Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[Majestik Møøse]

The ability to make decisions under pressure is vitally important for a leader. Aviation highly refines that skill. "Management" doesn't, necessarily.

Certain career fields must have home grown leaders. Firemen, cops, soldiers, pilots, doctors, etc look around a room and see themselves as the top dogs. They will never really respect a leader from another career field, or even one from their own group that is subpar. This is just the way things work. 

[BuddhaSixFour]

What would you say the highly transferable skill set is?

Corporate governance... HR, supply chain management, finance, securities law, recruiting, project management... we're talking about some highly talented people that do more than yell, "Go team!" all day.

You think the CEO deals with payroll and recruiting of unskilled labor?

Yes, I do. I think making payroll and recruiting labor are very much on the mind of many, many CEOs.

Are you implying that one cannot be a good leader without being a good pilot? That leaves quite a few career fields out of luck

Presumably we're talking about leading flying organizations, so yes. Stay on topic.

Wing commanders aren't really the ones tagged to be in the lead aircraft of a 50-ship bomber formation. That's the sq/cc job, right?

No, it isn't. Most SQ/CC's couldn't do that reasonably. That's the problem I'm trying to point out. I think that a SQ/CC should be capable of that, and a Group/CC or Wing/CC should be capable of at least flying in that bomber formation.

I'll bite. How does a combat sortie in a fighting falcon impart organizational leadership skills?

I have seen very little connection between leadership and flying. Admiration, respect, sure. But running an organization of hundreds is not in the same realm... At least that's what I think

When we're talking about a flying unit, they're not distinct, either. Yes, there are plenty of skills required to run a large organization that are distinct from flying, but I'm happy to expect both out of real leaders. Excellence in all we do, right? When all you've got to choose from is a crappy pilot whose a good organizational manager, and a great pilot who can't keep a project on track, by all means, choose the organizational manager to command.  Just know that you're picking between the lesser of evils, not striving to build a robust fighting force. The goal should always be to find someone talented enough to do both. That's a leader.

[brabus]

 

I'll bite. How does a combat sortie in a fighting falcon impart organizational leadership skills?

So you think the guy who is the mission commander for a 100 aircraft, led the planning and/or the actual mission execution isn't utilizing multiple types of leadership skills?  This is MDS agnostic, but being a mission commander (100 was a large example, but the point still stands for the guy running 20-30 assets) in training and combat is a huge leadership role and by far shadows a lot of other "leadership" roles out there.  Budha made great points above.

Edited September 1, 2015 by brabus

[di1630]

You don't have to be a superb pilot to be a great leader. How many people bitch on here about leadership because they aren't great pilots? I haven't seen it yet. You just need to be competent in the jet.

One of my observances in *some* fighter communities is that you pretty much have to be a WIC grad to be on the cc track these days...and you get put on the WIC track as a wingman or young flight lead (not always but a late trend I've seen) = we are choosing our future leaders when they are young captains with 300 hours and then grooming them big blue style with school and other BS.

Most of the great leaders I wanted to follow were awesome pilots. They were looked down upon by the "official" sq leadership but they were truly informal leaders.

Most of them are out now, never made CC. Rarely were they WIC grads (some were), school selects or any other USAF metric measured superstar. Just proficient guys in the jet who hated BS, didn't play the USAF game and therefore didn't get ahead.

(I do not want this to sound like WIC bashing, lots of great dudes sorely needed are WIC grads. I'm knocking the current trend I see with WIC being a new container to fill in the way to CC)

[di1630]

Back on topic. Updated take rates 31 Aug

51.5% overall

Bomber -48.6

C2isr - 53.8

Fighter - 45

-- a-10: 60

-- f15c: 23.5

--15e: 40

--16: 42

--22: 44

--35: 50

--test 78

Mob- 52.5

Rescue - 77.1

Sof -53

Unmanned - 53.7

[TnkrToad]

Back on topic. Updated take rates 31 Aug

51.5% overall

 

While this FY's overall take rate remains low, what seems even more significant is the low early take rate thus far of just 22.5%.

- Last year, 283 pilots out of 743 eligible signed up early for the bonus, for a total early take rate of 38.1% of eligibles. Only 100 more FY15 eligibles have signed up this FY, so almost three quarters of this FY's bonus takers were folks who signed up for the bonus last year

- Thus far this FY, only 168 pilots out of 746 FY16 initial eligibles (22.5%) have signed up for the bonus. If next year follows this year's trend, where the majority of takers sign up early, we could be looking at an overall take rate of 30-40% next year. Welcome back to the late '90s

Bottom line, unless a whole heckuva a lot of folks have been waiting 'til the last month to sign up, next year is shaping up to be pretty ugly for bonus take rates. I hope I'm wrong.

