Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[HeyWatchThis]

On 4/12/2017 at 0:59 PM, faipmafiaofficial said:

Looks like Grosso doesn't agree with Everhart

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/air-force-stop-loss-is-not-on-the-table-in-effort-to-retain-pilots

""Stop-loss is not a part of the Air Force's retention strategy, as we expect the monetary and non-monetary tools we have implemented will attract and retain a mission-ready force," Grosso said."

Did I miss these "monetary and non-monetary tools" that they implemented? 

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

4 hours ago, General Chang said:

Stop Loss always has been (and still is) on the table.  It has to be.  U.S. citizens are depending on military pilots, some reading this forum, to defend this country and their right to L/L/PoH.  We must sustain an appropriate posture to our enemies in this interconnected world.  Stop loss, if invoked, becomes a patriotic duty.  I sincerely hope we have a few patriots left in the pilot ranks.

Your personnelists are working day and night at the highest levels to solve this problem by any other means.  Those personnelists are heroes in my book, and I believe they will be successful.  However, if they are not successful & Stop Loss is invoked, it will be easier, and shorter, if service members remember their core values & jump on the bandwagon.  Young people- do not be disheartened by the negativity on this blog.  The future of our Air Force and our country is bright, and you are the beacons.  Thank you for serving.

Chang...please stop with the rhetoric and oversimplification of the repercussions of stop loss. You challenge the patriotism of individuals who HAVE served and separated from the AF. You have no knowledge of their level of patriotism or sacrifice. Are you an advocate for conscription to fill the void of other such manning shortages? What's the difference? Stop loss, for all intents and purposes turns an all volunteer force into a selective draft. I would argue drafting or applying stop loss to individuals to become power point rangers or bullet sponges is an effective technique because patriotism be damned their morale is likely in the crapper anyway. Now apply that logic to aviation, where individuals are FORCED into a position responsible for multimillion dollar weapon systems. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Be sure to add a line to the ORM matrix for stop lossed aircrew members. Don't put the past screw ups of your beloved personnel world on the shoulders of aviators who departed the fix for greener pastures. It is amazing that you cannot see that YOU are the problem and the solution is NOT to ask more from those that you need. Fix your world, demonstrate your accountability, fire your leadership, and then maybe you will have an influx of VOLUNTEERS to come back and demonstrate the patriotism that is within each of us. Until then...fuck off!

[Hopefulflyer389]

6 hours ago, General Chang said:

 do not be disheartened by the negativity on this blog. 

Says the guy with  -291 dislkes.

[Duck]

Says the guy with  -291 dislkes.

It would be more but most of us are on mobile and have no dislike function...


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[raimius]

10 hours ago, General Chang said:

Stop Loss always has been (and still is) on the table.  It has to be.  U.S. citizens are depending on military pilots, some reading this forum, to defend this country and their right to L/L/PoH.  We must sustain an appropriate posture to our enemies in this interconnected world.  Stop loss, if invoked, becomes a patriotic duty.  I sincerely hope we have a few patriots left in the pilot ranks.

Your personnelists are working day and night at the highest levels to solve this problem by any other means.  Those personnelists are heroes in my book, and I believe they will be successful.  However, if they are not successful & Stop Loss is invoked, it will be easier, and shorter, if service members remember their core values & jump on the bandwagon.  Young people- do not be disheartened by the negativity on this blog.  The future of our Air Force and our country is bright, and you are the beacons.  Thank you for serving.

Haha, way to stay on message!

-If our personnel folk are doing such an amazing job, why is pilot retention now in crisis mode and getting worse?

-Are bandwagoning and group think now core values?  Was there an MFR I missed?
-Accusing service members of being unpatriotic for trying to avoid the AF's absolute breaking of faith and coercive actions...well, here is EXHIBIT A of the type of "leadership" that drives people away from what should be one of the coolest, most enviable jobs in the world.

[Sprkt69]

20 minutes ago, raimius said:

Haha, way to stay on message!

-If our personnel folk are doing such an amazing job, why is pilot retention now in crisis mode and getting worse?

-Are bandwagoning and group think now core values?  Was there an MFR I missed?
-Accusing service members of being unpatriotic for trying to avoid the AF's absolute breaking of faith and coercive actions...well, here is EXHIBIT A of the type of "leadership" that drives people away from what should be one of the coolest, most enviable jobs in the world.

