Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Champ Kind]

I understand a lot of people don’t want to take it, but some do. So any info would be helpful.

^ Found the school select!

[sling-it-17]

3 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

 

^ Found the school select!

 

Yup, guilty as charged. Prior Enlisted also so it makes sense for my family. Once i signed a 10 year commitment for UPT i was in it for 20. I totally agree that the current bonus doesn’t move the needle on people’s decision. I’ve been fortunate to have great commanders, worked hard, and also had a degree of luck. Also i don’t understand why people say it’s not about the money. The correct statement is: it’s not only about the money. I love serving but your second commitment economics do play a part. Anyone who says different is lying to themselves. 

[IDALPHA]

6 hours ago, sling-it-17 said:

Yup, guilty as charged. Prior Enlisted also so it makes sense for my family. Once i signed a 10 year commitment for UPT i was in it for 20. I totally agree that the current bonus doesn’t move the needle on people’s decision. I’ve been fortunate to have great commanders, worked hard, and also had a degree of luck. Also i don’t understand why people say it’s not about the money. The correct statement is: it’s not only about the money. I love serving but your second commitment economics do play a part. Anyone who says different is lying to themselves. 

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

[MooseClub]

10 hours ago, IDALPHA said:

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

Agreed. I wonder if there’s stats for late-raters who take the bonus. I’d like to see what percentage of total takers fall into that camp. That’s a completely different  equation when it comes to folks staying/taking the bonus. 

[sling-it-17]

It works both ways: the bonus doesn’t affect those who are extremely interested in the airlines and it doesn’t affect those who are extremely interested in the pension at 20 years. Not sure how this is whats wrong with the AF. Each service member decides what’s valuable to them. Their options going forward in the military are a factor in both sides as well. If i was barely getting by in the military that would be a data point used, just like if i was doing well and had options. So those who have options in the military shouldn’t take the bonus? That way they can stick it to the man? From my experience, usually if you have more options in one (mil), you also have more options in the other (airlines). So are u saying the only ones who should be able to take the ACP bonus should be those that are middle of the road guys? Basically saying: sorry you worked too hard and did too well in your first 12 years, so your not eligible bc it will skew the numbers. That sounds amazing.

As far as the take rates go: I’m sure they understand this known situation bc IDE guys have to sign an additional 4 year commitment usually before bonus eligible. But they also understand punishing guys who worked hard to get there wouldn’t pan out well in the long run. No doubt they know 20% or so would stay in no matter the bonus. They are just trying to find the magic number to get an acceptable take rate without getting too much or too little. I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.

[nunya]

1 hour ago, sling-it-17 said:

I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.

You give them too much credit.  They don't know which way is up right now.  Actually crafting an effective plan to reach their target retention numbers isn't even close to achievable.

[ThreeHoler]

As far as the take rates go: I’m sure they understand this known situation bc IDE guys have to sign an additional 4 year commitment usually before bonus eligible. But they also understand punishing guys who worked hard to get there wouldn’t pan out well in the long run. No doubt they know 20% or so would stay in no matter the bonus. They are just trying to find the magic number to get an acceptable take rate without getting too much or too little. I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.

65% is the official target and has been for years.

They know and are unable to legally change the bonus. They have several studies showing where the bonus needs to be to retain 65%. It was $70K/yr a few years ago when the study was done. Congress (mainly the late Senator McCain) denied several requests for higher bonus payouts over the past few years saying they thought the AF could fix the retention issue other ways.

I hope you get a chance to learn more about how the AF works at IDE. Because right now it is obvious that you are ing clueless.

[sling-it-17]

Hilarious! You don’t even know me. My point was I’ve heard it’s 65% but no serious action has been taken to achieve it. But do tell me more grandpa how the “real Air Force” works....smh this guy

[Champ Kind]

I hope you get a chance to learn more about how the AF works at IDE.

Won’t be from anything in the curriculum.

[sling-it-17]

5 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

 

Won’t be from anything in the curriculum.

 

Agreed, it was a cute comment though.

[flyusaf83]

13 hours ago, IDALPHA said:

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

As it stands, you have a point. I think the bonus at $28-35k has a limited effect.  Fence-sitters will still get out. 

I guess I am somewhat of a fence-sitter, in that I see myself having a 1/20 chance of staying in.  I have two more years until decision time.  A couple major things will have to change for me to stay in.  One, is no chance of a 365.  The other is a significant bonus hike.  In the neighborhood of at least $60k.

I love wearing the bag, and it’s going to be hard leaving that.  Lots of intrinsic things that draw me to the military pilot thing.  But is that worth 8 years of airline seniority, especially when I can still wear the bag in a reserve unit?  Not worth the $35k, IMO.  

