Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Dynamite]

2 hours ago, daynightindicator said:

"AFRC/ANG will be broken in 3-5 years"

Can someone please elaborate on this.

[Herk Driver]

random leadership comment:

"AFRC/ANG will be broken in 3-5 years"


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3-5 is optimistic for AFRC. I think we are within 3 years already.


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[Smokin]

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

 

Voluntary? These dudes got out for a reason. I highly doubt Joe Ex-11F wants to leave his cush job with Delta to voluntarily come back to this happy horse poop.

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A voluntary recall could get some guys back for an assignment if the AF did it right.  If a dude who is just finishing probation at an airline got an offer of his choice of bases, it could work out.  Wouldn't mess up his career at an airline unless he overstayed his 5 years mil leave.  If they offered in writing a 3 year assignment with only a 3 year ADSC to a fighter squadron in Europe with no individual non-vol TDYs (only deploy when the squadron deploys), they'd get some guys for sure and the gaining squadrons would be better for it.  Imagine how much better of a squadron it could be if the SQ/DO or SQ/CC honestly didn't give a single thought to his career after that job?

 

Problem is, the AF will just pork it away and has show itself to not be trustworthy as an organization.

[TnkrToad]

3 hours ago, Gazmo said:

MAF 100% manned? Bawahahahahahaha!

11F recalls? Nice. More airline vacancies for us ARC guys.

AFRC/ANG broken in 3-5 years.... that I agree with.

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Let's see . . .

- AD senior leaders clueless/unwilling to acknowledge MAF pilot shortfalls . . . heavy drivers feel unappreciated

- A-word hiring is huge/not going away & MAF mission is directly applicable to a-word skill sets . . . civil sector makes heavy drivers feel really appreciated (showing it through compensation packages)

- Something like half of airlift & tankers are in the AFRES/ANG . . . Guard & Reserves need AD heavy drivers, sending demand for AD heavy drivers even higher

- From what I read on here, folks already in AFRC have little desire to stay past 20 . . . Guard/Reserves need even more heavy drivers

- Folks separating from AD little prob getting hired by the airlines . . . heavy drivers don't need the Guard/Reserves

- AFRC's inability to fill taskings drives AD requirements even higher, driving up AD OPSTEMPO, which further pushes folks toward the exits

I'm sure glad Big Blue is only short on 11Fs. What could possibly go wrong?

[Bobby]

Sounds like recall to active duty on a (hopefully?) voluntary basis.

I look forward to (hopefully) receiving this phone call...and telling Big Blue exactly where to stick their "offer". Barring WWIII, you couldn't get me to go back for any amount of promises or compensation. The grass is most definitely greener out here.


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[daynightindicator]

What exactly is an 11F AD recall?

Sounded more like calling dudes and offering incentives to come back to AD rather than any kind of forceable recall.


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[bb17]

1 hour ago, Herk Driver said:

 

3-5 is optimistic for AFRC. I think we are within 3 years already.


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Doesn't sound bueno as a guy heading into AFRC...

[Jaded]

12 minutes ago, bb17 said:

Doesn't sound bueno as a guy heading into AFRC...

It's not bad for the individuals in AFRC, it's a sign that the organization itself is in trouble. My squadron went from completely healthy to unable to fill its full time positions in just 6 months. Each week a new full time guy is getting a call from the airlines and bailing for a TR spot or retiring completely. I do not know who is going to be around to run the squadron next year.

It may be the best time ever to join the AFRC if you can get into the type of position that you want. Job security should be high and progression appears to be practically unlimited.

[di1630]

Big blue will screw this up and piss off more people. People who signed the bonus a few years back willing to stay as long as they can fly operationally will be given IFF and "other" 11F billets while the return to AD guys will be given the enticing assignments to get them back which will just piss more people off. Our leadership is not skilled/smart enough to enact this correctly.


