Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Gazmo]

You can't offer a new bonus on a CR. The FY17 budget needs to be approved before they can release it. Same thing happened right before sequestration.

Yeah well doing business without a budget has been a way of life for us now. It's almost become a norm. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I had a budget to work with for more then 3 months at a time. We lost a drill weekend last Dec because of the CR. Congress has proven they don't give a shit about running a military nevermind retaining pilots.

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[DC]

The website says "late Spring"

I'm expecting an update on June 20th to say "mid summer" followed by release of the Bonus on Sept 15th with a due date from applicants of Sept 30th.

Edited May 22, 2017 by DC

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DC said:

The website says "late Spring"

I'm expecting an update on June 20th to say "mid summer" followed by release of the Bonus on Sept 15th with a due date from applicants of Sept 30th.

I'm willing to bet that when they do get around to offering the bonus, they'll extend the window of eligibility and maybe even backdate the pay to your ADSC expiration date if you're taking the 20 YAS option.  I'm interested to see if the 1 and 2 year options that Grosso discussed materialize.  Also, I'm curious as to whether they'll extend the 50% up front to everyone instead of just 11F/U types.

[di1630]

Every day they delay the bonus costs the bonus takers $98 in loss due to proration.

No big deal.


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[Guest]

13 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Every day they delay the bonus costs the bonus takers $98 in loss due to proration.

No big deal.


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Would you rather they offer only $25K/yr now, or wait until the FY17 budget passes and be eligible for up to $35k/yr?

[di1630]

Would you rather they offer only $25K/yr now, or wait until the FY17 budget passes and be eligible for up to $35k/yr?

Does not matter for me. Management should have applied to pressure to prevent this long ago. I understand it's out of USAF management control at this point.


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[MooseAg03]

You can't offer a new bonus on a CR. The FY17 budget needs to be approved before they can release it. Same thing happened right before sequestration.

I don't buy it. You're telling me that all of the times we operated under a CR that we didn't have a bonus program? Check out the list of CRs, I find it hard to believe we didn't have bonus programs during past CRs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_resolution

[daynightindicator]

From a trusted agent...

There was a meeting last week between ~10 USAF pilots and Sen. Tom Cotton (R- Arkansas) and Sen. Angus King (I - Maine).  Both are members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.  The meeting was the result of a pilot writing Sen. Cotton to explain how serious the pilot retention crisis is and suggesting that Congress would do well to get unfiltered opinions of line pilots as opposed to top brass or DC staff officers.  Sen. Cotton requested exactly that from SAF and the meeting was held.

The pilots (all O-3s I believe) represented most of the flying world (bomber, fighter, RPA, tanker/airlift, but no helos) from MAJCOMs around the world.  A SAF/LL rep and a couple Senatorial staffers were the only other attendees, and no one told the pilots what they could or couldn't say.  A buddy of mine, was one of the pilots.

Many issues were discussed, including the toll of constant deployments, 365s/180s that don't require pilots, additional duties, promotions, the assignment process, airline hiring, maintenance issues, etc.  Of note:  the bonus was not a big topic - Sen. Cotton especially does not feel that money will solve the problem and is a big fan of paying above the current bonus levels, which he apparently already felt were very high.  Still, the meeting was promising.  Sen. King apparently was disconcerted about the number of 365s being popped on guys at the 16-19 year mark, and Sen. Cotton agreed that there's a big difference between deploying a 19 year old infantryman for a year to do real fighting and a 37 year old Lt Col with (presumably) a family, to make powerpoint slides.

Who knows what the result will be, but at least some unfiltered opinions made it to some lawmakers.

Edited May 23, 2017 by daynightindicator

[matmacwc]

On 5/21/2017 at 0:51 AM, Seriously said:

 was once told by a transient guy that I had to hook up the fuel hose to the airplane because they (transient alert) weren't allowed to touch another wing's aircraft for liability reasons. I couldn't help but laugh in his face at the absurdity. 

Had that happen at the Died to me.

[Jaded]

44 minutes ago, daynightindicator said:

From a trusted agent...

There was a meeting last week between ~10 USAF pilots and Sen. Tom Cotton (R- Arkansas) and Sen. Angus King (I - Maine).  Both are members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.  The meeting was the result of a pilot writing Sen. Cotton to explain how serious the pilot retention crisis is and suggesting that Congress would do well to get unfiltered opinions of line pilots as opposed to top brass or DC staff officers.  Sen. Cotton requested exactly that from SAF and the meeting was held.

The pilots (all O-3s I believe) represented most of the flying world (bomber, fighter, RPA, tanker/airlift, but no helos) from MAJCOMs around the world.  A SAF/LL rep and a couple Senatorial staffers were the only other attendees, and no one told the pilots what they could or couldn't say.  A buddy of mine, was one of the pilots.