You didn't do the CBT about the bandwagoning and group think requirement? It's a critical part of the OPR process and your success in today's AF

[Trogdor]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:40 AM, General Chang said:

Stop Loss always has been (and still is) on the table.  It has to be.  U.S. citizens are depending on military pilots, some reading this forum, to defend this country and their right to L/L/PoH.  We must sustain an appropriate posture to our enemies in this interconnected world.  Stop loss, if invoked, becomes a patriotic duty.  I sincerely hope we have a few patriots left in the pilot ranks.

Your personnelists are working day and night at the highest levels to solve this problem by any other means.  Those personnelists are heroes in my book, and I believe they will be successful.  However, if they are not successful & Stop Loss is invoked, it will be easier, and shorter, if service members remember their core values & jump on the bandwagon.  Young people- do not be disheartened by the negativity on this blog.  The future of our Air Force and our country is bright, and you are the beacons.  Thank you for serving.

What a chod.... Sorry for the vulgarity, but I take offense to some random pentagon dude (if that is what he really is) calling my patriotism into question.  In the 9 years since I have earned my wings I have spent 3.5 years deployed in some of the best garden spots the USAF can provide.  That does not include home station TDY's.  All said, I have spent half my pilot life not sleeping in my own bed.  Oh, don't forget all the PCS moves on top of that.  I never said no to a deployment and I have always wanted (and am willing) to do my part. 

You know what... I am almost willing to keep doing that same tempo if I get to fly, because I like the mission and I like being a line guy.  However, the AF is telling that is not in my future if I want to get promoted and if I tank my career (promotion to O-5) to stay a line guy I may get the boot at 15 years.  So, I weigh my options.  I have a lot of hours and there are a lot of jobs that will let me fly (and fly only) on the outside.  The up and out system of the AF is a big problem that the AF does not want to face and/or change.  You could pay me half of what I make, if you told me I could stay at the same base for 5-8 years and stay a line guy doing the same plans/scheds/mobility crap job when not flying. 

I know some non-rated folks are working hard to try and fix this mess... but all I can remember is one of my buddies (good dude that was good to hang out with but non-rated).  He was looking at separating at his 6 year point, but volunteered for a 180 because he said he couldn't in good conscience separate from the AF if he didn't know what it was like to deploy..... I had already been on four by that point..........

In the end of the day... we are all aware of the ops tempo disparity in the AF and some of us have more options than others when our commitment is up.  I signed a contract out of solid faith with the government on a patriotic duty, and shame on ANYONE in leadership or the puzzle palace that calls that into question when that contract is up. 

[MechGov]

Disclaimer: it's Friday and I'm a couple past the PHA prescribed limit for alcohol consumption.

Chang, what the fv(k. Don't dare to question the patriotism of those who have chosen to serve 8-10 years after their training. Calling it in to question is a feckless argument. Either you're a clever troll or the embodiment of what's driving aircrew out of this business.

It's the squadron dude. The CSAF acknowledges it. When we get that right, then enough dudes will stay. But whatever, apparently the puzzle palace has a much better idea than a bunch of dudes who are tripping over themselves trying to help Big Blue fix it. But, you already knew the answer, hence our opinion is irrelevant.

Fix the squadron, and you're on a more sustainable path. Besides, care to elaborate WHY you need a higher ACP take rate? Several people here think it's s 179 or 365. I think it's a staff tour. Your move...we're listening.

Oh and stop with the personnelist bullshit. I joke that my third AFSC is comm because support is abysmal. I'm curious to hear your take on why they're heroes too.

And now back too another drink.


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[sqwatch]

Noobs


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[pawnman]

On 4/13/2017 at 9:40 AM, General Chang said:

Stop Loss always has been (and still is) on the table.  It has to be.  U.S. citizens are depending on military pilots, some reading this forum, to defend this country and their right to L/L/PoH.  We must sustain an appropriate posture to our enemies in this interconnected world.  Stop loss, if invoked, becomes a patriotic duty.  I sincerely hope we have a few patriots left in the pilot ranks.

