Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[ViperStud]

6 hours ago, Gazmo said:

$1k extra for a proclamed "national crisis".... nice.

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If they do that it's an insult to everyone. I mean, just offer the most you can; things aren't going to get better. 

Apparently the RC AGR bonus will only go up to 30k. There was a push from some dipshit leaders at NGB to eliminate it totally, citing the idea that the "golden ticket" AGR positions didn't need a bonus. Funny, we've had two quit in the past 6 months for the airlines. Leadership: still fvcking clueless.

[Guardian]

I've heard the same, that NGB was trying to get rid of both the 25k bonus and the 15k bonus. They don't think they have a pilot problem either. We also recently lost two full timers. Can't get anyone to take an ART job at all.


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[Gazmo]

I'm sure every OG/CC going to the OG council meetings has pleaded with NGB to do something about the full-time pilot shortage. If they aren't doing anything, they aren't listening. At the end of the day, just like our AD bretheren, we're not fed up just because of the money and bennies or lack there of. The ANG has become AD on the cheap and NGB leadership has let it happen.

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[pawnman]

4 hours ago, Guardian said:

From what I heard they had to force people to do striker vista. If you have to force it then what's the point?


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They had to force the B-1 dudes to go to BUFFs.  I don't know how thrilled the BUFF guys were to come over to the B-1, but they seemed pretty motivated.

[*]

7 minutes ago, pawnman said:

They had to force the B-1 dudes to go to BUFFs.  I don't know how thrilled the BUFF guys were to come over to the B-1, but they seemed pretty motivated.

Yeah I think overall it's considered a great deal by buff drivers.  

Don't know why you bone guys aren't amped about things like Minot and nuke?? (Sarcasm)

[08Dawg]

7 hours ago, pawnman said:

They had to force the B-1 dudes to go to BUFFs.  I don't know how thrilled the BUFF guys were to come over to the B-1, but they seemed pretty motivated.

They were probably stoked...until they found out the Bones were picking up the Guam rotations...

[sqwatch]

The extra grand is for divorce lawyer retainer fees.

If it were only that cheap.

You know why divorce is so expensive? Because it's worth it.



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[pawnman]

On 3/11/2017 at 5:01 PM, * said:

Yeah I think overall it's considered a great deal by buff drivers.  

Don't know why you bone guys aren't amped about things like Minot and nuke?? (Sarcasm)

I know the WSO wasn't thrilled about being EWO-only and not dropping weapons.

[Disco_Nav963]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

I know the WSO wasn't thrilled about being EWO-only and not dropping weapons.

Is that what actually happened to said individual or what said individual was afraid would happen before they left? 

I have no first-hand knowledge of what the BUFF FTU has done with the B-1 Vista dudes... I just suspect that given our lack of depth at RN (WSO-E... whatever...) and the vast differences between the B-1 & B-52 defensive suites we would have put an experienced B-1 WSO in the offense compartment. If we didn't do that, whoever made the decision should be taken out to the UTTR and tied down somewhere on Kitty Cat. I could see the argument that you could make someone an instructor EWO faster than an instructor WSO (fewer hours required)... But damn. The B-1 OSO to B-52 WSO conversion is... "Here are the differences in Sniper mech. Forget what having a radar from the late 20th century was like. You know how to plan JASSM? Cool, here's how to plan MALD and shoot CALCM."

The DSO to EWO conversion would be going from a fairly automated system where you're primarily doing ambiguity resolution and making sure it's running the right programs and running the EXCM (I assume) to one where you have a Frankenstein monster of multiple receivers and transmitters built different in different decades, some of which are fairly automated, but others of which require you to watch an oscilloscope and tune in Tokyo with your jammers manually. By the way we don't have an ILST mode on our radar and we don't have Link 16 yet, so AI defense is kind of sporty, and you also have to learn this whole "commit criteria" thought process for SAMs that doesn't exist in the B-1 (or so the EWO we went to the B-1 via Vista tells me).

[magnetfreezer]

this whole "commit criteria" thought process for SAMs that doesn't exist in the B-1 (or so the EWO we went to the B-1 via Vista tells me).

He's right, we do generally prefer threat reacting to raging white (or grey)

[08Dawg]

3 hours ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

Is that what actually happened to said individual or what said individual was afraid would happen before they left? 

