Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[RedEye1911]

17 hours ago, Ryder1587 said:

Here’s a serious question.  Why would someone even stay Active Duty after their initial commitment ?  What draw is there ?  I get it for the people who want to lead and are desiring O-6 and beyond. But you can even do that in the Reserves and Guard.  Why would not everyone try to get an AGR gig and pick where you want to live , get the bonus , and have a say in your life ?  I seriously don’t get it.  

Fear is the #1 reason I've heard.

Most academy and ROTC bros have never had a job outside of the Air Force and are afraid of not having a guaranteed government paycheck.

Another reason is that people can't do math. Zero people make more money by taking the bonus and staying in vs. leaving for an airline. The bonus is only for people that would stay in any way and for those that can't add.

[artvandelay43201]

19 minutes ago, RedEye1911 said:

Fear is the #1 reason I've heard.

Most academy and ROTC bros have never had a job outside of the Air Force and are afraid of not having a guaranteed government paycheck.

Another reason is that people can't do math. Zero people make more money by taking the bonus and staying in vs. leaving for an airline. The bonus is only for people that would stay in any way and for those that can't add.

Right, because OTS guys are the only experienced people outside of the Air Force. 

[tac airlifter]

18 hours ago, Ryder1587 said:

Here’s a serious question.  Why would someone even stay Active Duty after their initial commitment ?  What draw is there ?  

For me, the job AD offered was much better.  When it stopped being fun, I left.  But AGR never appealed to me because I couldn't achieve the same professional goals.  

[Scooter14]

 
Hopefully your mileage varies but it’s not often that easy. Whereas staying AD is easy and safe for a lot of folks. Don’t necessarily think that’s the best reason to stay AD, but not everyone that stays is an idiot and deserves to be shit on. 

Back about 7-8 years ago in my ANG unit we experienced what became known locally as the “Techsodus”…a mass exit of many of our Air Reserve Technician pilots to seemingly greener airline pastures.

A growing bias against the full-time techs took shape. “Dude, how can you stay a Tech? Being a Tech SUUUCKS”

A lot of young guys got swept up in the wave and followed the older techs out the door and it definitely hurt our ability to do business.

One of the DSGs made an observation one day after overhearing these conversations at drill. He said something along the lines of “you guys understand that, in order to exist as a Guard unit, we actually need some people to stay full time right? Like…if EVERYONE goes to the airline then nobody will be left here to build a schedule, create training plans, run a Stan/Eval program…so maybe just consider that as you run down the hallway talking about how much being a fulltimer sucks to all the young guys that look up to you…”

I feel like the same thing is happening today. There is so much hate on the mil meme sites and it’s all a one-sided “ F*** Active Duty! The bonus is for chumps! Come to the Guard and get your line number! If you don’t you’re stupid!”

But…the less Active Duty we have, the less Big AF is able to man UFT and FTU training, deployment taskings, headquarters manning, etc, etc and that hurts the ARC’s ability to train and equip which in turn makes it harder to be a DSG/airline guy.

Bottom line - the airlines are a great deal, but it’s not for everyone and if someone’s beliefs, goals or family situation dictates that it’s better to stay on Active Duty, they shouldn’t automatically be vilified for that decision.

Full Disclosure - I was Active Duty for ~8 years, Guard for 20 as an ART and as a DSG on and off orders.

*Edited to add my censored F bomb back in for effect

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk on

[Runr6730]

42 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

I feel like the same thing is happening today. There is so much hate on the mil meme sites and it’s all a one-sided “ Active Duty! The bonus is for chumps! Come to the Guard and get your line number! If you don’t you’re stupid!”

 

This.  
 

The loudest voices on the mil meme sites are all echoing the same negative sentiments…”AD sucks, if you stay past your AD commitment you’re an idiot.”  The truth is YMMV.  Personally, when I came up for the bonus I was loving USAF life.  I’d just spent 4 years overseas (a unique opportunity AD affords) and was on staff doing a job I found very fulfilling.  We’ve lived all over the world, flown some amazing missions, met some amazing lifelong friends, and ultimately found where we wanted to settle down in a place I never would’ve imagined living otherwise. Is AD perfect?  Absolutely not, but in general it’s provided me and my family a life filled with adventure.  Don’t make a decision on the bonus or getting out based on what the loudest voices on the internet are espousing…do what you think is best for you and your family. 

[nsplayr]

3 hours ago, BeefBears said:

BOP flat out will not work in AFSOC. The bonus ADSC is the best way to ensure Cannon manning without a bunch of 7-day opts. 

Personally, I didn't take the bonus and still plan on 20 years AD. The extra money isn't worth having my hands tied. I've seen the AF (and more specifically AFSOC) do some really shitty things to good dudes and they just had to eat the shit sandwich because they took the bonus. 

