a ~7% cut from what I am making right now (our locality is 17.65% and I am not eligible for the ART bonus due to my UPT commitment)....I'm surprised they limited the ART bonus to guys outside their UPT commitment because my UPT commitment has 0 impact on whether I stay and ART or go airlines where-as another $18k/yr would entice me to stay around more when it's on top of the permanent raise....

[di1630]

The $6k a month is only paid to those after their UPT commitment is up, so the number is less than 12,471 pilots. We could probably find the right number in CH's "USAF is Screwed" thread and the good idea fairy slides.
I'd guess for the price of one F-35 a year it could happen. So I agree it isn't going to happen...

Someone getting $1k per month flight pay plus the $35k bonus is already getting $4,000ish per month.

Let’s say 50% of the ~12k Pilots are eligible for the $2k bump = 6,000 Pilots x $2,000 x 12 mos = $144 million extra to budget for.

Doable when you think it can save training costs, that pays for itself if you retain 20-30 11F’s for a few years.

Rough pilot math but I’m not sure it’s so far fetched. That would put a 15yr O-4 at about $190k gross assuming a $1,750-2k BAH for garden spots like UPT bases.

I think it has potential. The real key is getting that experience to stay from 12-20 where the extra bump + pension will outweigh the airlines pay wise.....assuming we unf-ck lifestyle.

[mcbush]

On 4/20/2018 at 10:42 AM, LookieRookie said:

The bonus/flight pay is going away and to be replaced with professional pay FY20 ala doctors.

...

The example (separate from VCSAF) given was a major at the end of his UPT ADSC would be making around $6K PER Month additional right now.

The original explanation from LookieRookie was that this was a $6k bump on top of what's currently offered rather than just a $2k boost. Not sure if that example included the current bonus or not, though.

[hindsight2020]

1 minute ago, mcbush said:

The original explanation from LookieRookie was that this was a $6k bump on top of what's currently offered rather than just a $2k boost. Not sure if that example included the current bonus or not, though.

Negative, this was in lieu of the current flight pay structure.

[mcbush]

Copy that it's a replacement in lieu of the current system, but the word "additional" in Rookie's post suggested to me that dudes would come out $6k ahead compared to the current status quo, rather than $2k like di1630 used in his math above. 

Also copy that we're splitting hairs on RUMINT that may never see the light of day or that Big Blue may change its mind again by tomorrow, so who knows?

[username]

20 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

 

u fvcking new, right? Cuz that's most fvcking new guy thing to ask I've heard this month. Just letting ya know. Return to Go do not collect $200 for you.

Really?  Why so emotional?  Only affects me $5k/year, but worth asking.  Thanks for contributing zero.

[SFG]

3 hours ago, mcbush said:

Copy that it's a replacement in lieu of the current system, but the word "additional" in Rookie's post suggested to me that dudes would come out $6k ahead compared to the current status quo, rather than $2k like di1630 used in his math above. 

Also copy that we're splitting hairs on RUMINT that may never see the light of day or that Big Blue may change its mind again by tomorrow, so who knows?

Based on the Secretary and Chief's testimony in Congress today... total RUMINT.

Maybe the AF figured out they could increase retention by floating bonus rumors for future FYs. Smart!

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/hearings/18-04-24-posture-of-the-department-of-the-air-force

I thought the entire thing was interesting for a few different reasons, but to zero in on the retention part you care about, the commitee said something to the effect of, "2000 pilots short... wah wah, wah wah wah wah." Chief replies, "Pilots joined to fly and we are increasing their flying hours to make that happen. We've also got QOL and Quality of Service initiatives... wah wah wah." Towards the end of the entire hearing, the committee says, "Thank you for your testimony... wah wah wah... now we understand that retaining pilots in the Air Force is not about the money and pilots just want to be pilots. Thank you for thanking us for helping you help them improve their quality of service in that area... wah wah wah."

Or something like that.

[WAG]

20 minutes ago, Klepto said:

Towards the end of the entire hearing, the committee says, "Thank you for your testimony... wah wah wah... now we understand that retaining pilots in the Air Force is not about the money and pilots just want to be pilots. 

Well that’s the response you are going to get when you gather ten junior grade mouthpieces to testify before Congress that “it’s not about the money.”  You would need an “inception” to remove that mindset from Congress at this point. 

[Majestik Møøse]

From the testimony: “This budget boosts pipeline capacity, expands pilot training and addresses experience shortfalls, continues incentive pay and bonuses, improves administrative support at the squadron level, and funds flying hours to executable levels.”

Continues, not increases. I refuse to believe that Air Force leadership doesn’t understand market capitalism. I also refuse to believe that they can’t see the immense cost savings involved in not having to train replacements to backfill departing pilots. I really think it’s as simple as bureaucratic pride and not wanting to cede organizational control and influence to the line pilot peons.

[SFG]

51 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

From the testimony: “This budget boosts pipeline capacity, expands pilot training and addresses experience shortfalls, continues incentive pay and bonuses, improves administrative support at the squadron level, and funds flying hours to executable levels.”