I have no first-hand knowledge of what the BUFF FTU has done with the B-1 Vista dudes...

Luckily, I do!   We, thankfully, did not shoehorn him in the EW seat.  He went through IQT academics and a more or less TX-like flightline program as an RN...er, WSO....

[Guardian]

Don't understand a lot of the acronyms being thrown around about the NAVs. Could you explain why it matters what seat they are in? Not being confrontational. Just ignorant on the subject.


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[08Dawg]

32 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Don't understand a lot of the acronyms being thrown around about the NAVs. Could you explain why it matters what seat they are in? Not being confrontational. Just ignorant on the subject.


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RN- Radar Nav- the left seat downstairs guy in the Buff.  Controls bombs, missiles, radar and pod. Has no control over defensive stuff. 

EW- Electronic Warfare Officer.  Jams things, has no control over weapons. 

WSO- Weapon System Officer- historically, the backseaters in Bones and Mudhens.  About a year ago, AFGSC made the decision to relabel radar navs and navs as WSOs because "WSOs promote better because everybody knows what a WSO is but nobody knows what an RN is"....or so I was told. 

The Striker Vista guys, coming from Bones, are versed in both offensive and defensive skill sets, but the Buff's EA suite is so much more man-in-the-loop than the Bone's that it'd be like teaching the guy Greek or something (wait, can I say that or is it offensive?)  Skillset translates better putting him in the RN seat. 

There, now you know more than you ever wanted to about the world of the 12B. 

[ThreeHoler]

Any rumors that there could be a second bonus for old farts who have completed their 5-year prison term?


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[Right Seat Driver]

1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

Any rumors that there could be a second bonus for old farts who have completed their 5-year prison term?


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That was a rumor I heard two years ago from some senior leaders but have yet to see anything in writing.  BTW, two years ago a few MAJCOM/CCs were flipping out because their Patches that happened to be school selects were leaving in droves.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Right Seat Driver
Spelling

[pawnman]

15 hours ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

Is that what actually happened to said individual or what said individual was afraid would happen before they left? 

I have no first-hand knowledge of what the BUFF FTU has done with the B-1 Vista dudes... I just suspect that given our lack of depth at RN (WSO-E... whatever...) and the vast differences between the B-1 & B-52 defensive suites we would have put an experienced B-1 WSO in the offense compartment. If we didn't do that, whoever made the decision should be taken out to the UTTR and tied down somewhere on Kitty Cat. I could see the argument that you could make someone an instructor EWO faster than an instructor WSO (fewer hours required)... But damn. The B-1 OSO to B-52 WSO conversion is... "Here are the differences in Sniper mech. Forget what having a radar from the late 20th century was like. You know how to plan JASSM? Cool, here's how to plan MALD and shoot CALCM."

The DSO to EWO conversion would be going from a fairly automated system where you're primarily doing ambiguity resolution and making sure it's running the right programs and running the EXCM (I assume) to one where you have a Frankenstein monster of multiple receivers and transmitters built different in different decades, some of which are fairly automated, but others of which require you to watch an oscilloscope and tune in Tokyo with your jammers manually. By the way we don't have an ILST mode on our radar and we don't have Link 16 yet, so AI defense is kind of sporty, and you also have to learn this whole "commit criteria" thought process for SAMs that doesn't exist in the B-1 (or so the EWO we went to the B-1 via Vista tells me).

We were all told that because we had the requisite electronic warfare training, we would be EWOs if we signed up.  And that the BUFF does not train people to be both EWOs and RNs.

[LookieRookie]

Back to the bonus, from what I saw from DRAFT is 11F/11U gets $35K. 11B/11M/11S get $34. 11H/11R get $28K.

There also was the addition of 1, 2, and 13 year contracts and possible renegotiation if Congress ups the amount.

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

Edited March 15, 2017 by LookieRookie
Cso

[Disco_Nav963]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Back to the bonus, from what I saw from DRAFT is 11F/11U gets $35K. 11B/11M/11S get $34. 11H/11R get $28K.

There also was the addition of 1, 2, and 13 year contracts and possible renegotiation if Congress ups the amount.

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

12B bonus? About time. Two years ago I might have even taken it. 

