Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[BroncoEN]

5 hours ago, brabus said:

ANG usually is around that time, but never seems to be exactly coincident with AD. Do you have a line number!?

Thanks for the info! Yea I have a line number, AGR might be right due to family circumstances for a bit… TBD 

[HeyWatchThis]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:49 PM, nsplayr said:

Dude this kind of shit infuriates me. Congress passed a law, it's signed by the President, it directs the DoD to do X,Y, or Z. The DoD then fails to take any action, can't update AFIs in a timely fashion, provides vague or no business rule guidance or policy memos, and then just fucking gets away with it sometimes for YEARS. If I were a Congressman I would unscrew heads and start shitting down necks until the law was implemented.

This same thing has happened with the 2021 NDAA expanded baby leave on the Guard side. I've literally been told I (and quite a few other guys in my unit) fall into an "unfortunate Catch-22" that prevents us from taking the leave...it's shenanigans. We had babies (well, our wives did, thanks dear!), we earned the leave, but we can't take it, what kind of fuckery is that? Our local-level commanders are pissed and sympathetic, but they are hamstrung by MAJCOM and NGB nonners who are saying it can't be done.

An officer's job, IMHO, is to receive intent from his/her superiors all the way up to the NCA, and then apply his/her knowledge, skills, leadership, creativity and ingenuity in order to meet that intent with appropriate effects on the battlefield, however that is defined for your career field.

Somehow every single one (ok, to be fair, 99.69%) of our personnelists and finance officers seems to have missed that very important lesson from their commissioning source and subsequent PME. As a group, they are pedantic, lawyerly, miserly bean counter shoe clerks who treat every single dollar as if it's coming out of their own personal wallet and scour every single potentially beneficial personnel policy for loopholes and ways they can fuck people over rather than implementing the intent of the policy as written.

/rant off

Well looks like the Air Force's lap dog agrees with not paying us the full flight pay:

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA669-1.html

Key Findings

• The yearly cost increase associated with paying members of the RC risk pay and flight pay at the full monthly rate would range from $46.3 million to $88.5 million annually, or 100 percent to 194 percent over the baseline of $45.7 million annually. Although the cost increase would represent a substantial increase in the S&I pay budget, it would be small relative to the overall RC personnel budget: less than 0.4 percent for fiscal year 2021.
• RC members serve more periods per month than the stereotypical one weekend per month and two weeks in the summer. The implication is that the cost increase associated with a full-rate S&I pay policy is less than expected because RC members are already paid closer to the full monthly rate than expected.
• The number of RC members who would qualify or would potentially qualify for either hazardous duty incentive pay or aviation incentive pay in a given month ranges from 17,796 to 379,148 (out of more than 800,000 total members).
• The full-rate policy could reduce incentives to participate in the RC for more than the minimum required training periods. Thus, the full-rate policy would adversely affect readiness. Furthermore, the full monthly rate policy would be inefficient because it would increase costs while potentially reducing participation—i.e., paying more for less.

From my scientific research (IE asking around the sq) this is not the story I've gathered but I'm sure their simulations are smarter than asking actual people.......I know in my small corner of the woods a lot of our min runners (IE dudes who show up MAYBE once a quarter would actually start flying at least a local once a month....

My guess is will be the BS ammo they try and present Congress to get out of paying us full flight pay....