Don't take the bonus, be a free agent, and leave the reserves/guard/civilian door open even if you don't end up using it. 

Amen to this! When you have three bases that are pretty great (Kadena, Mildenhall, Hurlburt) and one that's located in the smelly asshole of America (Cannon), it becomes real hard to honor BOP when you indeed desire to have a full-up Wing at CVS. Who are you gonna send there, all first-tour guys? Can't do that. Bonus takers who you have by the balls like we do now? Oh wait, BOP...yea that's gonna get jettisoned extremely quickly for needs of the Air Force.

Fun story...I was sent to CVS even after 7-day opt! There's an asterisk in that program that says more of less, "Yea but we can also just waive the 24 month retainability clause and send you anyways. Good luck!" Just in case anyone doubts that AFSOC will bone you in the ass raw and repeadetly. In fact, many have at times called the command ASFOC, and personally I think it's fitting.

Good times...I was there for 11 months and was a lame duck with a separation date the first time I stepped into my new SQ/CC's office. PCS'd across the country on Uncle Sam's dime twice in less than 12 months, great use of taxpayer resources for some random, replaceable cog line-dawg O3 there guys!

Don't get me wrong, flying AFSOC missions was amazing and I wouldn't trade the experience for any other. I had a blast, made great friends, killed lots of bad guys, saw the world (well, many of the world's worst places...), etc. BUT, the command's HR policies are atrocious and drive so many good people out of the service entirely rather than accommodating reasonable alternatives for what folks want to do with their careers. Having Cannon doesn't help, I full acknowledge that, and that's our of AFSOC/A1's hands entirely, but they also don't do themselves a single favor ever IMHO. And oh yea, this new fangled BOP is just gonna blow hot air up people's behinds who don't read the fine print and they'll just get sent to Cannon anyways.

[HubZemke]

36 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Who are you gonna send there, all first-tour guys?

Long time lurker crawling out from his rock to finally post…I’d rather be there for my first tour than later in life. Also, if AFSOC stopped treating anyone at Cannon as a second class citizen maybe there wouldn’t be such a stigma associated with the assignment. 
 

I’m also amazed how many times I’ve been asked to go back when there are dudes/dudettes who have never left the salt lyfe…

[Skitzo]

I’m really interested to see what happens in a few years when situations develop like Osprey dudes taking the bonus and choose OCONUS/Hurlburt to avoid Cannon. 
 
 

No more CVs at Hurby soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rescuebubba]

Does anyone have any info on the Demo program that’s supposed to get released this summer? My ADSC expires in October 23, so I’m not eligible for the legacy program.  
 

Looking at the eligibility requirements for the demo program based on the 37 USC 334, you need to have no more than three years but no less than one left on your ADSC, so I’m not eligible for that either. They also said in the press release they wouldn’t be offering the legacy AvB in FY24.

So…am I just hosed and won’t have an opportunity for the bonus? I know I’m in the minority, but the money actually does make a difference to me in terms of staying in. 

[SocialD]

22 hours ago, nsplayr said:

YMMV significantly, but in my unit among AGR pilots, the one with the most recent hire date was 2015, and he's the squadron patch. Other than him, the "newest" guy who is an AGR was probably hired in like 2007 as an enlisted dude. You can't just walk into an AGR around here as much as many folks would like to!

Still waiting patiently for someone to die or retire, as god intended for his wayward children the Guard bums 😅

 

 

Then there is my squadron where, for the last 4 or 5 years, we'd ONLY hire you if you were willing to take an AGR gig (we don't technicians anymore) for 2-3 years.  We had no room for DSG's.  Lately, we tend to turn back nearly a years worth of orders every year (or let other positions on base use them)....that's after giving a years worth of orders to guest help for alert.  I think we're on track to do the same this year as well.  Turns out, when you live close to a major hub of an air line in which 40% of your squadron is employed, unless they're within 5 of their 20, few guys want long term orders.

 

 

10 hours ago, Runr6730 said:

I’d just spent 4 years overseas (a unique opportunity AD affords) and was on staff doing a job I found very fulfilling.  

 

 

This isn't to take away from your post, I'm truly happy to hear guys are enjoying AD.  It's more to add clarity about opportunities in the ANG.  Overseas opportunities appear to be aplenty right now in the ANG.  We have one guy who will likely spend 3ish years in USAFE on MPA days to get him across the finish line to a retirement.  We have another guy taking a few months of orders in Hickam, and we were told it could be up to year (possibly indefinite orders) if wanted.  I know 4 other dudes working long term orders OCONUS (mostly USAFE).  There seems to be a bunch of other full time CONUS orders opportunities as well (cough...brabus...). 