[Guardian]

Won't change a thing


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[08Dawg]

10 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

Probably because 12M no longer really exists outside the Guard/Reserve

[uscmas412]

10 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Back to the bonus, from what I saw from DRAFT is 11F/11U gets $35K. 11B/11M/11S get $34. 11H/11R get $28K.

There also was the addition of 1, 2, and 13 year contracts and possible renegotiation if Congress ups the amount.

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

Someone please explain why 12H manning is so incredibly horrid.  They couldn't retain folks with a $15k bonus for the past few years?  As a 12S, I've yet to meet one CGO who can't wait to GTFO.  Palace Chase applications and seeking ways out are the standard.  

[nsplayr]

These guys are so ignorant to human psychology the way this is structured. 

A few thousand dollars here or there really makes no difference at all in a guy's decision to stay. They make these numbers seem so calibrated and logical like there's some magic formula on exactly how much you need to pay to tip the balance. News flash, AFPC and Congress ain't that smart.

What ends up being incredibly insulting however is being paid less than your buddy just because he has a different letter after his number, when you both can see that each of your career fields is undermanned. 

Even when the retention need differs across specialties (11F vs 11M), a level bonus is always going to feel more equitable and produce better results. The joy of the fighter guy getting a few thousand more will not outweigh the anger of the heavy guy getting a few thousand less,and the AF will end up with fewer pilots than if they just paid everyone the same bonus. 

+1 for $60K across the board for pilots, $25K for CSOs and call it a day.

Have fun being the monkey on the left!

[Gazmo]

That monkey vid is hilarious.

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[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

These guys are so ignorant to human psychology the way this is structured. 

A few thousand dollars here or there really makes no difference at all in a guy's decision to stay. They make these numbers seem so calibrated and logical like there's some magic formula on exactly how much you need to pay to tip the balance. News flash, AFPC and Congress ain't that smart.

What ends up being incredibly insulting however is being paid less than your buddy just because he has a different letter after his number, when you both can see that each of your career fields is undermanned. 

Even when the retention need differs across specialties (11F vs 11M), a level bonus is always going to feel more equitable and produce better results. The joy of the fighter guy getting a few thousand more will not outweigh the anger of the heavy guy getting a few thousand less,and the AF will end up with fewer pilots than if they just paid everyone the same bonus. 

+1 for $60K across the board for pilots, $25K for CSOs and call it a day.

 

Mostly agree with you, but not on your point that paying everyone the same is a solution (hello socialism). If someone has a skill set that is in higher demand it can command a higher price, and it should.

Now, the $1K difference between AFSCs is amusing AF logic, as if it was the product of some Rube Goldberg device, and I agree with you that if they're going to pay people equivalently the same amount/bonus, they should just make it the same across the board - $1K difference between 11Xs ain't going to make a difference in retention for those seeking money - it will make a difference for those who want to feel like they are valued by the organization - which a bonus structured like this goes a long way to undermining.

That said, if there is a (much) greater need for certain AFSCs, they should reflect that in the bonus they offer. Ultimately though, I'm not one for bonuses and would prefer to see the AF tackle this problem in a completely different way that represents the value provided to the DOD that each AFSC brings. I would rather have them divorce the pay scale from O-whatever and align it with AFSC. At this point in my career, I struggle more with the logic of paying O-1/2/3/4/5/6s the same when different AFSCs bring inherently different value to the warfighting table. Same is true for Es.

[Gazmo]

Well that's essentially what flight pay is for so we can argue that our current flight pay is antiquated and should be a lot more. I think we can say an O-3 Aircraft Commander of a MAF aircraft responsible for global mobility of his or her crew or anyone responsible for any other semi-cylindrical object that passes through the air at high speeds should get a bit more dough than an O-3 in the fitness center in charge of making sure the basketballs are inflated to the correct pressure. I mean shit, the "over 4" flight pay is $206 per month. $2,472 per year to command an aircraft for the military? Ok, sure. It goes to $650 over 6, but by then most of us are seasoned IP's or even evaluators. Over 14? Probably not flying much anymore. As a comparison, your lowest 4-year obligated health professional bonus (General Dentistry) is $150,000 or $37,500 per year. Neurosurgeons get $400,000. No, I'm not trying to compare pilots to neurosurgeons, but let's remember that the Air Force is paying these people big bucks because of supply/demand and the fact that their skill commands 3 or 4 times their military salary in the civilian world.

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