[Scooter14]

Well looks like the Air Force's lap dog agrees with not paying us the full flight pay:

Sadly I’m not surprised one bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[FLEA]

21 hours ago, HeyWatchThis said:

Well looks like the Air Force's lap dog agrees with not paying us the full flight pay:

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA669-1.html

Key Findings

• The yearly cost increase associated with paying members of the RC risk pay and flight pay at the full monthly rate would range from $46.3 million to $88.5 million annually, or 100 percent to 194 percent over the baseline of $45.7 million annually. Although the cost increase would represent a substantial increase in the S&I pay budget, it would be small relative to the overall RC personnel budget: less than 0.4 percent for fiscal year 2021.
• RC members serve more periods per month than the stereotypical one weekend per month and two weeks in the summer. The implication is that the cost increase associated with a full-rate S&I pay policy is less than expected because RC members are already paid closer to the full monthly rate than expected.
• The number of RC members who would qualify or would potentially qualify for either hazardous duty incentive pay or aviation incentive pay in a given month ranges from 17,796 to 379,148 (out of more than 800,000 total members).
• The full-rate policy could reduce incentives to participate in the RC for more than the minimum required training periods. Thus, the full-rate policy would adversely affect readiness. Furthermore, the full monthly rate policy would be inefficient because it would increase costs while potentially reducing participation—i.e., paying more for less.

From my scientific research (IE asking around the sq) this is not the story I've gathered but I'm sure their simulations are smarter than asking actual people.......I know in my small corner of the woods a lot of our min runners (IE dudes who show up MAYBE once a quarter would actually start flying at least a local once a month....

My guess is will be the BS ammo they try and present Congress to get out of paying us full flight pay....

How the fuck does any person with a general sense of reason and logic come to the bolded conclusion? "If we pay them more they will work less, so don't pay them more!" WTF? 

[brabus]

I don’t see how there is a single correlation between flight pay amount and effort at work. Higher flight pay is one tool to make the overall compensation higher in an attempt to keep guys from jumping to the airlines, that’s all it does. Rand took a massive swing and a miss on this one. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by brabus

[jice]

37 minutes ago, brabus said:

I don’t see how there is a single correlation between flight pay amount and effort at work. Higher flight pay is one tool to make the overall compensation higher in an attempt to keep guys from jumping to the airlines, that’s all it does. Rand took a massive swing and a miss on this one. 

They didn’t consider military compensation in the context of folks’ overall compensation.

If they had, RAND would realize that (in the case of AvIP) most folks are making an economically irrational decision to show up at all.

Again, every A1 at every level should have a permanent labor economist on staff… but we’d probably pay just enough to find the worst ones. 

[jice]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

How the does any person with a general sense of reason and logic come to the bolded conclusion? "If we pay them more they will work less, so don't pay them more!" WTF? 

IF the incentive pay were the primary source of income AND human beings were rational actors, this would be a reasonable conclusion. Meet the min, get the pay, do other stuff… but very few are paying the gas bill with special pay from the RC. 
 

BUT human beings are not always rational actors, especially military members who are specifically excluded from most income/compensation studies for exactly that reason. Turns out patriotism/flying with the boys/guilt have a dollar value… that the military insists is a magic power rather than a form of compensation.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by jice

[HeyWatchThis]

A silver lining might be the fact that the DoD had to prove it would be "detrimental to the force" to justify not paying the full amount.  RAND also hedged their answer by admitting that the increase in flight pay would increase the number of people wanting to join the guard/reserve.  So according to them, individual participation would decrease but recruiting/retention numbers would increase.

The language in the NDAA has bipartisan support so probably just my bias coming out but I don't think this report is the smoking gun the DoD I'm sure was hoping for but still frustrating from our perspective.  I honestly don't get the level of effort the AF/DoD puts into NOT paying us...

[Danger41]

Is this the 1500 a month maxed out flight pay discussion for Reserve component (is that RC)? Any discussions on this for AD?

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, jice said:

They didn’t consider military compensation in the context of folks’ overall compensation.

If they had, RAND would realize that (in the case of AvIP) most folks are making an economically irrational decision to show up at all.

Again, every A1 at every level should have a permanent labor economist on staff… but we’d probably pay just enough to find the worst ones. 

This is what I'm getting at. Just landed my first post-AD role. It is NOT airlines and I'm still making just about double what I was as a Major. The crazy high pay accessible to officers in the private sector is incredible and the DoD is shooting itself by not doing studies to understand just how much more opportunity people have when they get out. Yes, serving your country is a moral reason to stay but ensuring generational financial security for your family and off spring is also a moral reason to leave. 

