Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, BFM this said:

Well...neither are any other employers within our career field, if we're being completely intellectually honest about it.  In fact, I'm not sure any career other than finance or corporate senior execs are coming close, but I am standing by for correction.

In the defense of industry though the pay is generally higher all around. You don't need to be *as reactive* with these things when you're paying people on par with their skill set to begin with. 

I also think a major problem for the DoD at the moment is the moral injury left by the defeat in GWOT. When you rely on "service to your country" as a significant portion of your compensation package but then fail to deliver ends in that nature you're going to have a whole generation of young people saying "couldnt I do more good for the world somewhere else?" And the problem is.... right now, they absolutely can.

[viperdriver1313]

What’s the game-plan when most everyone leaves for the airlines at 10 years? Increase production from 1,200 to 2,000? With what new UPT base/IP cadre?

Everyone I know is prepping for exit (I think I only know 2-3 dudes who are in for the 20 years). Not that I know everything/it’s a small pool of people-but I’m guessing the consensus is the same across most of the communities.

things are about to get interesting…

[Swizzle]

16 minutes ago, viperdriver1313 said:

//… //

things are about to get interesting…

They already are, but no one is around to notice!!

[nsplayr]

20 year pilot commitment would be the nuclear option but I guarantee a lot of young & dumb dudes would sign it for a chance to fly mil jets. Probably not enough, but we already don’t have enough. I hope they figure out another way!

[hindsight2020]

9 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

20 year pilot commitment would be the nuclear option but I guarantee a lot of young & dumb dudes would sign it for a chance to fly mil jets. Probably not enough, but we already don’t have enough. I hope they figure out another way!

A 20 year UFT RSC (Guard/Res)? Sure, I can see that preserving accessions traction. A 20 yr UFT ADSC? No chance that'd gain any traction.

 

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, viperdriver1313 said:

What’s the game-plan when most everyone leaves for the airlines at 10 years?

I don't think the AF feels that it needs pilots for 20 years in order to get a return on the investment. Sure, they want some to stay to be Sq/CCs, Wg/CCs, etc., but generally I think that they're not too concerned about the 10 year attrition rate.

[CaptainMorgan]

20 year pilot commitment would be the nuclear option but I guarantee a lot of young & dumb dudes would sign it for a chance to fly mil jets. Probably not enough, but we already don’t have enough. I hope they figure out another way!

It’s bad enough when we have pilot GOs running things. Imagine if Navs ever took charge.


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[HeloDude]

3 hours ago, nsplayr said:

20 year pilot commitment would be the nuclear option but I guarantee a lot of young & dumb dudes would sign it for a chance to fly mil jets. Probably not enough, but we already don’t have enough. I hope they figure out another way!

There is currently no shortage of eligible candidates who want to attend pilot training and incur the current ADSC.  

[nsplayr]

14 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

It’s bad enough when we have pilot GOs running things. Imagine if Navs ever took charge.

Just to be clear, I in no way support a 20 year pilot ADSC, I’m just saying that’s the ultimate way to assure retention - not letting people leave from day 1.

[Lawman]

Just to be clear, I in no way support a 20 year pilot ADSC, I’m just saying that’s the ultimate way to assure retention - not letting people leave from day 1.

Sadly it would also raise the collective quality of individuals at the higher echelons of career.

It’s no secret a whole lot of quality people with options and brains to be successful by and large leave, especially now with the pension having been changed to less lucrative from what it was. We are left with a depleted total talent pool to make LtCols out of… now while you effectively make the careerist mindset more cutthroat you also make it far easier to S-can that guy who can barely spell and shouldn’t be running a lemonade stand much less a squadron.


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[StoleIt]

I could also see the AF pitching 20 year pilot ADSC's.

Which should be considered a predatory loan or some sort of indentured servitude, though. There needs to be some sort of mechanism to protect enthusiastic, misguided, brainwashed 21 year-old's from an exploitative and unfair contract.

I could totally see enthusiastic, ROTC cadet, past me signing that. And, in that scenario, current me would 100% hate and loath my former ROTC Cadre for basically being willing to knowingly sell me into an unfair, biased, and unconscionable contract.

Let's hope that COA (and stop loss) are never seriously considered by the geniuses at the ARTF & AFPC.

[Danger41]

I guarantee I would’ve signed that at 22.

[Lawman]

I guarantee I would’ve signed that at 22.

“I’m gonna get to fly Jets right?”

Let’s just admit the only difference better the 20 year old versions of ourselves and others who decided to trade it in for something is the type of couch we were sitting on when we “agreed to it.”


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[Guardian]

Then Douche generals like Goldfien will sit you behind a desk for 15 of your 20 because you are a volunteer.

[HeloDude]

4 hours ago, StoleIt said:

Which should be considered a predatory loan or some sort of indentured servitude, though. There needs to be some sort of mechanism to protect enthusiastic, misguided, brainwashed 21 year-old's from an exploitative and unfair contract.

If 20 years is “predatory”, then what isn’t?  18 years, 16 years?…10 years?

And young people sign contracts/documents that can change their lives all the time…a regular enlistment, purchasing a house, a school loan, changing your genitals, you name it.  You’re either an adult (who can vote for a president with the ability to destroy nations), or you’re not.