 

In the ANG, you also have the BAO gig, which can be a legit opportunity for the family to experience a sleepy overseas assignment.  If I hadn't been trying to get hours ASAP for the airlines, I'd have gladly done the BAO gig for our state partner...2-3 years in Budapest doesn't sound all that bad.  I know another guy who did 2-3 years in Tallinn, Estonia who had a ball.  Having spent 3+ months in Tallinn, I'd have gladly spent 3+ years there.  

[SocialD]

12 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

Back about 7-8 years ago in my ANG unit we experienced what became known locally as the “Techsodus”…a mass exit of many of our Air Reserve Technician pilots to seemingly greener airline pastures.

...words words words...

Bottom line - the airlines are a great deal, but it’s not for everyone and if someone’s beliefs, goals or family situation dictates that it’s better to stay on Active Duty, they shouldn’t automatically be vilified for that decision.

 

 

I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.  But having lived both lives, I understand how much better it can be.  When I was full time, I didn't realize how much it consumed my life.  We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.

 

I don't shit on them for staying, you're right, someone has to do it...or they could rotate to the airline then back onto orders as desired.  Shit will get done eventually.  However, I'll certainly show them how much better my life is now vs. when I was full time.  Lots of squadron mates who said they'd never go to the airlines, are now at the airlines and are kicking themselves for not going earlier.  

[herkbum]

 
 

 
In the ANG, you also have the BAO gig, which can be a legit opportunity for the family to experience a sleepy overseas assignment.  If I hadn't been trying to get hours ASAP for the airlines, I'd have gladly done the BAO gig for our state partner...2-3 years in Budapest doesn't sound all that bad.  I know another guy who did 2-3 years in Tallinn, Estonia who had a ball.  Having spent 3+ months in Tallinn, I'd have gladly spent 3+ years there.  

I did a 2 year BAO stint in Sofia and loved it. I also kept flying but had to drop a few quals to maintain currency. Also met my wife there, luckily she’s an American. I always recommend the tour to folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Mark1]

4 hours ago, SocialD said:

We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.

I see this sentiment on BaseOps frequently.  This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

If you go from Sq/CC to legacy copilot, then yeah.  But they aren't the same thing.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mark1

[Neverupgrade]

3 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I see this sentiment on BaseOps frequently.  This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

If you go from Sq/CC to legacy copilot, then yeah.  But they aren't the same thing.

I can’t second this enough. I’m a dsg captain and commercial GC. The bs I have to deal with daily in my civilian gig is leaps and bounds worse than what I hear my AGR/Tech friends complain about. 
 

I know the grass is always greener, but I’m jumping on an AGR/Tech gig first chance I can. 

[Scooter14]

 
I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.  But having lived both lives, I understand how much better it can be.  When I was full time, I didn't realize how much it consumed my life.  We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.
 
I don't shit on them for staying, you're right, someone has to do it...or they could rotate to the airline then back onto orders as desired.  Shit will get done eventually.  However, I'll certainly show them how much better my life is now vs. when I was full time.  Lots of squadron mates who said they'd never go to the airlines, are now at the airlines and are kicking themselves for not going earlier.  

100%.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

I also didn’t realize how much being a fulltimer was consuming me until I left…and my wife and kids told me how much happier I was when I got back from trips. That was eye opening for me as well.

I’m happy to talk to Active Duty folks about the Guard. I’m happy to talk to Full timers about the airlines. My QOL definitely improved when I went AD->ANG and even more so when I went ART->Airlines.

I just do my best to stay objective and not make them feel like their decision is “wrong” if it doesn’t agree with how I personally have done it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DirkDiggler]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:30 PM, Ryder1587 said:

Here’s a serious question.  Why would someone even stay Active Duty after their initial commitment ?  What draw is there ?  I get it for the people who want to lead and are desiring O-6 and beyond. But you can even do that in the Reserves and Guard.  Why would not everyone try to get an AGR gig and pick where you want to live , get the bonus , and have a say in your life ?  I seriously don’t get it.  

Everyone's circumstances are different.

  I'm past 20 years and plan on continuing to stay till 22 (with an exception for possible continued AFSOC 3rd floor dicknannagans).  Serving my country is still a big reason for me getting out of bed every morning.  I genuinely like what I do, what I fly, and the people I serve with.  I have no complaints about pay (I think O-5 pay is pretty good compared to what I grew up with and my wife has a 6 figure job).  Money isn't a primary motivator for me.  

  There's always shitty parts to any job and I get the military is not an easy life.  That said, the AF has afforded me opportunities and experiences I don't believe I would've gotten on the civilian side.  The Guard/Reserve never appealed to me.  I feel like I contribute where I'm at and I have good bosses at the Sq level.  Honestly overall I'm happy with my lot and don't see any reason to pursue different pastures at this time.