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Is this the 1500 a month maxed out flight pay discussion for Reserve component (is that RC)? Any discussions on this for AD?

I think it’s specifically the idea that if you work even one day of orders, or just come to drill, that you would be entitled to the entire month’s worth of flight pay, per the normal brackets for what that pays. So come to drill, earn $1K in flight pay, not 4/30ths of $1K.

Edited February 8, 2023 by nsplayr

[brabus]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

I think it’s specifically the idea that if you work even one day of orders, or just come to drill, that you would be entitled to the entire month’s worth of flight pay, per the normal brackets for what that pays. So come to drill, earn $1K in flight pay, not 4/30ths of $1K.

Does the NDAA change the concept of prorated incentive pay to one day = full payment?

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Does the NDAA change the concept of prorated incentive pay to one day = full payment?

AFAIK yes, and it was the 2021 NDAA, not even the 2022 one. The DoD has slowrolled a required report the law states was needed before the pay started, and in effect has indefinitely delayed actually implementing the law as written. Members of Congress from both parties are pissed and trying to get it fixed apparently.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/10/26/delay-incentive-pay-boost-guard-and-reserves-draws-rebuke-lawmakers.html

[60 driver]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:37 PM, Scooter14 said:

 

Who says you can’t have both?

Do your 11-12 years AD.

Join ARC unit.

Get hired by airline.

Drill with unit, go on a deployment or two, sit alert. Upgrade. Go to in residence PME. Whatever to mitigate first year pay and get orders. MEST, whatever.

Fly the line for year two at the airline. Continue to chip away at AD time until you’re close to or over the 15 year AD mark.

Seek out a temp AGR or ADOS tour. Flying, non-flying. Doesn’t matter. There’s a lot out there, especially if you’re willing to move. There’s probably a need at your own unit the way things are going now. If you’re willing to work and you have the qualifications they are willing to give you the chance.

Get to 20 active. It’ll probably take you 25 years of total service to make it happen. Go back to year 6-9 pay at your airline with an AD retirement safety net for the next economic downturn.







Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

 

FWIW this is pretty much exactly what I did.  Wish I could say I actually had the forethought to plan it that way.  It you can pull it off it works great. 

[HeyWatchThis]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:52 AM, Danger41 said:

Is this the 1500 a month maxed out flight pay discussion for Reserve component (is that RC)? Any discussions on this for AD?

Here is the verbiage from the recently signed FY23 NDAA:

(c) SPECIAL AVIATION INCENTIVE PAY AND BONUS AUTHORITIES FOR OFFICERS.—Section 334(c)(1) of title 37, United States Code, is amended— (1) in subparagraph (A), by striking ‘‘$1,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$1,500’’; and (2) in subparagraph (B), by striking ‘‘$35,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$75,000’’. (d) SKILL INCENTIVE PAY OR PROFICIENCY BONUS.—Section 353(c)(1)(A) of title 37, United States Code, is amended by striking ‘‘$1,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$1,750’’. 

[uscmas412]

28 minutes ago, HeyWatchThis said:

Here is the verbiage from the recently signed FY23 NDAA:

(c) SPECIAL AVIATION INCENTIVE PAY AND BONUS AUTHORITIES FOR OFFICERS.—Section 334(c)(1) of title 37, United States Code, is amended— (1) in subparagraph (A), by striking ‘‘$1,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$1,500’’; and (2) in subparagraph (B), by striking ‘‘$35,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$75,000’’. (d) SKILL INCENTIVE PAY OR PROFICIENCY BONUS.—Section 353(c)(1)(A) of title 37, United States Code, is amended by striking ‘‘$1,000’’ and inserting ‘‘$1,750’’. 