Your personnelists are working day and night at the highest levels to solve this problem by any other means.  Those personnelists are heroes in my book, and I believe they will be successful.  However, if they are not successful & Stop Loss is invoked, it will be easier, and shorter, if service members remember their core values & jump on the bandwagon.  Young people- do not be disheartened by the negativity on this blog.  The future of our Air Force and our country is bright, and you are the beacons.  Thank you for serving.

Would these be the same personnelists that paid pilots to get out less than two years ago?

[BuddhaSixFour]

On 4/13/2017 at 7:40 AM, General Chang said:

Your personnelists are working day and night at the highest levels to solve this problem by any other means.  Those personnelists are heroes in my book, and I believe they will be successful. 

See, that's why you need to serve your country by separating and getting out of the way. There isn't anything personnelists can do because it isn't a beauracratic problem. It's a leadership problem. Commanders can fix it. Not you. Not AFPC. The more you try, the worse it will get.

[flyusaf83]

So personnelists are the real heroes of the AF sitting in their cubicles from 0900-1530, with a 2 hour lunch break. Never thinking of working over the weekend, never showing at 0300 or leaving work at 2359, never doing anything dangerous at work besides clear paper jams. Never going through rigorous formal training programs. 

Oh and if stop loss is a thing, you think it's the victims that need to remember their core values? You mean the people who would be lied to?

How about the AF shows their excellence and avoids this debacle.

how about the AF shows their service before self, and takes care of its veterans instead of manipulating federal law to stop them from finding civilian jobs when they leave.

How about he AF shows their intergrity and takes stop loss off the table since it is blatantly dishonest.

I doubt Chang is real with the asinine garbage he says... then I listen to commanders calls, and I think he might be a real thing.

[17D_guy]

Well... AF is releasing the PDSM for Cyber Retention Pay in 2 days.  Wonder what the take rate is going to be in comparison to you zipper suited sun gods.  Doubly so, since Grosso said we need to retain 90% to make manning healthy.

[cantfly]

https://www.dailybreeze.com/business/20170402/as-military-base-cuts-loom-aerospace-leaders-prepare-to-defend-el-segundos-air-force-installment

Should this place be BRAC'd?

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[war007afa]

1 hour ago, 17D_guy said:

Well... AF is releasing the PDSM for Cyber Retention Pay in 2 days.  Wonder what the take rate is going to be in comparison to you zipper suited sun gods.  Doubly so, since Grosso said we need to retain 90% to make manning healthy.

"May the odds ever be in your favor"

[nunya]

21 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Doubly so, since Grosso said we need to retain 90% to make manning healthy.

I don't really have a clue what Cyber does, so much less can I judge your civilian employment prospects.  But I think I'm safe in saying there's no way in hell 90% of your dudes hang around when they can (again, I'm guessing) go live in NorCal or Austin or Seattle or wherever and make the same or (way) more dough.

[TnkrToad]

I've harped on this before, but one of the many problems with the current ACP program is that it only--at best--helps keep folks on AD until 20 yrs service (so we can have enough folks for O-4/O-5 command, staff, grey beard line flying, etc.) . . . and it's not even doing this well.

The bigger problem, as I see it, is that Big Blue is doing little-to-nothing to keep people on AD past 20 yrs. Given the impact that O-6s and above can have on their commands/the AF, the leadership problem we all like to complain about is likely to get substantially worse.

Data points: right now, there are 128 total Command Pilots/163 total pilots (the rest are Senior Pilots--how one gets to 21 yrs of service, without meeting the minimal requirements for Command Pilot rating is beyond me) with 21 yrs of commissioned service in the AF. In other words, these are folks who stayed in past 20 and (aside from passed-over Majors) competed for O-6. At the end of FY13 (just three and a half years ago), there were 374 Command Pilots with 21 commissioned years of service (out of 405 pilots total in that year group).

In other words, the number of pilots bothering to stay on AD past 20 and keep the Big Blue ship afloat has dropped by about two thirds in the past 3.5 years. This is across all 11X AFSCs. Certain pilot communities are especially hurting. The '96-ish year group, for instance--the current crop of recent O-6 selects--is healthier on 11Fs than 11Ms. Somehow, this never shows up on the official Air Force website or even Air Force Times, though.

