Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Warrior]

Chuck would you say it's due to the need to be broad (Phoenix programs etc) or the fact that the WOs have been low density due to the fact that the MAF WIC has only been around a little over a decade? Right now 3 of 4 squadrons at McChord, several squadrons at Charleston, Hickman and I believe Elmo and Altus all have WOs as commanders. Talking to my buddies in the Herc world several of their SQ/CCs are also WOs (or were at least as of a couple months ago). It seems that the program has started to reach a maturity level that "should" start producing more WO GOs than just Smokey. 
Also Mcchord has an Ops Leader of the Quarter award but it doesn't go above the Group Level and seems to rank below JCGO/CGO/FGO (all which require volunteer/self improvement).

The MAF WIC is not the 57th WPS.

The 509th and 29th also get to play. The C130 WIC is the oldest-they had their 20th anniversary class this spring.

You're partially correct about the MAF WO community just beginning to get old enough to have more GOs (Otey is another-it's not just Robinson).

The WO discussion becomes a chicken and egg argument very quickly because AMC values Phoenix programs much more than WIC.


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[brickhistory]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 5:59 PM, Chuck17 said:

I'll bite, but have to clarify a few things first.

.....good words......

 

Next let me clear up a common misconception... Colonels and low ranking GOs have far less power to affect change and make things better than you'd think. Not all colonels are equal, just as relationships (at least in public) between GOs shows that they are not all equal. (Reference: any staff, anywhere) While in some aspects their words are holy writ, in much of their daily duty they have very little power to make changes. Everyone gets a say, so consensus building logically takes time. You better get it cleared with your boss and your bosses boss and the the lawyer, etc. or else your neck is on the line... this manifests in bureaucratic delay and stagnation of decisions, at the worst case it shows up as risk aversion. Rarely are "go-do" orders so easily given, thus change is slow. This reality can be frustrating for the young.

...more good words.......

This problem is bigger than the O-6 to O-8 crowd indicted in the post above... and none of us can change it alone. You'll never push over the wall, but if you try you can find loose bricks...

Chuck

Very good thoughtful post and I'm not meaning to sh1t on it.

But...

"You better get it cleared with your boss and your bosses boss and the lawyer, etc. or else your neck is on the line..."

is actually the heart of the matter.

Many of you still playing and even some of us blue-haired Camel-smoking commissary commandos, cared deeply about getting the job done.  So much so that Big Blue took advantage of that mind-set to advance its non-mission important mission.

"Do more with less," and other things that have led to the current state of the Air Force, where the Chief of freakin' Staff FINALLY realized he and his cohort destroyed the squadron, the heart of the service.

And how did they accomplish that?  By being those self-same O-6s to O-8s, even the Lt Gen you referenced above, and saying "Yes" without any sort of rebuttal.  Any sort of "But boss, did you think of this if you take this action?" could have done wonders if there were a spine present. 

The fact that commanders aren't really that until, what, at the CCMD level is entirely each commander's fault for not saying "No," or saying "If you want that, you will lose this" or some such.  Or going placidly along with the usurpation of his/her prerogatives by a higher boss without pushing back.

If your name is on the door, you should be willing to take the fall for identifying to the emperor that his ass is hanging in the wind.  Instead, it, largely, became a system of what you wrote and I highlighted above.  If it's fly to Regensburg because we think destroying the ball-bearing factory will shorten the war, then by all means a "shut up and color" attitude is warranted.

A brisk "yes, sir!" when told to have everyone redo CBTs so the unit looks good on an inspection, not so much...

When it's all over, you will hang up the uniform.  And should you decide to shave after that, the only one that will care how you did or if you actively fought for your people, even if you lost and/or got fired for a good fight, is you looking back in the mirror.  I imagine you will do well as a sq/cc and I really do wish you well.  I believe you most likely will try your best to look after your people while trying to accomplish your mission.  Are you willing to fall on your sword for something?  If so, what?  I'm not looking for a public answer nor offering therapy.  Just that I believe it takes that X 1,000 for Big Blue to start to course correct.  Otherwise, we continue on the "Yes, sir" no matter what the lunacy trajectory

I get it.  I'm not hypocritical.  Most folks here, and even in the wider Big Blue, want to do well and make the boss happy.  It's in our DNA.

Evolution can be a b1tch though if the mutation turns out badly...

I'd argue that we lost the race to the mammals and it will take another extinction-level event for the jet to pull up.

Like it always does.  But the poor schmucks who have to pay the price while that lesson is re-learned aren't gonna be thrilled.  Nor will their next of kin.

 

 

 

 

Jameson's on a Wednesday?  Yes, please...

Edited October 27, 2016 by brickhistory

[Fuzz]

17 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

I agree with you, that there 'should' be many more than Smokey in the future. I think there are some great O-5s to O-6s out there who have a serious shot at making GO from that start (the WIC). My comment is more addressing the previous obsession with breadth in the command that is now being slowly shunted. The stars are moving the conversations back towards depth due in part to the character of future mobility employment. A2AD is a thing, and even on its softer side will affect us in C2, comms, and connectivity in ways we can't yet fully comprehend due to our relative freedom of action currently. Risk Aversion is actively being addressed in the command, among many ways by bringing balance to the breadth vs depth conversations.