Wondering how long it'll take the Air Force to approve the maximum of $1,500 for AD.  From a little digging, it looks like it took a while last time an increase was authorized.  2015 NDAA allowed $1k max, AF didn't pay up until Oct 2017.  

 

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1290397/air-force-announces-initiatives-to-lessen-pilot-shortage/

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1356/text

[Polar Bear]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:43 AM, SocialD said:

 

This has been a pretty common misconception by many of my squadron mates.  The only ones who come back on orders, are the guys who are within 5 years of their 20.  The rest have gotten a taste of the QOL and are now DSGs for life.  It's funny is seeing the "I'm never going to the airline" types, especially the ones who gave airline guys shit, who are now DSG for life because of how good the QOL is for them.

 

Unfortunately, I had to go on orders in early December and I forgot how bad being full time sucks.  I've worked more in the last two months than I did in the last 5 months of 2022 at Delta...never mind the massive pay hit.  I guess if all I did was show up, fly and go home, it wouldn't be terrible.  But I don't think people realize how much of life in the military is fighting one self-imposed (by the AF) roadblock after another.  It's completely maddening and what makes me dread getting up and going to work almost every day right now.  It's something you don't grasp until you have a job where all you have to do is fly and you're not constantly fighting just to get basic shit done.  Then the huge added benefit is that you don't take work home with you!  The end of these orders can't get here fast enough!

 

 

 

I'm nothing close to a weapons officer, but "it depends..."  My recommendation to all our young guys is that if you even think you may to the airlines at some point, I'd get hired ASAP because seniority is everything.  If you're within 5 years of a 20 year retirement, depending on how far you'll go for orders, then I'd imagine it wouldn't be all that hard to get to 20 while out on MLOA.  Lots of orders floating around the system...ask Brabus

I’m assuming you’re on a wb living in base?

[brabus]

2 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

I’m assuming you’re on a wb living in base?

I say his statement is applicable to everyone, including the NB commuter (like me, for example). Of course I’d love to have the additional benefits of living in base, but even a NB commuter lives a life far exceeding the mil life in several ways (namely compensation and QOL). If one doesn’t find that true, then they’re either doing it wrong or very junior (probably both). 

[SocialD]

9 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

I’m assuming you’re on a wb living in base?

 

 

Bad assumption.  I'm a 717 Captain, but I do live in base for both jobs and the reserve GS game was righteous last year.  The GS's have dried up significantly (while I've been on orders), but a buddy at my seniority has hasn't turned a wheel since mid December.  I used to be a WB FO before rona displaced me, but I opted to upgrade rather than reinstate back to the 330.  That was a good life too, I just grew tired of the 6 day trips (and the fatigue that went with it) and/or the rat race it took to avoid those long trips (mostly not available these days due to staffing in my old category).  As brabus eluded to...get/stay senior and your life will be infinitely better most anything else out there.

 

I was 13 years from an AGR retirement (after 13 years in) when I got hired at DAL, so that was never in the cards for me.  I'm just not cut out for "punch a clock" style of work of full-time, it's worse than groundhog day to me...especially since most of my days are spent behind a computer and/or fighting battles that shouldn't have to be fought.  On the upside, I just got my retirement order yesterday...the end is near! 

Edited February 17, 2023 by SocialD

[SocialD]

Let me give you an example of the bullshit dealt with just this week.  For context, the member is activated stateside, but away from home.  This is real life in the military... 

 

Finance: Sir, one of your members has an unauthorized purchase on his GTC.

Me: What did he buy?  *thinking this dude went to a strip joint*

Finance: He bought a fishing license with his GTC.

Me:  *OK this dude clearly isn't as cool as I thought, but fishing is fun too...just not as fun as strippers*   

Me:  *laughs then thinks....oh shit, this guy is serious.*

Me:  Does he have per diem to cover it?

Finance:  Yes.

Me: Ok, then what's the problem?

Finance:  It's not an authorized purchase location?