One guy's perspective.

[BroncoEN]

Still (official) crickets on the ANG bonus, anyone else receive any official traffic? 

[HookEmAll]

2 hours ago, BroncoEN said:

Still (official) crickets on the ANG bonus, anyone else receive any official traffic? 

It is released. People at my base are signing as of 6 June. Go beat up metaphorically on your FSS for answers. They let our guys backdate to 6 June. 

[Pooter]

The mission and personal sacrifices associated with the mission arent what's driving people out of the Air Force en masse. If you ask, 90+ percent of flyers will tell you they love their mission and it's what gets them up in the morning. It's the mountain of queep and endless administrivia hoops we jump through on a daily basis that sours people on the Air Force. Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 
 

I worked a civilian engineering job for 5 years prior to Air Force life and it was leaps and bounds more focused on my primary duty than the Air Force is focused on me being a CMR CAF pilot.  So we'll play a quick game of civilian world never-have-I-ever. 
 

Never have I ever in my civilian job:

-had a computer that takes 20 minutes to log onto email

-been voluntold to attend and organize social functions in my off time

-DRMO literally anything

-submit my co-workers for 15 categories of awards every quarter with nazi-regime level strictness of the award submissions

-use 1/2 and 1/4 spaces in a document to adhere to writing standards

-do HR functions onboarding/off boarding/ discipline/punishment

-had scheduled PTO cancelled causing me to eat plane ticket and lodging costs

-had my company open a credit card in my name, stipulate what I can use it for, threaten me for not using it, and withhold payment based on an archaic voucher system managed by literal retards.

-had basic structural issues with our office building go un-fixed for years

-been put in charge of entire programs wildly outside my job description

-pulled weeds, mowed grass, and plowed snow around my office building

-done 69 annual CBTs to maintain "readiness"

to name just a very very few.  
 

Most of this stuff just sounds like minor gripes and complaints but the list is endless.  If you have significant private sector experience prior to entering or a spouse you can compare stories with its very very easy to see the insanity of all this crap.  Most dudes won't get that perspective until getting out.  

[SocialD]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:27 AM, Mark1 said:

This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

 

 

We're talking different sacrifices here.  Not too many of my high school/college friends who went into the civilian professional world have had their company send them away for months on end.  Most can't even wrap their minds around leaving their family for two weeks at a time, let alone doing it multiple times a year...not long after being gone for 4-6 months.  They rarely (if ever) miss a holiday at home, let alone multiple in a row.  I don't know a single one of them that missed their daughters wedding (not me, but a close friend) because their company sent them short notice on a 6 month business trip and wouldn't excuse them or try to find them a replacement.  Yes we signed up for this, but they're still sacrifices that most in the civilian world will never understand.  That, along with all of what pooter said above, wear on you.  

Edited June 10, 2023 by SocialD

[StoleIt]

44 minutes ago, Pooter said:

The mission and personal sacrifices associated with the mission arent what's driving people out of the Air Force en masse. If you ask, 90+ percent of flyers will tell you they love their mission and it's what gets them up in the morning. It's the mountain of queep and endless administrivia hoops we jump through on a daily basis that sours people on the Air Force. Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 

Mostly agree, but ops tempo and having a predictable schedule also are huge for quality of life. I could not have sustained my life as a tanker toad from 2014-2017. Min dwell between deployments and then red flags shoe horned in between, plus other crap crushed me.

And, even today, if I don't have approved leave on the books then nothing is safe or sacred. There are still many communities running their people to the breaking point.

[Scooter14]

Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 
 

This was my causal factor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danger41]

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

[UDEL09]

47 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

A lot of 10-12 hour days, last minute weather Evacs, last minute cross country’s to get Stan to graduate on time, and sq leadership that oftentimes caved to OG level pressure to continue to produce more at the expense of IP quality of life. 

[Standby]

58 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

I think most dudes shit talk it because they haven’t actually done it. They’ve heard about it from their buddies friends sisters uncle and perpetuate lies. It’s a daily grind, but a lot of the MWS ancillaries simply don’t exist. There is no pre-deployment WSMR/NAWS/WSEP trip…no flag to participate in…nothing. Sure, you triple turn and fly XC, but you’re smoking crack if you think that keeps you TDY more than an MWS unit.

To take this one step further…I’d wager that 87.69% of the folks who drag XL through the mud couldn’t even find it on the map, let alone have been there. Is Del Rio a garden spot? Not even close. But there are people who complain that the sand in the FL Panhandle was too fine and difficult to wash out of their crusty ass cracks.

@UDEL09I know this is going to sound harsh, but allow me to play you a classical piece on the worlds smallest violin.