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[ThreeHoler]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/amc-gen-everhart-pilot-shortfall

tl; dr --

AMC currently short 315 pilots (4%). AFRC 7% short in MAF airframes.


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[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

AMC is currently short 315 pilots after they cooked the books by already reducing the crew ratios and sent hundreds of pilots out of the communities to get us to "100% manned". At least General Everheart was honest about the prospects of retaining those eligible to separate. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Fuzz

[tac airlifter]

Confirm AY17 bonus is 35k for 11x not just 11F?  Is this a 5 year or 9 year offering?  Haven't seen anything official.

[ClearedHot]

So glad I retired...

In many ways it is sad to watch this happen, but in a twisted sort of way it is gratifying.  I used to love the Air Force and serving, but a small group of spineless leaders sold their souls to get promoted when they could have fallen on their swords and sound the alarm.  Who knows, the outcome might have been exactly the same.  It sickens me that I put faith in some of these guys, Christ I flew with people like Rand and really believed the bullshit.  I truly hope you guys and girls don't end up as jaded as I am.

Now it feels like I am comfortably sitting on my front porch watching a kid poke the hornets nest when I told him 10 times what would happen and while I don't want anyone to suffer, I will feel a small bit of satisfaction when he gets stung.

 

[HeyWatchThis]

10 hours ago, Jaded said:

It's not bad for the individuals in AFRC, it's a sign that the organization itself is in trouble. My squadron went from completely healthy to unable to fill its full time positions in just 6 months. Each week a new full time guy is getting a call from the airlines and bailing for a TR spot or retiring completely. I do not know who is going to be around to run the squadron next year.

It may be the best time ever to join the AFRC if you can get into the type of position that you want. Job security should be high and progression appears to be practically unlimited.

We have run into the same retention issue.  The ART bonus SF50's were just processed and hitting paychecks this next round but 25% for one year is peanuts vs what a 2nd year airline dudes get.  Couple months ago an email from AFRC DO was sent out promising 1.7% FERS multiplier and locality pay separated from the 30% "specialty pay" along with a few other longer term time items that would require legislative change.  Those first two items were supposedly approved by AFRC, sent to OPM, and included in the 2017 NDAA.....

That email was sent out back in Sept or Oct.  It's been radio silence since on everything other than the one time bonus. 

**rumor warning** Nice little nugget that was dropped ealrier this week is AFRC is considering offering 1-3 yr AGR spots to ARTs who recently quit to go airline.  This is so AFRC can "retain the corporate knowledge" of their pilots due to the mass exodus they are seeing across the board.  The extra kick in the junk is that current ARTs will NOT be allowed to take the AGR orders.  So, your going to guarantee me Major pay for 3 yrs while I build seniority at my airline?  I wasn't considering airline but if they play that game that would push me out and practically every other ART other than your lifers........especially since any real talk of PERMANENTLY raising our salaries has stalled and this "on a yearly basis" BS seems to satisfy leadership for now...

[Jaded]

Anybody heard anything about the TR bonus? I thought it was unnecessary a few months ago but once our TRs hit second year pay, their exodus may start. It's getting to the point where every day an airline guy works at the unit he loses $500. It's just not sustainable. 

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

It's not just the AF.

Two days ago the USMC released a MARADMIN stating twice passed over Captains who are pilots will be automatically retained for three years unless they jump through hoops prior to January 31. Automatic three year extension to potential non-flying orders and PCS? 

Not sure whose going to hang out to man what few Hornets we have remaining.

Someone in the chain can't read United States Code, i.e., DOPMA.

Twice passed over = out unless offered continuation.

It may take a while and will screw those affected in the short-term, but the class action suit that will result should net them a nice piece of change.

Not enough to make up for not building seniority or whatever sh1t sandwich they are handed for those three years, but it will come.

I'd also be calling the sh1t out of my Congressional critters and DoD IG.  IF I wasn't promoted, twice, then the law states I must be separated unless you offer and I accept continuation.

 

Key word is accept.

Lots of lawyers around who like and know how to stick to The Man since it pays them handsomely to do so.

 

[Ulysses]

19 hours ago, daynightindicator said:

All future T-38s to fighters, non-recs to bombers

T-1 FAIPs and some directs will fill bombers

Where is this info coming from, and has something like this happened in recent memory? I wouldn't've expected to ever hear something like this. It sounds like almost a complete revamp of the tracking system.

[Duck]

It's not just the AF.
Two days ago the USMC released a MARADMIN stating twice passed over Captains who are pilots will be automatically retained for three years unless they jump through hoops prior to January 31. Automatic three year extension to potential non-flying orders and PCS? 
Not sure whose going to hang out to man what few Hornets we have remaining.

How can they do this? Wouldn't they still be allowed to deny the retainment and separate?


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[hindsight2020]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Where is this info coming from, and has something like this happened in recent memory? I wouldn't've expected to ever hear something like this. It sounds like almost a complete revamp of the tracking system.

FY 2000 or thereabouts, Toners could drop a bomber. Then it went away. It's not earth shattering change by any means. The ethnocentrism of the Air Force track system is retarded anyways. We're now prepping for T-38 instructors to come from T-1 tracked MWS guys who've never flown the thing. Of course, PIT is such a high-ROI water-into-wine making outfit, they'll have zero problem cranking out quality....

As to expectations, manning is falling apart but it sure is a great time to be a T-38 student. It's like an episode of the Oprah Show. YOU get a fighter, YOU get a fighter! LOL There's some real shitbags being pushed who would have never made the cut back in mid 00s, and we've tried documenting away and trying to bring solid candidates for the B-courses, but in this environment it's about impossible to wash someone out of UPT/IFF. In time, this too will change again. It matters none, timing and luck has always been the driver, et al. I sleep with a clear conscience, let the B-course IPs sort through the guano. Not on me brotato chips.

 

--BREAK BREAK--

 

On the AFRC front, the last email I got was the ART-to-AGR retro-conversion plan that's being thrown around, as they grapple and panic on an 5-year on going 55% ART manning rate, after the whole six years of pushing the ART conversion on everyone during FY11 when the airlines were merely hinting at opening the floodgates. Ah vindication sure is sweet. Fuck em. Let them eat cake for 15 years of non-choices and garbage treatment of their operators. It is an absolutely great time to align fuselages into whichever status you want to be in long term. Make no mistake, just like the airline hiring, once it stops, and it WILL stop, the hiring will also freeze in the military side and whatever chair you have at that time is the chair you'll have to like for quite a while.

 

The only way they can change the ART dynamics for the better is to allow that job to be considered USERRA-eligible based on the part B. That way airline aspirants can mil leave into an ART. But since it's being driven by the part A (civilian), no dice. Same thing for the AD recall volunteer call. You give the guy a flying club gig for 3 years and all these junior guys will jump at it. Pilot shortage fixed overnight. But big blue ain't interested in giving out good deals. So they'll sit on it and keep sucking. Oh well, suit yourself.

P.S. One gratuitous pot shot observation of the airline gig. You know, for the greatest job in the world, people sure spend a lot of time hiding from it in the military. Any job is great when you're the senior guy. I judge a job's worth by how the middle guy does. From my vantage point, the middle guy at the airlines does ok, and I'm certainly not making a plug for an AD-on-the-cheap ART job, just keeping it balanced. I was a trougher in the mid 00s, I know what the airline job looks like on the back end of the waves. No free lunch fellas. Everybody walk with the Mk 1s uncaged and tracking now. No excuse in the age of the internet.

[daynightindicator]

Where is this info coming from, and has something like this happened in recent memory? I wouldn't've expected to ever hear something like this. It sounds like almost a complete revamp of the tracking system.

It was in the porch brief from our functional. Official AFPC brief. He also mentioned Moody standing back up for full UPT ops.


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[hindsight2020]

nm.....

Edited January 7, 2017 by hindsight2020

[ViperStud]

23 hours ago, Smokin said:

Imagine how much better of a squadron it could be if the SQ/DO or SQ/CC honestly didn't give a single thought to his career after?

Never. Think AD is going to let recall dudes climb the corporate ladder as DOs and CCs?  Try flight commander, chief of training, UDM or (if lucky) line IP.  The dudes i knew who bit in the past were never put in position to compete for leadership. 

21 hours ago, di1630 said:

Big blue will screw this up and piss off more people. People who signed the bonus a few years back willing to stay as long as they can fly operationally will be given IFF and "other" 11F billets while the return to AD guys will be given the enticing assignments to get them back which will just piss more people off. Our leadership is not skilled/smart enough to enact this correctly.

Two buddies were part of a rated recall at a previous assignment.  I don't know all the details, but one went 4 years without a deployment and the other went downrange once - a volunteer because he got a nice type rating out of it. Both said that no deployments was a condition of their recall that they "negotiated" with AFPC. Bottom line - things like this would have to be on the table. I'm thrilled that I got out, as are the others I know.  If big blue calls, and the bros say they'll listen if they return with promotion, big bonus, assignment preference (maybe top 3) and protection from non-flying deployments...some will bite. Especially dudes that already have line numbers. 

[Gazmo]

Can someone please elaborate on this.

Let's see.... I'll take a stab at this.

The Guard and Reserves used to be a real good deal, but things have changed a lot since 9/11. We're being abused. The difference now is that we have options and leverage. Is it still a better deal than AD? In a lot of ways, yes, but our government's expectations from the ARC is over the top.

They've gotten used to the ARC's willingness to bend over backwards to get'r done for a paycheck. Furloughed airline pilots, ARC bums, ART's looking to close the gap between a shitty net pay and an AGR salary, you name it, the ARC has risen to the occasion with just about everything they've thrown at us. Yeah, we all raised our hands and are as patriotic as the next guy, but at the end of the day you have to make it worth our while to do rotation after rotation to PACOM and CENTCOM.

We don't have the reprieve the AD guys do of a staff tour (gasp), being detailed to the Wing or getting a white jet tour to break up the monotony of living in the desert. Traditional guardsmen/reservists are pretty much line pilots for life. You have the option to stay in as a Lt Col for 28 years and fly the line every day of those 28 years. We've relied on a lot of volunteerism, but when you've got guys who've been doing this for 15-20 years, they're getting tired and it's come to the point where it's just not worth it to them anymore.

I don't care what some of the AD guys think, it's not easy to be a mission-ready pilot at less than 1/3 the cost of our AD counterparts while holding a full-time civilian job. We don't have to do any less training than anyone else out there. Add that to the mountains of ancillary training, DIY administrative queep, and the neverending shift toward support agencies being allowed to run the AF the way they want it run, not the way it should be run.

Our traditionals don't get a bonus to stay past 10 years. In the past, our retention program was good deal trips to cush destinations and unparalleled comradery while we were there, but those deals are few and far in between. Add that to anal retentive policies that have shit-canned just about any fun you could possibly have in fear of an article 15 or worse, jail time.

On the full-time side, the ART program is going to destroy the ARC's ability to maintain mission-ready flying squadrons and they're about 10 years too late trying to fix it.

So yes, I see there being many challenges for the ARC and I'm not looking forward to it. I need 5 more years to get my guard retirement. It's gonna be the longest 5 years of my life. Speaking of retirements, this new military retirement system coming online soon will NOT work in the ARC's favor for retention.

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[SocialD]

7 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

P.S. One gratuitous pot shot observation of the airline gig. You know, for the greatest job in the world, people sure spend a lot of time hiding from it in the military. 

Some do, many do not.  I would venture to guess that most of those who do "hide out," are commuters.  No way I would go back on orders, life is "pretty darn good," as a part timer. 

36 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Never. Think AD is going to let recall dudes climb the corporate ladder as DOs and CCs?  Try flight commander, chief of training, UDM or (if lucky) line IP.  

On the contrary, the only way I would consider such an assignment is with the following;

-Spang or Aviano, line IP only, no additional duties (maybe asst. scheduler), no non-vol single man "TDY/Deployments" (I'll deploy with the squadron), Mon-Thurs work week, 0700-1730 work day (debrief stops to be out the door at 17:30:01), I can take my leave whenever I want (ALL of it...in 15 or 30 day chunks), ...and I'm gonna need ~125k/yr bonus for the 3 years (I don't care that I'm still under my UPT ADSC).  

FWIW, my SQ/CC recently received an e-mail asking if he had guys willing to come back on active duty for an assignment (flying or staff).  Oddly enough, no bites...

18 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

Let's see.... I'll take a stab at this.

The Guard and Reserves used to be a real good deal, but things have changed a lot since 9/11. We're being abused. The difference now is that we have options and leverage. Is it still a better deal than AD? In a lot of ways, yes, but our government's expectations from the ARC is over the top.

They've gotten used to the ARC's willingness to bend over backwards to get'r done for a paycheck. Furloughed airline pilots, ARC bums, ART's looking to close the gap between a shitty net pay and an AGR salary, you name it, the ARC has risen to the occasion with just about everything they've thrown at us. Yeah, we all raised our hands and are as patriotic as the next guy, but at the end of the day you have to make it worth our while to do rotation after rotation to PACOM and CENTCOM.

We don't have the reprieve the AD guys do of a staff tour (gasp), being detailed to the Wing or getting a white jet tour to break up the monotony of living in the desert. Traditional guardsmen/reservists are pretty much line pilots for life. You have the option to stay in as a Lt Col for 28 years and fly the line every day of those 28 years. We've relied on a lot of volunteerism, but when you've got guys who've been doing this for 15-20 years, they're getting tired and it's come to the point where it's just not worth it to them anymore.

I don't care what some of the AD guys think, it's not easy to be a mission-ready pilot at less than 1/3 the cost of our AD counterparts while holding a full-time civilian job. We don't have to do any less training than anyone else out there. Add that to the mountains of ancillary training, DIY administrative queep, and the neverending shift toward support agencies being allowed to run the AF the way they want it run, not the way it should be run.

Our traditionals don't get a bonus to stay past 10 years. In the past, our retention program was good deal trips to cush destinations and unparalleled comradery while we were there, but those deals are few and far in between. Add that to anal retentive policies that have shit-canned just about any fun you could possibly have in fear of an article 15 or worse, jail time.

On the full-time side, the ART program is going to destroy the ARC's ability to maintain mission-ready flying squadrons and they're about 10 years too late trying to fix it.

So yes, I see there being many challenges for the ARC and I'm not looking forward to it. I need 5 more years to get my guard retirement. It's gonna be the longest 5 years of my life. Speaking of retirements, this new military retirement system coming online soon will NOT work in the ARC's favor for retention.

 

This...all of this right here!

It was one thing when we were deploying every 2-2.5 years, for 45-60 days, to go drop bombs.  But now we're "deploying" every 20-22 months, for 90-110 days, to do NOTHING...  Dudes are asking themselves, why they're taking HUGE pay cuts to go twiddle their thumbs on some non-relevant TSP.       

[pawnman]

22 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Where is this info coming from, and has something like this happened in recent memory? I wouldn't've expected to ever hear something like this. It sounds like almost a complete revamp of the tracking system.

Heard it from the Bomber rep at AFPC.  If a T-38 stud is fighter qualified, he's getting fighters.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  We've had one or two 12B B-1 guys go to pilot training hoping to come back to the B-1.  Both were sent to fighters.  One was told "sorry, you're an average T-38 student, we're sending you to F-16s".