Me:  Can I authorize it as his CC?

Finance:  Ummm....

Me:  I mean, the dude could have done a cash advance for the same amount, right?

Finance: Yes

Me:  Then he could have walked from that ATM with said cash and bought said item, right?

Finance:  Yes

Me: ...and that's authorized?

Finance:  Yes

Me:  ...............silence..........

Finance:  ............silence............

Me:  the why the fuck are we having this conversation?

Finance:  The purchase location on his GTC isn't authorized.

Me: But an ATM at the same location would have been fine?

Finance:  Yes sir.

Me:  *stares through phone muthafuckingly*

Me:  How much are we talking here.

Finance:  $25 dollars.

Me:  $%$%#&#*#((#

Finance:  Sir?

Me:  OK, what do you need?

Finance:  I need this form filled out, which requires an investigation.

Me:  WTF?  Over $25, that is more than covered by his per diem?

Finance:  Yes sir...we have to have it for the auditors.

Me:  Can I just send you a memo that says it's good to go?

Finance:  No sir, the auditor requires this form.

Me:  Sure, I'll just clear my schedule of that unimportant shit like flying and launch an investigation into this great travesty that will certainly bankrupt the AF! 

Finance:  Is that some kind of joke, we weren't issued a sense of humor at finance school (ok, that part might be made up...10% rule applies).

 

So I spent a morning "investigating" a $25 purchase, where my comments were a veiled, I can't believe you made me do this and this is basically fraud waste and abuse of my time.  

 

Meanwhile, at DAL...  Stuck out in a wx event where I can't get ahold of anyone from the company, and without any approvals/questions/forms filled out (gasp).  I slap my credit card down for 2 cabs and 5 hotel rooms for the crew at the nicest hotel I can find.  On the way to the airport the next day, I file the receipts with a note saying that we got stuck and I procured transportation/lodging for my crew.  I was never questioned and paid out within a few days.  Crazy talk, I know!  

[nunya]

17 minutes ago, SocialD said:

...lots of frustrating shit...

https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/retirement/

You know you want to. It'll feel so good! All your friends are doing it.

Edited February 17, 2023 by nunya

[SocialD]

6 minutes ago, nunya said:

https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/retirement/

You know you want to. It'll feel so good! All your friends are doing it.

 

 

Already done!  Got my retirement order yesterday.  I just have another 1.5 months left on this activation, then I'm a ghost until my fini this summer.  I'm actually quite shocked at how easy/fast the process was to apply for retirement and get my order.  All told, I think I spent 10 minutes to fill out the request, then the order showed up a week later.  If only the VA process was as easy...

Edited February 17, 2023 by SocialD

[nunya]

Oh yeah, I just read that in an earlier post. Congrats! 

Edited February 17, 2023 by nunya

[herkbum]

 
 
Bad assumption.  I'm a 717 Captain, but I do live in base for both jobs and the reserve GS game was righteous last year.  The GS's have dried up significantly (while I've been on orders), but a buddy at my seniority has hasn't turned a wheel since mid December.  I used to be a WB FO before rona displaced me, but I opted to upgrade rather than reinstate back to the 330.  That was a good life too, I just grew tired of the 6 day trips (and the fatigue that went with it) and/or the rat race it took to avoid those long trips (mostly not available these days due to staffing in my old category).  As brabus eluded to...get/stay senior and your life will be infinitely better most anything else out there.
 
I was 13 years from an AGR retirement (after 13 years in) when I got hired at DAL, so that was never in the cards for me.  I'm just not cut out for "punch a clock" style of work of full-time, it's worse than groundhog day to me...especially since most of my days are spent behind a computer and/or fighting battles that shouldn't have to be fought.  On the upside, I just got my retirement order yesterday...the end is near! 

Ah sweet retirement. Congrats!



Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Scooter14]

Ah sweet retirement. Congrats!



Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

You’re gonna like it…I promise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk