Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[brabus]

7 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot

Great post Danger. Just wanted to highlight this one part directed at a general audience…a big YMMV, but I punted airlines for a while due to this belief. But reality is even if you’re flying a “full” schedule of say 16 days, that’s 2 weeks of a month you’re doing 0% work, not even getting texts about work. Now let’s throw in the thousands of games you can play in the airlines schedule/money wise that can reduce that work-money ratio significantly in your favor. It’s worth considering what “home between airline trips” is compared to “home while working for the AF.” And FWIW, there are tons of schedules out there that are not some heinous 5 on/2 off, repeat…unless you’re in the regionals.

To be clear, not a spear at your personal plan or your reasons (I think they’re great), but more just putting this out there for guys like past me. Talk to your airline bros before immediately passing on the idea because “I don’t want to be gone from home all the time.” It’s far more nuanced than that. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by brabus

[DuckHunter]

@Danger41Well said.

I am in a similar boat to you.  I am also a guy who was denied VSP in 2014 and had a reserve job and separation date in March 2020 and the rest is history.  I hit submit on my apps the first week of March only to be told the second week everything was freezing for who knows how long.

My wife came clean and said she liked the stability of the AF, I wasn’t thrilled about working two jobs (reserve and airlines), so we decided to stay in.  I took the three year bonus, this is my last year so this interests me to see what the AF does.

In my opinion, if they do this “revamping” of the bonus right they can keep some fringe guys and start with a clean slate.  Big IF though, the AF has fooled me way more than once.

All that being said, I’m happy as well for the guys getting out.  I hope their careers have no turmoil, and I’ll most likely be calling them in 5.5 years for some recommendations.  But for me, that will all be with the peace of mind of an O-5 retirement.

[Chida]

:For apples-apples comparison:

Airline+AFRES guy here: My avg days off/mo was ~17, or 209 total days off in the past 12 months.

And that's actual days off, meaning at home, no duty, not commuting (I live in base). That number will improve when I retire from AFRES pretty soon here.

Compare that to when I was RegAF. The avg days off baseline was ~12 days/mo (includes 30 days' leave, weekends, holidays, and family days), 153 days off total. Then throw in weekend TDYs and deployments and that number goes down considerably.

[di1630]

:For apples-apples comparison:
Airline+AFRES guy here: My avg days off/mo was ~17, or 209 total days off in the past 12 months.
And that's actual days off, meaning at home, no duty, not commuting (I live in base). That number will improve when I retire from AFRES pretty soon here.
Compare that to when I was RegAF. The avg days off baseline was ~12 days/mo (includes 30 days' leave, weekends, holidays, and family days), 153 days off total. Then throw in weekend TDYs and deployments and that number goes down considerably.

What’s your airline seniority have to be to get that type of deal?

[BFM this]

5 hours ago, di1630 said:

What’s your airline seniority have to be to get that type of deal?

Not rock bottom, but about 12.5k at a 15k legacy.

6 nights out of my own bed this month, in base.  Should improve next year going to WB/FO. 

No ang/res as I'm a proud member of the check of the month club.

[tac airlifter]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:38 PM, Danger41 said:

I know financially it makes sense to get to the airlines ASAFP and never look back. I unfortunately suffer from delusions of grandeur and Stockholm Syndrome and don't really want to leave the job that I wanted to get for my entire life. I'm also not totally selfish and know that my family could really benefit from the extra $$ in an airline career. In my current and future job I will absolutely be gone from home more as an airline guy than an AF pilot. YMMV on that one, big time. It's a no brainer to me that (in my own situation) the only extenuating variable is money. Why not pay up?

I have a unique perspective on all this stuff though as my dad was an airline pilot that went through not getting hired for awhile, mergers, furloughs, and 9/11. He punched early after 9/11 to try to get back in the AF as a 59 year old retired O-5 but they didn't want him to fly tankers so he just retired. Even I tried to jump right to the airlines in mid-2020 and that wasn't exactly good timing. All that to say is that I know more about the airlines than the average Joe that never experienced any of that stuff and has just been living the good life the last few years.

Honestly the hardest part for me is thinking back on some missions where my crew and the team writ large was able to make a big difference and bring Americans home from some pretty hairy situations. I know that's stupid and you've got to move on but that type of feeling is nagging me more than I thought it would. 