Many issues were discussed, including the toll of constant deployments, 365s/180s that don't require pilots, additional duties, promotions, the assignment process, airline hiring, maintenance issues, etc.  Of note:  the bonus was not a big topic - Sen. Cotton especially does not feel that money will solve the problem and is a big fan of paying above the current bonus levels, which he apparently already felt were very high.  Still, the meeting was promising.  Sen. King apparently was disconcerted about the number of 365s being popped on guys at the 16-19 year mark, and Sen. Cotton agreed that there's a big difference between deploying a 19 year old infantryman for a year to do real fighting and a 37 year old Lt Col with (presumably) a family, to make powerpoint slides.

Who knows what the result will be, but at least some unfiltered opinions made it to some lawmakers.

This was posted on Facebook about that meeting:

 

Many people have expressed an interest in how the AF pilot retention roundtable went in DC... Senior civilian and military leadership know there is a problem and are actively working to identify what are the causes of this problem, and how they can fix it. Congress and the Air Force clearly are concerned about pilot retention by bringing in pilots to discuss this issue face-to-face, unfiltered. The pilots represented the full spectrum of AF communities (F-15, B-1, C-17, C-130, KC-135, E-8, MQ-9).
In no particular order, these were some of the topics brought up by the pilots to Senators Cotton and King:
1. Quality of life and job satisfaction are the primary reasons for people separating, and the AF can't offer enough money to compete with the airlines.
2. AEF deployments, and the threat of them, force people out. AF pilots don't leave because of the deployments with their squadrons, it's due to the the 365 non-vols (passed over majors are especially vulnerable to these).
3. Everyone has to check all the boxes to be the next CSAF due to the up or out promotion system. If you know you're not going to make O-5 or O-6, and the airlines are hiring...might as well cut your losses early (AF wise) and get an earlier start on your 2nd career (airlines, or whatever else you chose to do). 
The Senators asked about what time do you know if you're on "the path", to which the group replied - as a captain (based on the strats, upgrades, and jobs you have).
4. What is the professional development for officers that aren't on the path to be a sq/cc? What are their opportunities as an officer/aviator? We need those 'old and crusty' experienced pilots to guide and mentor young pilots, but those IPs/EPs are exactly who the AF is losing.
5. Pilots aren't valued as pilots. Guidance on OPR writing is that only 1-2 bullets should be about flying.
6. While it's unlikely the AF will bring warrant officers back, the AF could try something similar to what the Aussies/Brits have: a 2-track system, leadership vs flying, which enables pilots to choose around their mid-career what path they want to take. (Senator King specifically asked "you don't have that choice?" "No").
7. PCSing excessively (particularly as a FGO) every couple years results in no stability for families, and is especially challenging for spouses to have their own career.
8. While the AF only enlists or commissions the service member, the AF retains families. Military families already sacrifice so much....If a pilot reaches a point where he/she has to choose between their family or their career, many will choose their family and separate to a new career.
9. The number of taskings and missions for the AF has increased, yet we are the smallest size we've ever been. We have fewer people doing more work (including additional duties), and that burns people out.
10. The AF doesn't have a shortage of pilots to fly the jets (specifically fighter pilots flying fighter jets)..... It has a shortage of pilots to fill staff jobs. At the 10-12 year point, when pilots typically separate, is when pilots go from being in the jet to being out of the jet (staff). Some people just want to fly and keep flying, and will jump to the airlines/guard/reserves to focus on aviation.

We ran out of time before we ran out of topics that could be addressed for this complex problem. Some pilots will leave because of a single issue, such as not being able to get a join spouse assignment. For most pilots, it's a combination of enough cons outweighing the pros. Ultimately, each individual has their own internal and external motivation for why they joined the Air Force, and why they continue to choose to stay in the Air Force.

[ViperStud]

So, who is smart on how much the bonus is really an ADSC?  I've seen some AD dudes in my guard unit lately planning on getting out of it. 

Case 1 - passed over for O5 and hoping to get passed over again.  He says then he can separate and pay back the unearned portion of the bonus ("earned" 25/yr since signing, so ultimately pay back the difference between that and the sum of the up-front and annual installments he's banked so far). Is this how it works for passed-over dudes?

Case 2 - similar dude claiming that even if he promotes APZ he can do the same. To me, this would mean anyone can get out of the bonus if they pay it back.  Any truth to this?  Can one really peace out ~4 yrs into the 9 year bonus if they have the coin to pay back?

Edited May 23, 2017 by ViperStud

[Steve C]

14 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

So, who is smart on how much the bonus I see really an ADSC?  I've seen some AD dudes in my guard unit lately planning on getting out of it. 

Case 1 - passed over for O5 and hoping to get passed over again.  He says then he can separate and pay back the unearned portion of the bonus ("earned" 25/yr since signing, so ultimately pay back the difference between that and the sum of the up-front and annual installments he's banked so far). Is this how it works for passed-over dudes?