It’s not that young people don’t often know what they’re signing…it’s just that at the time they’re ok with it.  How many people are happy when they get married vs those who get divorced.  It’s a future-them problem.

[StoleIt]

53 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If 20 years is “predatory”, then what isn’t?  18 years, 16 years?…10 years?

And young people sign contracts/documents that can change their lives all the time…a regular enlistment, purchasing a house, a school loan, changing your genitals, you name it.  You’re either an adult (who can vote for a president with the ability to destroy nations), or you’re not.

It’s not that young people don’t often know what they’re signing…it’s just that at the time they’re ok with it.  How many people are happy when they get married vs those who get divorced.  It’s a future-them problem.

I could at least believe, or stomach, that it's a 10 year ADSC because of the "cost" of training us...or so I was told. Has the cost gone up? I'd argue it's gone down with all the cuts in flying training. Allegedly, the ADSC used to be part of a financial investment calculus...if they increase it any it's just a retention tool, IMO.

Also, all those other contracts you mentioned (except school loans), you can bail on in some way or another (and Biden gave the school loan people $10k anyway).

Imagine if marriage really was until death...how many Kings created new branches of Christianity just because they changed their mind?

[Clark Griswold]

The adsc should be linked to the amount of / quality of training 

The more they cut in flight hours the less Congress should let them set high adscs 

 

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, StoleIt said:

I could at least believe, or stomach, that it's a 10 year ADSC because of the "cost" of training us...or so I was told. Has the cost gone up? I'd argue it's gone down with all the cuts in flying training. Allegedly, the ADSC used to be part of a financial investment calculus...if they increase it any it's just a retention tool, IMO.

Also, all those other contracts you mentioned (except school loans), you can bail on in some way or another (and Biden gave the school loan people $10k anyway).

Imagine if marriage really was until death...how many Kings created new branches of Christianity just because they changed their mind?

I doubt it’s a cost thing because the Navy doesn’t require 10 years, and I doubt they have the WalMart brand F-18s just to save money. 
 

When I was in Navy flight school, after winging helo guys only had a seven year comittment, everyone else had eight. They changed it to eight for everyone around 2006-7.

If I were to guess, the AF set it at 10 because they felt that’s what they could get dudes to agree to without negatively impacting accessions. I know if I was 22 and told I had to sign a 20 year contract, I have said hell no. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Bigred

[Bigred]

3 minutes ago, Bigred said:

I doubt it’s a cost thing because the Navy doesn’t require 10 years, and I doubt they have the WalMart brand F-18s just to save money. 
 

When I was in Navy flight school, after winging helo guys only had a seven year comittment, everyone else had eight. They changed it to eight for everyone around 2006-7.

If I were to guess, the AF set it at 10 because they felt that’s what they could get dudes to agree to without negatively impacting accessions. I know if I was 22 and told I had to sign a 20 year contract, I would have said hell no. 

 

 

 

[guineapigfury]

9 hours ago, StoleIt said:

I could also see the AF pitching 20 year pilot ADSC's.

Which should be considered a predatory loan or some sort of indentured servitude, though. There needs to be some sort of mechanism to protect enthusiastic, misguided, brainwashed 21 year-old's from an exploitative and unfair contract.

I could totally see enthusiastic, ROTC cadet, past me signing that. And, in that scenario, current me would 100% hate and loath my former ROTC Cadre for basically being willing to knowingly sell me into an unfair, biased, and unconscionable contract.

Let's hope that COA (and stop loss) are never seriously considered by the geniuses at the ARTF & AFPC.

The mechanism is getting passed over for promotion twice.  Then you're a free agent.  It worked for me.  I loved telling people that I had two years left on my ADSC while I walked around with a beard and polo shirt and hands in my pockets.  That said 20 year contracts are unconscionable.

[CaptainMorgan]

The mechanism is getting passed over for promotion twice.  Then you're a free agent.  It worked for me.  I loved telling people that I had two years left on my ADSC while I walked around with a beard and polo shirt and hands in my pockets.  That said 20 year contracts are unconscionable.

Twice passed over might be a thing of the past as they transition to the 5-look system.


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[Lawman]

Twice passed over might be a thing of the past as they transition to the 5-look system.


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Or realize there are literally more non flying stupid jobs than can possibly be staffed, and now you’ve got a population that literally can’t threaten walking papers. “Oh you didn’t make O4/5/6 and are now 3 years AZ. Well I have this opportunity at Fort Polk….”

Like I said, the careerist mindset will be a lot more cutthroat. Not because you’re trying to make rank, but more because you’re trying to “stay in the air conditioning.”


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[Standby]

NDAA 2023 authorizes service secretaries to approve an increase to the flight pay cap from $1000/mo to $1500/mo. Additionally, authorizes bonus yearly cap increase to $50k/yr.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Standby

[viperdriver1313]

My guess is they have to up everything to what they authorize (50k/1500).

These new airline contracts that can somewhat follow suit to delta will make it an interesting timeline and good for anyone. 

[Swizzle]

Watch, it will take a full year to implement…