 

Great post; I understand your sentiments exactly and I wish you the best with your decision. The Air Force and nation are better with people like you in it.  I fear our service is unable to intelligently manage our most precious resource: you and others similarly motivated to fly fight win.  I salute you for remaining, empathize with your addiction to combat, and genuinely hope the aforementioned pay increases are codified into law. 

[Chida]

I started realizing a lot of time off with the confluence of a number of factors:

1. Switching my ARC job from Cat A to Cat E. With Cat A I was working 6 days/mo. With Cat E it's more like <1 day/mo on a 12 mo avg.

2. Receiving vacation from my airline. The first year of employment you won't have vacation bc you are earning it. Depending on when you join the company, your 2nd yr will have some vacation, but not a full bag. So your 3rd year you will have a full bag of vacation, whatever that may be.

3. Getting enough seniority to bid a good schedule (not reserve, since the company can extend me by a day or two, depending, once per month). The seniority required is top 75 to 80% of the list, which coincided, approx, with beginning of my 3rd year.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Chida

[Smokin]

11 hours ago, Chida said:

2. Receiving vacation from my airline. The first year of employment you won't have vacation bc you are earning it. Depending on when you join the company, your 2nd yr will have some vacation, but not a full bag. So your 3rd year you will have a full bag of vacation, whatever that may be.

3. Getting enough seniority to bid a good schedule (not reserve, since the company can extend me by a day or two, depending, once per month). The seniority required is top 75 to 80% of the list, which coincided, approx, with beginning of my 3rd year.

Company dependent.  I bid my yearly vacation while in my second week at my initial sim qual.  I had to ask my sim partner what this whole "vacation bid" was and how to do it.

Reserve is timing and company dependent.  I had good luck with timing the airlines, but I had a schedule my 3rd or 4th month after my check ride.  Wasn't a great schedule, but it wasn't reserve either.  I also know a guy that literally never sat reserve.  Got a line the month after his check ride.

[Chida]

Of course it's company dependent. I thought that went without saying, but maybe not. The commercial flying world is not a monolith. I can only speak from my perspective at this moment in time. My perspective is as a UPS Airlines pilot with 5 years on property and an AFRES liaison to CAP.

But for real, here's what I observe: it wouldn't matter if I said you get a half milly and work 5 days/mo. Those who are "on the fence", "not quite sure" would still stay in RegAF. The devil is always in the details, meaning, you gotta do the math! There is no shortcut to doing the math! Glossing over the "details" or thinking that all airlines are more/less the same: No, not at all.

[DirkDiggler]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:43 PM, Homestar said:

I feel you there. Though I didn't have a lifetime dream of flying in the Air Force growing up.

There is more to flying in the Air Force than a paycheck. I enjoy my job. I like my coworkers. Job satisfaction is high for me right now. I'm also at the end of my career and am transitioning to the civilian sector where my flying training will be properly valued (at least by second year pay--I don't believe that the airlines pay well out of the goodness of their heart). I'm proud of what I've done in the Air Force, I'm grateful for the places I've been, the people I've met, and the missions I've flown.

So many people in life are just angry. Angry at "the Air Force", angry at "the libs", angry at whatever. I also understand that many have had negative experiences in the Air Force. I have too. I was non-vol'd to Afghanistan for 364.5 days during a time where Greens were killing Blues. But I also had doors open from that experience that served me well later in my career.

I wish I made $300/hr plus profit sharing in the Air Force. I'd stay longer. But the money has been good enough and now I'm moving on. And a great big "thank you" for those who leave after their UPT commitment is up too! You served. Most Americans can't say the same. Go make that bank. Buy that boat, plane, or second wife. Enjoy life. Be happy.

Staying in the Air Force isn't for everyone. But it is for some.

Great post and very well said.

[bad_timing]

Draft says: "    (b) Rated Officers Described.--Rated officers... (2) who have not more than three years and not less than one year remaining on an active duty service obligation under section 653 of title 10, United States Code."

But 37 U.S. Code § 334 says eligibility is based on if the officer: "has completed any active duty service commitment incurred for undergraduate aviator training or is within one year of completing such commitment;"

 

I wonder if eligibility is expanding in order to lock people in earlier? And with the 1-year verbiage differing between the two, I wonder what this all means for FY23 eligibles that would be at <1 year left on the ADSC if this takes effect for the AvB program early next year.

[StoleIt]

44 minutes ago, bad_timing said:

Draft says: "    (b) Rated Officers Described.--Rated officers... (2) who have not more than three years and not less than one year remaining on an active duty service obligation under section 653 of title 10, United States Code."