Dont get me wrong, breadth is valuable, if not essential to our success in the mobility enterprise. It gives commanders and staffs options - opens up possibilities for people to serve in many facets other than their primary aircraft - whether that means AMOG, C2, or simply bringing outside perspective and cross-education to another community (integration). But we've been full stop on the "breadth" for so long in AMC that expertise is short - enough to get the attention of leadership. 

And fixing that is only goodness. 

Thanks for the shout out to McChord - it's too bad that the recognition doesn't go above group level though - after all it says AIRLIFT WING in the unit title... food for thought.

Chuck

I'm noticing that conversations in the squadron bar and from leadership are turning more to expertise and that while it was always expected its now starting to take priority. Also glad to hear from another source that the issues of A2AD and risk aversion are being taken seriously.

 

1 hour ago, Warrior said:

The MAF WIC is not the 57th WPS.

The 509th and 29th also get to play. The C130 WIC is the oldest-they had their 20th anniversary class this spring.

You're partially correct about the MAF WO community just beginning to get old enough to have more GOs (Otey is another-it's not just Robinson).

The WO discussion becomes a chicken and egg argument very quickly because AMC values Phoenix programs much more than WIC.


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Forgot about the 509th and wiki has the 29th as activated in '03. Unsat for SA & google skills is acknowledged.

Also good see another WO GO from the MAF, I've never heard of him but Smokey is obvious because he's in AMC. I will say there's a noticeable shift in training focus and top cover/enabling of the squadron WOs with the current leadership at McChord. Its also a bonus when your leadership is Airdrop Qual'd and can actively participate in large package exercises.

Also agreed on the Pheonix programs from the HQ AMC perspective, although I'm not seeing very many people interested in those programs and a lot fewer Phoenix Reach guys coming into our squadron (obviously anecdotal evidence).

[RASH]

Forgot about the 509th and wiki has the 29th as activated in '03. Unsat for SA & google skills is acknowledged.
Also good see another WO GO from the MAF, I've never heard of him but Smokey is obvious because he's in AMC. I will say there's a noticeable shift in training focus and top cover/enabling of the squadron WOs with the current leadership at McChord. Its also a bonus when your leadership is Airdrop Qual'd and can actively participate in large package exercises.
Also agreed on the Pheonix programs from the HQ AMC perspective, although I'm not seeing very many people interested in those programs and a lot fewer Phoenix Reach guys coming into our squadron (obviously anecdotal evidence).

C-130 WIC stood up in 1996 under the Combat Aerial Delivery School in Little Rock. Absorbed by AMWC around 1999. FWIW, Otey was MAC/AMC as well, and the LRF WG/CC before Smokey.


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[Fifty-six & Two]

3 hours ago, RASH said:

C-130 WIC stood up in 1996 under the Combat Aerial Delivery School in Little Rock. Absorbed by AMWC around 1999. FWIW, Otey was MAC/AMC as well, and the LRF WG/CC before Smokey.


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Mini was the Wg/CC before Smokey.

[RASH]

Mini was the Wg/CC before Smokey.

I should've been more clear--Otey was before Smokey, but not immediately before.


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[Champ Kind]

Any rumblings on increase to monthly flight pay?

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

Any rumblings on increase to monthly flight pay?

The new NDAA, still awaiting signature, raises the maximum flight pay to $1000/month.  I haven't seen anything about what the Air Force plans to do with that increase.

[viper154]

11 minutes ago, pawnman said:

The new NDAA, still awaiting signature, raises the maximum flight pay to $1000/month.  I haven't seen anything about what the Air Force plans to do with that increase.

Nothing. Why would us barely hanging on between additional duties, flying, and seeing our family want more pay? We should do twice the work for half the pay and be happy god damn it!!

[Craftsman]

That's a pretty darn good assessment.


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[Fuzz]

Any takers on how bad they'll screw this up given the shit show that was/is the enlisted overhaul?

https://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2016/10/new-evaluation-system-air-force-officers-year-away/

[Seriously]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:49 AM, Fuzz said:

Chuck would you say it's due to the need to be broad (Phoenix programs etc) or the fact that the WOs have been low density due to the fact that the MAF WIC has only been around a little over a decade? Right now 3 of 4 squadrons at McChord, several squadrons at Charleston, Hickman and I believe Elmo and Altus all have WOs as commanders. Talking to my buddies in the Herc world several of their SQ/CCs are also WOs (or were at least as of a couple months ago). It seems that the program has started to reach a maturity level that "should" start producing more WO GOs than just Smokey. 

Also Mcchord has an Ops Leader of the Quarter award but it doesn't go above the Group Level and seems to rank below JCGO/CGO/FGO (all which require volunteer/self improvement).