TT 

[TankerDriver]

With 1st year pay at most of the legacy airlines up around $70-80 an hour with a bump up to $110+ your second year to just fly airplanes 75 hours a month, who would risk record acceleration up the seniority list for $25k a year to do year long staff tours in the desert?

There's just something to be said about getting paid good money to just fly airplanes and be off 16 days a month.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Jughead]

51.5% overall

[...]

Unmanned - 53.7

Wow...  maybe RPAs don't suck as much as I've heard??  The unmanned percentage is actually bringing the average UP....??? 

[guineapigfury]

I'd like to see the breakout by airframe.  I'd bet you have RQ-4 take rates pulling up the average.  I don't know any of my peers in MQ-9s who plan on taking the devil's money.  I'm also curious how they factor in separations to these numbers.  If dudes are pulling chocks the day their UPT expires, do they end up in that denominator?  Are the only counting 11Us as RPA guys?   As someone stuck in this RPA bullshit, i'm inclined to regard any "good news" about the RPA community as either propaganda or outright lies.

[R-Dub]

Do you guys get the updated numbers off of mypers?

[Champ Kind]

I hope I'm wrong.

Why?

[di1630]

Do you guys get the updated numbers off of mypers?

AFPC static reports

[di1630]

Lots of stats available at https://access.afpc.af.mil follow links to static reports...scroll all the way down for ARP

[TnkrToad]

Why?

Low take rates would be bad news for everyone:

- Let's say we go back to the late 90s/very early 2000s. Take rates went as low as 28% and as high as 42% (averaged 33%) between FY97 and FY01

-- Today's senior leaders were those who took the bonus and/or stayed in past 20yr retirement eligibility during that time of increased airline hiring  

-- It took 9/11 and the '07-'08 financial crisis to get the take rates back to the mid-60s, where it remained from FY03 to FY13

- If you haven't liked the Air Force's leadership decisions over the past decade, when we've had pretty healthy retention of quality individuals to fill command and staff billets, then I doubt you'll like when we pick our commanders and their staffs based solely on "last man standing"

      Perhaps in the long run, the shock of bleeding talent will force Big Blue to adjust it policies in such a way that adequate numbers of quality individuals will want to stay in and keep the service moving forward. Tim Kane's Bleeding Talent (as just one example) was published in 2012, which means he identified and started writing about the problem well before that, and JQP's blog has been going for a little while now . . . but I've seen little movement thus far toward addressing fundamental problems that drive folks out of the service. As I've said in a different thread on this forum, senior Air Force (and more broadly senior military) leaders aren't the only issue; they can only do so much to unscrew what our senior civilian leaders have done to discourage mil service. 

      Bottom line: low retention rates now + slow/ignorant AF bureaucracy + even more ignorant civilian leadership - another major crisis (9/11 style attack or financial downturn) = significant Air Force leadership & culture problems for the foreseeable future

On a more optimistic note, if take rates next year are high (or at least indicate a significant improvement), that would be a sign the Air Force is doing something right, and is taking meaningful steps to address fundamental concerns within the force.

TT

[Champ Kind]

 Bottom line: low retention rates now + slow/ignorant AF bureaucracy + even more ignorant civilian leadership - another major crisis (9/11 style attack or financial downturn) = significant Air Force leadership & culture problems for the foreseeable future

All the more reason to leave, right?  I think people that take exception to the AF's "significant leadership & culture problems" should be more concerned about an active duty exit strategy than they are about the bonus take-rate and the potential fallout from that.

[guineapigfury]

All the more reason to leave, right?  I think people that take exception to the AF's "significant leadership & culture problems" should be more concerned about an active duty exit strategy than they are about the bonus take-rate and the potential fallout from that.

I'm 99.69% sure I'm separating ASAP, but I want the USAF to get better for the sake of my friends who are dumb/motivated/patriotic/stubborn enough to stay.  I just don't think it will.

[Champ Kind]

I'm 99.69% sure I'm separating ASAP, but I want the USAF to get better for the sake of my friends who are dumb/motivated/patriotic/stubborn enough to stay.  I just don't think it will.

That's on them.

[TnkrToad]

All the more reason to leave, right?  I think people that take exception to the AF's "significant leadership & culture problems" should be more concerned about an active duty exit strategy than they are about the bonus take-rate and the potential fallout from that.

I think you and I are in violent agreement, but we have different audiences in mind.