So if you're inside of one year remaining you are ineligible for the bonus? Am I comprehending that right?

[viperdriver1313]

So my UPT ADSC expires in aug 2023, I couldn’t sign the bonus last year because I wasn’t eligible yet; and now this wording seems like I won’t be eligible because I will have <1 year. WTF…

[bad_timing]

22 minutes ago, viperdriver1313 said:

So my UPT ADSC expires in aug 2023, I couldn’t sign the bonus last year because I wasn’t eligible yet; and now this wording seems like I won’t be eligible because I will have <1 year. WTF…

I'm in the same boat. Maybe the $35k cap would apply to guys like us under 37 U.S. Code § 334, and there will be a separate pool of eligibles for the "demonstration program" that goes up to $50k? Who knows.

[viperdriver1313]

I was excited to see the Air Force offer a good deal.. 

Looks like my salt level will remain in the hypernatremia regime. 
 

[SocialD]

41 minutes ago, bad_timing said:

I'm in the same boat. Maybe the $35k cap would apply to guys like us under 37 U.S. Code § 334, and there will be a separate pool of eligibles for the "demonstration program" that goes up to $50k? Who knows.

 

 

Username checks!

[StoleIt]

5 hours ago, viperdriver1313 said:

So my UPT ADSC expires in aug 2023, I couldn’t sign the bonus last year because I wasn’t eligible yet; and now this wording seems like I won’t be eligible because I will have <1 year. WTF…

5 hours ago, bad_timing said:

I'm in the same boat. Maybe the $35k cap would apply to guys like us under 37 U.S. Code § 334, and there will be a separate pool of eligibles for the "demonstration program" that goes up to $50k? Who knows.

If you two were looking for a sign for whether or not to stay in or go airlines...just saying...

[DuckHunter]

[pawnman]

33 minutes ago, DuckHunter said:

So we continue to study the problem. 

I feel like I've been hearing the "study" line for my entire career. 

[tac airlifter]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So we continue to study the problem. 

I feel like I've been hearing the "study" line for my entire career. 

100% agree.  Now that I’m at the end of my career, I finally see this for what it is: tactics of a failing bureaucracy.  Stall, delay decision until survey results, lose survey results, further study the problem, convene a committee and of course it takes time to select committee members, etc.  In fact, proficiency at these tactics is a chief indicator of which senior officer is ready for another star; battlefield results are irrelevant and accountability for failure in combat is zero.

If I could identify one single characteristic which is the thread tying together multiple failings of our military, small senseless policies to massive strategic failure, it would be this: combat success does not equal career success and career success can be had without combat success.  If we promoted people who valued combat success above all else, everything would resolve logically including the aviation bonus.

[Swizzle]

1 hour ago, DuckHunter said:

Red teaming this: So they’ll run out of $, maybe, thus BoP will go only to those hard to fill locations (i.e. Del. Can.-Kun. Etc.)…

 

[Majestik Møøse]

Increasing the bonus by $50,000 per year would cost a few hundred million, or 0.1% of the Air Force budget. That’s money that would directly decrease LM and NG income, while starving the airlines of their free pilot training program. In turn, you get happier pilots that’ll be more experienced to fight a war you never actually plan to get into.

[brabus]

208 pages in - the answer is still “don’t do it!” and go enjoy a far better life in the ANG, airlines, insert-other-passion job, etc. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by brabus

[SocialD]

12 minutes ago, brabus said:

208 pages in - the answer is still “don’t do it!” and go enjoy a far better life in the ANG, airlines, insert-other-passion job, etc. 

 

This...part time is the way!  

[Danger41]

I only somewhat snarkily ask this, but what is the ACTF doing daily? The word of this has been out for months. Why would they wait until now to "study" it. This is a massive (and IMO, the best) retention tool available and they should have already worked this math problem out.

I don't know if anyone senior is actually looking at this site, but from one of the few AD guys from my YG, let me speak on behalf of the bros. I've had several (10+) folks that have become eligible for the bonus that have asked me for info on this. They are all intrigued and would likely sign on for the higher amount. A very common refrain is that they aren't too jazzed about going to the airlines, want to continue flying for the AD, but it doesn't make sense financially. I know that's an atom splitting revelation to say, but that's the ground truth. Pay these people and they will stay AD. I don't know why that's such a tough concept.