Some guys say that it’s not about the money.  That’s bull.  There’s a reason this thread is 169 pages long.  Money helps deal with  the sacrifices of military service easier on my family.  It helps with my spouse not being able to stick with a job longer than 3 years because of moves.  It helps my family fly home for holidays instead of driving.  Money does talk, even when the choice would involve other factors.  It’s not just the money, but money is a key factor.

Mccain is gone. Time for a real bonus.

Edited December 24, 2018 by flyusaf83

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, flyusaf83 said:

One, is no chance of a 365.

Well, they've reduced rated 365s for by half in the past 5 years, so there's that.

[jazzdude]

Well, they've reduced rated 365s for by half in the past 5 years, so there's that.

Or did they just split them into 2x 179s that can't be 3-day opted? That's not really solving the problem

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[Homestar]

1 minute ago, jazzdude said:

Or did they just split them into 2x 179s that can't be 3-day opted? That's not really solving the problem

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So is the desire to not do 179s?  Or 365s?  I'm confused.

What do you want?  To never deploy again?  

[IDALPHA]

13 minutes ago, Homestar said:

So is the desire to not do 179s?  Or 365s?  I'm confused.

What do you want?  To never deploy again?  

How about not deploying to be a PowerPoint/Excel secretary for a self serving “bonus taker” O-6+

[jazzdude]

So is the desire to not do 179s?  Or 365s?  I'm confused.
What do you want?  To never deploy again?  

Meaningful deployments that actually matter.

The stupid PowerPoint builder deployments need to go, but they aren't the only ones. Even stupid flying deployments need to go. You can only move the same pallet of literal garbage, or the same vehicles back and forth, before you start to wonder why you're there away from home.

How about also admitting that a 365 is actually a remote (i.e. PCS), and not an ITDY?

Yeah, I may have volunteered for the military and the deployments associated with it. But if you take away the meaning from the work, and don't increase pay to compete with the civilian sector (that generally doesn't need that meaning or sense of patriotism), well, don't be surprised when people don't volunteer to stay any longer.

Maybe getting into wars with no realistic and achievable end goal is also strategically stupid to the overall health of the military, and a huge drain on national resources.

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[Homestar]

40 minutes ago, IDALPHA said:

How about not deploying to be a PowerPoint/Excel secretary for a self serving “bonus taker” O-6+

You want all deployed aide-de-camp positions to go away? When was the last time you saw one of those filled with a non-vol. I get it. Rage against the machine. 

[tac airlifter]

4 hours ago, jazzdude said:

Maybe getting into wars with no realistic and achievable end goal is also strategically stupid to the overall health of the military, and a huge drain on national resources.

Sun Tzu said there is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.  

Best part about IDE/SDE is learning from the curriculum that we are in fact, doing this wrong.

 The great mystery to me is how we teach people the right thing yet so many graduate and immediately do the wrong thing.   All of the generals responsible for our failures have read that quote. Yet here we are. 

 

[jazzdude]

Just finishing up ACSC-DL, and it's been somewhat interesting. Probably would be more interesting if I had more time to delve deeper into the material. But it does make me scratch my head and wonder why we do the things the way we do, especially when what is taught in PME seems to be 180 out from what is practiced.

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[ThreeHoler]

“One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine...” - supposedly some Soviet


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[hindsight2020]

You guys attribute too much virtue to our senior leadership. Occam's razor: when you view the world from the prism of economic self interest, you realize that perpetual war and its rent seeking is not the bug, it's the feature. As such, there is no failure, only profit. Sure, we the pawns eat the opportunity cost. People are getting paid off our idealism, check that, RAIDING the cash registers on the backs of that naivete, and  you guys are quoting Sun Tzu? Lol. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by hindsight2020

[BashiChuni]

and you're telling us about occam's razor. lol

[hindsight2020]

7 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

and you're telling us about occam's razor. lol

Yeah I ran outta pop up books for all y'all lol 

[Swizzle]

3 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

You guys attribute too much virtue to our senior leadership. Occam's razor: when you view the world from the prism of economic self interest, you realize that perpetual war and its rent seeking is not the bug, it's the feature. As such, there is no failure, only profit. Sure, we the pawns eat the opportunity cost. People are getting paid off our idealism, check that, RAIDING the cash registers on the backs of that naivete, and  you guys are quoting Sun Tzu? Lol. 

 

[Bigred]

10 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Sun Tzu said there is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.  

Best part about IDE/SDE is learning from the curriculum that we are in fact, doing this wrong.

 The great mystery to me is how we teach people the right thing yet so many graduate and immediately do the wrong thing.   All of the generals responsible for our failures have read that quote. Yet here we are. 

 

To be fair, its not the guys with stars that actually approve us to go to war, or to keep us in said warfare.

That said, it is up to those same dudes to accurately advise the folks that do make the decisions to send us to war. That part is what appears to have been forgotten.