Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[SocialD]

7 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

IMO, ARC should get the full ACIP as long as they meet the same requirements of AD: 4 hours in a month (OFDA creditable month) within the last 3 months.

 

 

It's not all that hard to do, even as a part timer.  Though ours is sorties, not hours. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by SocialD

[Scooter14]

What were the expanded Space A benefits specifically?  This always pissed me off as well.  Can't take dependents Space A even in CONUS.  You have to wait till you're "activated"

Sec 622 of the 2013 NDAA authorized DoD to create a comprehensive Space Available program. Up until that point the latest guidance was some sort of joint transportation Reg from 1994.

Everyone got all excited and thought “Finally! After 12 solid years of fighting alongside our active component counterparts and countless mobilizations we finally get to take our spouses with us when we get home and go back to being drill status guardsmen! Horray!”

But…no. It never happened. So even though the NDAA authorizes it, someone has to actually do some work and create it.

[QAZqaz]

So anybody read the NCMAS final report? I found it bored one day on AMC epubs. Here's a link:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalsecurity.org%2Fmilitary%2Flibrary%2Freport%2F2020%2Fncmas_final_report_20201201.pdf&clen=6750997&chunk=true

Chapters 8 (additional duties) and 10 (bonus improvement) stuck out to me. Apparently there was a timeframe for a response from SECDEF of 120 days, but I have no idea where that timeframe lands and as far as I know there hasn't been a response.

Pretty interesting read, but it sure seems we are going the opposite direction WRT the bonus. One of the best quotes “'Additional Duties. . . We have an instructor pilot trying to get a forklift license.' —USAF Junior Officer"

 

[Magellan]

22 minutes ago, QAZqaz said:

Pretty interesting read, but it sure seems we are going the opposite direction WRT the bonus. One of the best quotes “'Additional Duties. . . We have an instructor pilot trying to get a forklift license.' —USAF Junior Officer"

So when I was a casual Lt back before ORE/ORIs ended having a forklift license was useful multiple times as opposed to waiting on loggies or MX folks to move our gear, and it even helped during a short notice ONE tasker.  This was back when C-Models started coming apart and where grounded UFN and we needed to pack a bunch of stuff right before Christmas for a CONUS deployment.

Honestly, I think it would be awesome if all the Lts waiting for pilot training got trained to drive buses, fork lifts, etc.  Because then the ops squadrons can just go to transportation check out the equipment, use it, and return it entirely on their schedule.  Plus then it would be easier to screen for buffoonerous personnel before people bend airplanes.  If you can't drive a bus or a forklift do we really want to trust you with an airplane?
 

[tac airlifter]

I send guys to get all manner of licenses before we deploy- forklift, 10k truck, etc.  We go to austere locations and it’s been a huge help to have this capability organic to our unit.  
 

That said, I empathize with the overall sentiment that line instructor pilots are tired of being forced to add non-flying responsibilities to their duties in order to cover for an organization unable to generate sufficient support.  It’s true, the AF sucks at helping you.  If you extend your ADSC, expect more of the same.  Posture future plans accordingly.

[QAZqaz]

2 hours ago, Magellan said:

So when I was a casual Lt back before ORE/ORIs ended having a forklift license was useful multiple times as opposed to waiting on loggies or MX folks to move our gear, and it even helped during a short notice ONE tasker.  This was back when C-Models started coming apart and where grounded UFN and we needed to pack a bunch of stuff right before Christmas for a CONUS deployment.

Honestly, I think it would be awesome if all the Lts waiting for pilot training got trained to drive buses, fork lifts, etc.  Because then the ops squadrons can just go to transportation check out the equipment, use it, and return it entirely on their schedule.  Plus then it would be easier to screen for buffoonerous personnel before people bend airplanes.  If you can't drive a bus or a forklift do we really want to trust you with an airplane?
 

That's kinda the point of the read. Yeah I'm sure it would be helpful to have people that are qualified, just like it would be more efficient to have all the rights of a personalist so I wouldn't have to keep going to the MPF to get 3x orders amendments because they don't know how to do their job. The argument is, support doesn't support, so we take on more responsibilities or else things don't get done. Doesn't mean that's how our time is best spent, though. 

[ThreeHoler]

ACE is literally “extra additional duties.”


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[Swizzle]

9 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

ACE is literally “extra additional duties.”


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A.dditional/A.lternate -- C.ombat -- E.xperience, eh?