Continues, not increases. I refuse to believe that Air Force leadership doesn’t understand market capitalism. I also refuse to believe that they can’t see the immense cost savings involved in not having to train replacements to backfill departing pilots. I really think it’s as simple as bureaucratic pride and not wanting to cede organizational control and influence to the line pilot peons.

I think it is significant to note that the quote above is just a drop in the bucket from the written testimony they submitted beforehand, not actually what was said.

Neither incentive pay nor bonuses were mentioned in the verbal testimony. They only discussed QOL/QOS initiatives and increasing flight hours. It was definitely intentional that they omitted any talk about money. Judging by the commitee's response at the end, I think they got the point that they wanted them to get. That is... Pilots don't want money. They want to fly. And these initiatives will fix the pilot shortage.

I do think they understand market capitalism. They also communicated quite clearly that they do not like the 1500/750-hour rule "which other countries do not have," and welcomed the committee's support with respect to that and other national pilot training initiatives. They're not dumb.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Klepto

[Guardian]

. They're not dumb.

Yes they are. Or we wouldn’t be here or anything close to here.

[SFG]

18 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Yes they are. Or we wouldn’t be here or anything close to here.

I see your point, so to rephrase... closing the door to the airlines by lobbying for the elimination of the 1500/750-hour rule and for increased national pilot training throughput is a shrewd move.

[FourFans]

15 hours ago, Klepto said:

I see your point, so to rephrase... closing the door to the airlines by lobbying for the elimination of the 1500/750-hour rule and for increased national pilot training throughput is a shrewd move.

...and foolishly short sighted.  They'll just open the flood gates a little wider.  Just because all the lifeboats are full doesn't mean I'm staying on the Titanic.  On the other end of the pipeline, kids wanting to fly are closely watching how this all plays out.  No one wants to join an organization that doesn't respect and care for its people. 

If it were me as a college student right now, I'd be figuring out how to get picked up with the Guard/Reserve folks while I pursue an airline career.  Get your mil flying and chase the airlines too.  Way more attractive than deploy, deploy, deploy, pass over, try and screw you on the way out.

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by FourFans130
inglesh fail

[bronxbomber252]

Was given this with word that the official announcement will be today:

[SFG]

3 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

...and foolishly short sighted.  They'll just open the flood gates a little wider.  Just because all the lifeboats are full doesn't mean I'm staying on the Titanic.  On the other end of the pipeline, kids wanting to fly are closely watching how this all plays out.  No one wants to join an organization that doesn't respect and care for its people. 

If it were me as a college student right now, I'd be figuring out how to get picked up with the Guard/Reserve folks while I pursue an airline career.  Get your mil flying and chase the airlines too.  Way more attractive than deploy, deploy, deploy, pass over, try and screw you on the way out.

 

Maybe shortsighted. Maybe not.

I can agree with everything else you said and I only recommend Guard (and only Guard) to pilot hopefuls.

I just think that we would all call someone stupid if they were cracking eggs over a frying pan while we were expecting them to be preparing pizza.

Let’s face it. These are thoughtful, well-educated individuals. They are not stupid. But, it has become clear that they simply don’t have the same end-game or goals in mind. They’re making an omelette.

No matter how much we want pizza (my number has always been 76k to match airline pay), they aren’t doing it. Not because they are stupid. It’s an emotional move to underestimate the other team’s intelligence.

Not that you called them stupid directly, but it’s been happening a lot.

I’ve come to accept that they’ve determined that they don’t need us as much as we think. They have determined that their actions will result in a solution that is good enough. And they’ve determined they don’t need us. It is apparent that they think enough will stay from what they have planned.

Seeing as they have plans to shut the flood gates by lobbying to rescind the 1500/750 hour rule and increase pilot training in 50 different ways from Sunday I’ve personally concluded that they’ve found it more attainable to solve the Airline shortage, which they see as the root cause of our shortage... and that will be good enough. It’s a shrewd move. They’re going to end the airline hiring spree, flanking us on the left while we’re all looking right and telling them they suck.

Plus, not all my pilot friends can apparently do math or care about being deployed 200+ days a year then coming home to queep... or single.

I can’t call the AF shortsighted pertaining to this newest leadership team just yet. I think they have cards up their sleeve we don’t see.

It would behoove us to each worry about our own smartest move and less about theirs... walking with our feet instead of stomping around in fits. Insulting their intelligence insinuates that they don’t understand what they are doing. But they do. They’re not dumb. They know what they are doing. They just don’t care about the same things you do and they may just have a different end-game in mind.

And when you walk with your feet, don’t assume they will care. You’ve got to do it for you... not to stick it to the man. They will thank you for your service, but they will never care. That’s OK. They’re not stupid. They’ve got plans. Make sure you do too, in or out.

It’s like a bad breakup. We don’t want to be the crazy ex. It’s not flattering. Let’s just move on.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Klepto