Be careful what you wish for.... I have seen very little correlation between being a weapons officer and being a good leader. It's about 50/50. 

[Fuzz]

5 hours ago, Seriously said:

Be careful what you wish for.... I have seen very little correlation between being a weapons officer and being a good leader. It's about 50/50. 

Agreed, to be clear I want the best leaders in those position regardless of if they are a patch. I have seen it go both ways with WOs as well. But I do want to see those that are WOs and good leaders not get leveled off in career progression because AMC likes guys that are an inch deep and a mile wide in expertise (Phoenix Horizon).

[TnkrToad]

Bump--

       Funny, the FY16 Rated Retention Report still isn't posted. I can't see there being any surprises in the final take rates, but it'll be interesting to see how many pilots we lost to retirements/separations, and from which communities. Before, the narrative from GC and people of his ilk seemed to be, "no big deal--there are lots of folks who turn down the bonus, yet still remain on AD." I don't see that being the case anymore. We'll see.  

TT

[Homestar]

6 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

Bump--

       Funny, the FY16 Rated Retention Report still isn't posted. I can't see there being any surprises in the final take rates, but it'll be interesting to see how many pilots we lost to retirements/separations, and from which communities. Before, the narrative from GC and people of his ilk seemed to be, "no big deal--there are lots of folks who turn down the bonus, yet still remain on AD." I don't see that being the case anymore. We'll see.  

TT

A/TA had a seminar on the "National Pilot Shortage" this year.  Didn't address the pilot bonus that I can recall, but it was an interesting seminar nonetheless discussing some of the reasons pilots are bailing on the AF. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Homestar

[ThreeHoler]

Go on...


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[mcbush]

There really wasn't any new information presented that isn't common knowledge at this point. The highlight of the brief, IMO, was the discussion that resulted from someone calling out Lt Gen Cox, while he was in the room, for letting too many guys go in the VSP debacle during his time at HAF.

[Herk Driver]

Towards the end it looked like the pitch forks and torches were going to be brought out.


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[Ram]

There really wasn't any new information presented that isn't common knowledge at this point. The highlight of the brief, IMO, was the discussion that resulted from someone calling out Lt Gen Cox, while he was in the room, for letting too many guys go in the VSP debacle during his time at HAF.

My beef with that wasn't so much that mistakes were made, but it was more along the lines of ZERO accountability for those mistakes.

I dunno, maybe someone got an ass-chewing, but from the outside it looked like buffoonery from A1 was tolerated (or even encouraged, given the bright tones of the too-positive press releases) with no recourse for mistakes. This only solidified the mistrust for A1 around the CAF and MAF, given similar incidents (and lack of accountability) in the past.


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[Homestar]

19 hours ago, mcbush said:

There really wasn't any new information presented that isn't common knowledge at this point. The highlight of the brief, IMO, was the discussion that resulted from someone calling out Lt Gen Cox, while he was in the room, for letting too many guys go in the VSP debacle during his time at HAF.

Yeah, that was pretty good. The saddest thing was watching the Capt get stood up and dressed down for daring to suggest that there be a flying track for officers not interested in command. I felt that was unnecessarily patronizing. 

[Homestar]

19 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

Go on...


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Bottom line is that the MAF forecasts their pilot shortage to be 600+ by 2023 (I think). They can push more MAF pilots through initial which delays the inevitable. By 2023 the MAF pilot shortage will be as acute as the CAF pilot shortage is now. 

[flyusaf83]

9 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Bottom line is that the MAF forecasts their pilot shortage to be 600+ by 2023 (I think). They can push more MAF pilots through initial which delays the inevitable. By 2023 the MAF pilot shortage will be as acute as the CAF pilot shortage is now. 

So hopefully they have the forethought to up the bonus for both MAF and CAF types.  If they up just the bonus for CAF only... oh just watch the mass exodus ensue.

[Guest]

So hopefully they have the forethought to up the bonus for both MAF and CAF types.  If they up just the bonus for CAF only... oh just watch the mass exodus ensue.

This.


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[BADFNZ]

1 hour ago, flyusaf83 said:

So hopefully they have the forethought to up the bonus for both MAF and CAF types.  If they up just the bonus for CAF only... oh just watch the mass exodus ensue.

The mass exodus is going to happen either way.  I can name 2 out of ~69 pilots in my sq that are planning on staying in past their pilot training commitment.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, flyusaf83 said:

So hopefully they have the forethought to up the bonus for both MAF and CAF types.  If they up just the bonus for CAF only... oh just watch the mass exodus ensue.

They also are aware that it isn't about money.  Money doesn't hurt, but it doesn't solve the problem either.  They need to figure out how to make guys want the AF when they have solid option on the outside.  Overall, I got the feeling that while they're not blind to the current and pending shortage of pilots, they just don't have the information they need to make decisions.  It was mentioned that this will be the first year that the AF runs an exit survey for pilots.  They should have been doing that for years.