Future downrange hypothetical story...So...this one deployment I was a forklift driver, next a copilot, another a bus driver, and latest 'rote my own IPR/Personelist/Finance/CE/secretary/Comm-troop/Aircraft CC...what could go wrong besides all those passwords/login deadlines/currencies on an epic collision course culminating in ____insert your fate here (i.e. futility testing more with less, repeatedly)___

[Sua Sponte]

15 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I send guys to get all manner of licenses before we deploy- forklift, 10k truck, etc.  We go to austere locations and it’s been a huge help to have this capability organic to our unit.  
 

That said, I empathize with the overall sentiment that line instructor pilots are tired of being forced to add non-flying responsibilities to their duties in order to cover for an organization unable to generate sufficient support.  It’s true, the AF sucks at helping you.  If you extend your ADSC, expect more of the same.  Posture future plans accordingly.

Are you in a CRW/CRG? If you're going to austere locations, isn't that what they're for?

[SocialD]

Ya man, I'm going to have to cut my IPUG debrief short...gotta go get my tow-motor training/license.  LOL.  

[tac airlifter]

6 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Are you in a CRW/CRG? If you're going to austere locations, isn't that what they're for?

I am not.  There’s a whole different Air Force out there.  

20 minutes ago, SocialD said:

Ya man, I'm going to have to cut my IPUG debrief short...gotta go get my tow-motor training/license.  LOL.  

It’s motherhood just like tanking is for you: enabling movement to target.  What if your yo-yo plan was landing on a blacked out dirt strip to drive your own fuel truck to FARP, and the better you do it the quicker you return to a TIC?  Not so silly anymore.  
 

that’s an extreme example, although valid.  Mostly it’s to move luggage pallets quicker!

[SocialD]

23 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

What if your yo-yo plan was landing on a blacked out dirt strip to drive your own fuel truck to FARP, and the better you do it the quicker you return to a TIC?  Not so silly anymore.  

 

Ya, I was being a bit flippant in my comment. But it's a bit silly in my scenario due to the vacuum cleaner of an underslung intake on the jet.  That FARP better plan on a few engine swaps.  I've changed a few engines back in my enlisted days, it might be a tough gig in a FARP. 😂 

 

But seriously, in this scenario, are we just leaving fuel trucks in the middle of nowhere with noone around?  Maybe we are...but I'm not sure I'd trust the fuel. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

that’s an extreme example, although valid.  Mostly it’s to move luggage pallets quicker!

 

If we're not at a FARP scenario anymore, who is building those pallets that you need to move quicker?  Why not have an additional troop there to move stuff.  Is the next step to have you land, go build up the pallets yourselves, then go?  Seems more prudent to build up our CRG type units than to keep piling duties onto one person.  I get the ACE idea, but at some point, it gets a bit crazy to expect good outcomes if you continue to pile up the duties. 

[QAZqaz]

11 hours ago, Swizzle said:

A.dditional/A.lternate -- C.ombat -- E.xperience, eh?

Future downrange hypothetical story...So...this one deployment I was a forklift driver, next a copilot, another a bus driver, and latest 'rote my own IPR/Personelist/Finance/CE/secretary/Comm-troop/Aircraft CC...what could go wrong besides all those passwords/login deadlines/currencies on an epic collision course culminating in ____insert your fate here (i.e. futility testing more with less, repeatedly)___

LOL. 

It is funny that a 100k/yr bonus was recommended and they actually chose to go the opposite direction w/ worse terms (that said this report came out after the 2021 ACP was decided, however the Rand study did not). I just want to hear one person who has been in these conversations explain why they chose to ignore recommendations. If I was a betting man, the status-quo will continue with the 2022 ACP. In 2023 once they realize that a mistake was made, they will up it to the past 35k/yr to get a marginally higher take rate and call it a success. 

[hindsight2020]

46 minutes ago, QAZqaz said:

LOL. 

It is funny that a 100k/yr bonus was recommended and they actually chose to go the opposite direction w/ worse terms (that said this report came out after the 2021 ACP was decided, however the Rand study did not). I just want to hear one person who has been in these conversations explain why they chose to ignore recommendations. If I was a betting man, the status-quo will continue with the 2022 ACP. In 2023 once they realize that a mistake was made, they will up it to the past 35k/yr to get a marginally higher take rate and call it a success. 

It's not lack of awareness, it's straight up (however sclerotic) game theory application. They have a reductionist view of airline hiring cycles since oh say, the end of the vietnam war (and definitively post deregulation). They will always short-call airline hiring predictions. That's why things like the FY21 AvB offerings are allowed to manifest in spite of real world a-word hiring intel they are privy to, especially in the age of the internet.

I forget I'm one of the old crusty guys on here now, so I catch myself repeating the spiel, but I'll do it anyways: They'll always play run-the-clock offense, even when they're behind. It's not a bug to them, it's a feature. This is because even though in a game with no ADSC such decisions would get them sacked out of office, that's not the game we're playing here. You AD critters should know that better than anyone.