Bottom line, whenever you look at stats of how many pilots short a community might be, take a very critical eye. Senior AF leaders are wringing their hands over a 1,500 pilot shortage, with most of that shortage being in the 11F community. Theoretically, this means all the other non-11F communities combined are just a few hundred pilots short. That might be true--it's possible that the total 11B/H/M/S/R population is vaguely close to the raw total required. If the Air Force is comparatively healthy on overall numbers of non-11Fs, the only way I can make the math work is that there are gross overages of pilots in the year groups who haven't yet been offered the bonus.

A pilot community where there are overages of Lts, Capts and junior Majs--but almost no senior Majs/Lt Cols/Cols to lead them and/provide staff top cover/fight for new aircraft and/or capabilities/etc.--cannot be healthy.

Big Blue must do more to keep adequate numbers of 11Xs in all year groups, leadership levels and 11X communities, if it's going to have a hope of getting healthy.

TT

[pawnman]

Agreed.  Like I've said before, we've got 2 O-6 selects who are retiring well before their promotion dates, both 11B, both great leaders and IPs.  

And in the other shortage we often neglect, we have a MX officer who was selected for O-6 who has also opted to retire instead.

[17D_guy]

10 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

A pilot community where there are overages of Lts, Capts and junior Majs--but almost no senior Majs/Lt Cols/Cols to lead them and/provide staff top cover/fight for new aircraft and/or capabilities/etc.--cannot be healthy.

No, no, no, no, no.... you forgot.  Leadership from on high, "You can be replaced."

People got the message, and acted accordingly.

[17D_guy]

Well, our ORB dropped.  $15K a year for 4 year ADSC.  All my prior-e friends have signed up (except the ones within 2 years of retirement), and those with 2+ years ADSC's already.  Wife and I aren't decided yet.

None of the true Cyber Operators I know have.  So this all appears to mirror the same ACP issues you all have with dudes already staying are taking it.

[Termy]

That isn't a lot of money. At all. The npv of that is under $40,000. Total. 

[Fuzz]

14 hours ago, TnkrToad said:

Bottom line, whenever you look at stats of how many pilots short a community might be, take a very critical eye. Senior AF leaders are wringing their hands over a 1,500 pilot shortage, with most of that shortage being in the 11F community. Theoretically, this means all the other non-11F communities combined are just a few hundred pilots short. That might be true--it's possible that the total 11B/H/M/S/R population is vaguely close to the raw total required. If the Air Force is comparatively healthy on overall numbers of non-11Fs, the only way I can make the math work is that there are gross overages of pilots in the year groups who haven't yet been offered the bonus.

Depends on your definition of healthy, what the bean counters consider healthy to make their stoplight charts green or what we need to get the mission done. The C-17 is 105% manned on paper except they reduced our crew ratios from 3.0 to 2.5 and closed 2 squadrons. Yet our mission taskings havent decreased anywhere close to reflect our current manning, but according to AFPC we are overnmanned.

[08Dawg]

On 4/20/2017 at 9:03 PM, 17D_guy said:

Well, our ORB dropped.  $15K a year for 4 year ADSC.  All my prior-e friends have signed up (except the ones within 2 years of retirement), and those with 2+ years ADSC's already.  Wife and I aren't decided yet.

None of the true Cyber Operators I know have.  So this all appears to mirror the same ACP issues you all have with dudes already staying are taking it.

YGBFSM...the cyber nerds get a bonus but the 12x community doesn't....I guess I'll just resign myself to beating people up at United...

[Danger41]

4 minutes ago, 08Dawg said:

YGBFSM...the cyber nerds get a bonus but the 12x community doesn't....I guess I'll just resign myself to beating people up at United...

I think the 12x community definitely deserves some form of bonus. I also think the Cyber guys deserve a hell of a lot more than that.

[Bergman]

On 4/20/2017 at 11:09 AM, TnkrToad said:

Data points: right now, there are 128 total Command Pilots/163 total pilots (the rest are Senior Pilots--how one gets to 21 yrs of service, without meeting the minimal requirements for Command Pilot rating is beyond me)

Perhaps they were Nav/EWOs for 6 years before going to pilot training.

Overall good analysis and appreciate the number crunching.  The AF is screwed on so many levels, and they've done it to themselves.