Case 2 - similar dude claiming that even if he promotes APZ he can do the same. To me, this would mean anyone can get out of the bonus if they pay it back.  Any truth to this?  Can one really peace out ~4 yrs into the 9 year bonus if they have the coin to pay back?

Case 1 - Yes

Case 2 - No

[Herk Driver]

ACP is a one way contract. The AF can let you out of it but they do not have to. If so, you have to pay back unearned parts of the bonus.


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[Oldtanker]

5 hours ago, Steve C said:

Case 1 - Yes

Case 2 - No

Correct me if I'm wrong; but if you get passed over twice, you have to be out in 6 months, unless in sanctuary or offered continuation (which you can decline). You have 2 months to decline & then you revert to being out in 6 months or forced retire at 20 (if in sanctuary).

These are mandatory separation dates are spelled out in US Code Title 10 & AFI reflects it. 

Manditory Sep dates overrules the bonus commitment, PCS & requal commitments.  

It's like an involuntary discharge.

[di1630]

Pilots are all going to be offered continuation. If you took the bonus and get passed over, usaf doesn't have to let you out of your commitment from what I understand.


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[Guest]

1 hour ago, di1630 said:

Pilots are all going to be offered continuation. If you took the bonus and get passed over, usaf doesn't have to let you out of your commitment from what I understand.


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This is incorrect.  If you are passed over APZ, they may offer you continuation.  You are not required to accept continuation.  All ADSCs are null and void if you choose not to accept.

[Guardian]

Pilots are all going to be offered continuation. If you took the bonus and get passed over, usaf doesn't have to let you out of your commitment from what I understand.


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Tell that to my buddy who was passed over major and told yesterday he wasn't selected for continuation.


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[ViperStud]

14 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Tell that to my buddy who was passed over major and told yesterday he wasn't selected for continuation.


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Tell him to join the guard. Plenty of dudes are doing that to finish up and they're getting to pin on, too. If you get passed over and can't get a guard/reserve gig as well, there are probably other factors a play. 

 

I wasn't thinking about the continuation piece. Where is it spelled out about bonus recoupment if continuation is declined? Is that in each year's ACP release? I'm not saying guys are going about it wrong, just that there seem to be a lot of WOMS in play. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by ViperStud

[Gazmo]

For all the dudes who are thinking about joining the guard or reserves and juggle that with an airline job, just realized that a lot of the guard and Reserve units are busy. It may not be busy compared to an active-duty lifestyle by itself but when you combine that with family and an airline gig things get pretty busy. If you have a spouse with a good job and you can mail drop a lot of trips to manage your schedule that's great but if you're the breadwinner and you're trying to hold down two jobs you're still going to be away from home and you're still going to be busy. There are still going to be deployment requirements and although you won't be deployed as much your deployments in the guard or reserves combined with your days away from home with the airlines do add up. We've picked up a lot of active duty guys and gals over the past couple years and some of them are considering just separating totally and not going to 20 years because they underestimated just how busy they would be and how challenging it is to juggle both especially if you're far away from either one of your jobs. So my suggestion is 2 pick a guard unit near where you're going to be faced with the airlines or pick an airline where you can be base near your guard unit.

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[Bobby]

This is incorrect.  If you are passed over APZ, they may offer you continuation.  You are not required to accept continuation.  All ADSCs are null and void if you choose not to accept.

^^This^^

This is exactly what I did when I was twice passed over. I simply pay them back the unearned portion (via 1% interest monthly installments) and proceed out the door to the airlines!

It is truly better out here.


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[Oldtanker]

5 hours ago, Guardian said:

Tell that to my buddy who was passed over major and told yesterday he wasn't selected for continuation.


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How many years did he have in?

[ThreeHoler]

Two guys I know had about a month shy of 15 years when notified but will have more than 15 years when forced out.

[TnkrToad]

A little nugget worth considering:

While the 1,500 pilot shortage is a big deal, that's only part of the problem. According to my research, the Air Force pilot inventory has dropped from 15,300 to 13,800 since FY11 (1,500 pilots). In that same time, the total number of manned aircraft aviators (pilots, navs, CSOs, ABMs) has dropped by 2,200 (20,900 to 18,700).

The only aviator group that is numerically growing right now is RPA pilots. I guess that's why the AF is focusing its bonus program so heavily on them--the RPA community is the only place where Big Blue is getting a return on its ACP investments.

Bottom line--the shrinking of the nav & ABM career fields will create even greater demand for pilots on staffs, at a time when the pilot community is already hemorrhaging bodies.


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[Gazmo]

More with less. We had to pay for the F-22 and F-35 somehow.

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[ImNotARobot]

Air Force Requests 4K More Airmen, 46 F-35s, No Bonus Changes - Military.com
https://apple.news/AJeUhSGVVT82uTcYESpGrVA

 

No bonus changes...why would I expect anything different. With every passing action, AF leadership shows me EXACTLY how it continues to value pilots. 

And so do the airlines.