At the pilot occupational level, they staff and manage this place like a regional airline. So, treat your ADSC contract like you work for the best paid regional airline, and a lot of this lamenting is self-limiting. If you pursue an extension of your one-sided contract, do so with eyes wide open. And to be clear, there are reasons why it's ok to be a "regional lifer" (ask me how I know). No right or wrong answer, only the right or wrong answer for each individual and /or dependent family.

Happy New Year.

[ThreeHoler]

Just wait until the advanced training ADSC comes back within the year. They fixed the glitch.


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[ImNotARobot]

At the pilot occupational level, they staff and manage this place like a regional airline. So, treat your ADSC contract like you work for the best paid regional airline, and a lot of this lamenting is self-limiting. If you pursue an extension of your one-sided contract, do so with eyes wide open. And to be clear, there are reasons why it's ok to be a "regional lifer" (ask me how I know). No right or wrong answer, only the right or wrong answer for each individual and /or dependent family.
Happy New Year.

“treat your ADSC contract like you work for the best paid regional airline, and a lot of this lamenting is self-limiting. If you pursue an extension of your one-sided contract, do so with eyes wide open.”

What a prolific analogy. Excellent work.

[pawnman]

34 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Just wait until the advanced training ADSC comes back within the year. They fixed the glitch.


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Just wait until people decline ADSCs for instructor upgrade or requal.

That'll REALLY help the manning. 

[hindsight2020]

24 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Just wait until people decline ADSCs for instructor upgrade or requal.

That'll REALLY help the manning. 

 

Yeah, given how people in my prior community would dodge the IP stink like their life depended on it (mostly out of a desire to retain the ability get out of the MWS with AFPC, for duty station dearth reasons), I don't see how it would be in the staffing's interest to open a door and allow folks to legally opt out of an upgrade via ADSC declination. Much better to use them and lose them in situ for whatever balance of time they already have, especially given said management class is on the record stating that retention doesn't matter to them anyways.

But, these bonehead careerists never look past their own command/staff tour, so it wouldn't surprise me if they bungled that too just like they bungled the FY21 short call.

[StoleIt]

1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

Just wait until the advanced training ADSC comes back within the year. They fixed the glitch.


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Wait...Seriously? Is that really a COA they are pursuing or is this speculation/sarcasm?

I know a lot of different programs are bringing back ADSC's (TPS, WIC, 89th, etc) but that's the first I've heard of upgrades.

[Hunter Rose]

47 minutes ago, StoleIt said:

Wait...Seriously? Is that really a COA they are pursuing or is this speculation/sarcasm?

I know a lot of different programs are bringing back ADSC's (TPS, WIC, 89th, etc) but that's the first I've heard of upgrades.

It's sarcasm.

Although big Air Force did try this, what, 5-6 years ago? It lasted all of a week I think. Once the reg was published, pilots adamantly refused to accept ADSC for upgrade. Once Big AF realized the pilots called their bluff, they relented.

Who knows, though.  The Generals/Colonels who champion keeping pilots have proven time and time again what utterly clueless morons they are, so I guess it wouldn't really surprise me if they tried it again.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Hunter Rose

[Magellan]

4 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

So, treat your ADSC contract like you work for the best paid regional airline, and a lot of this lamenting is self-limiting. If you pursue an extension of your one-sided contract, do so with eyes wide open. And to be clear, there are reasons why it's ok to be a "regional lifer" (ask me how I know). No right or wrong answer, only the right or wrong answer for each individual and /or dependent family.

So what is life like for a regional airline pilot?  Asking for a friend...

[hindsight2020]

1 hour ago, Magellan said:

So what is life like for a regional airline pilot?  Asking for a friend...

I was being allegorical. I'm a different kind of lifer.

[FourFans]

12 hours ago, SocialD said:

But seriously, in this scenario, are we just leaving fuel trucks in the middle of nowhere with noone around?

...you might be surprised what really happens these days...

[StoleIt]

4 hours ago, Hunter Rose said:

It's sarcasm.

Although big Air Force did try this, what, 5-6 years ago? It lasted all of a week I think. Once the reg was published, pilots adamantly refused to accept ADSC for upgrade. Once Big AF realized the pilots called their bluff, they relented.

Who knows, though.  The Generals/Colonels who champion keeping pilots have proven time and time again what utterly clueless morons they are, so I guess it wouldn't really surprise me if they tried it again.

Copy.

What's scary is it seems like a realistic thing the brass would try.

[brickhistory]

20 hours ago, pawnman said:

Just wait until people decline ADSCs for instructor upgrade or requal.

That'll REALLY help the manning.