- For those individuals on this forum who are (or will soon be) making the decision whether not to punch, of course they can read from this discussion that the near-term outlook is not great in the Air Force and make plans accordingly. It's a great time to forego the bonus in favor of greener pastures in the civil sector. If you want to get out, go for it. More power to ya'

- For those on this forum who, for whatever reason (they're senior leaders, Lts a decade away from bonus eligibility, or just morbidly curious) care about the long-term future of the Air Force, I like to think I'm providing a degree of value-added insight. I haven't seen anyone else discussing what seems to me to be a very low early bonus take rate on this forum, even though I think it's significant. I'd love to hear how the Air Force is doing with keeping people past 20--a metric which I think bears directly on the discussion of ACP bonuses--but either nobody on this forum knows, or if they do they're not talking

There have been folks on this forum who were/are/claim to be associated with rated force management and/or senior AF leaders. As such individuals contemplate this year's take rate, I hope they'll consider the low early bonus take rate (and I suspect low retention of aviators past 20 yrs) as a "canary in the coal mine" and use this data (along with other relevant data points) to adjust future years' rated management programs to make them effective. If our senior leaders fail to do what they can, within the scope of their respective authority, responsibility and human endurance, to address problems within the rated force  . . . then go back to bullet point one--it's a great time to get out. I, for one, hope for the good of the Air Force and our nation that--between better bonus options, more sane personnel policies, reversing social engineering efforts, etc.--more quality folks will decide to remain on AD. 

TT

[DirkDiggler]

 I care.  A lot.  My commitment takes me to almost 16 years and as much as the AF sucks sometimes, I still love what I do and plan to stay in.  The low bonus take rate is (or should be) seriously concerning to the guys that decide to for whatever reason to stay in.  I'm in a fairly small community and in the last 18 months we've had a serious attrition rate of senior instructor O-3/4/5 types getting out from VSP/retirement/TERA/commitment up and sick of the AF reasons.  My airframe is hurting, badly, on instructors right now.  I can't go out and create a high time O-3/4 combat experienced instructor pilot out of thin air, that shit takes time as you well know.  I've been in a sq that lost an airplane during a mishap; lack of proficiency and low experience were big factors in the crash.  I have no desire to ever repeat that; the AF needs quality guys to stay in and carry the torch.  If the low bonus take rates and the airline hiring thread are any indicators, the Air Force's rated officer problem has just begun and things are gonna get worse before they get better.  That means it's a problem for guys like me who stay in and thus why I care.  The AF needs to recognize that it has some serious internal problems and get on positive vector (I believe Gen Welsh is sincerely trying) quick or we're in for some really hard times in the not too distant future.

[Champ Kind]

 get on positive vector (I believe Gen Welsh is sincerely trying) quick

I just don't buy it.  I was a Welsh fan boy when it was first announced he was going to become CSAF.  Some of that may have been that he couldn't have been any worse than Schwartz.  He's had three years.  We are beyond "trying".  I do think he was our best chance to make things better, but it has become clear that the toxicity and disfunction in this institution is so deeply-rooted that one person, charismatic, combat-proven, and charismatic as he may be, cannot overcome the bureaucracy.  

That has been the biggest eye opener for me recently:  not that things are so jacked up at the squadron/group/wing, but that the manning and intellectual paralysis spreads all the way through the NAFs, MAJCOM, HAF, and beyond.  I truly don't know how things can get better.

[Homestar]

Two words: lifetime annuity.

That is why people sign the bonus. I'm paid six figures to fly (and do lots of other stupid stuff--see: What's wrong with the AF thread), I've already done a 365, and I get free health care.

By time I can get out all my friends who were hired by airlines in the past 24 months will be excellent internal recs for me (I hope).

I'm a path-of-least-resistance kind of guy.

[17D_guy]

So.. are you offered the ACP every year if you don't take it the first year available?  It's not a single offer to your year group?

 

Thanks.

[ThreeHoler]

So.. are you offered the ACP every year if you don't take it the first year available?  It's not a single offer to your year group?

 

Thanks.

For my year group the first year eligible was offered at $25k/5 years and if you didn't take it that year you could later sign up for $15/3 years. I know people who didn't take the initial offer and took the $45k after getting a school slot. I'll happily keep my $125k.

All number before taxes.

[Smokin]

There's also currently the early eligible and then initial eligible.  Early basically means you sign the bonus before your ADSC is up and then you start getting paid once your ADSC expires.  Best deal for you if you know 100% that you're in for 20.  The initial eligible is the FY that your ADSC expires, which means you could be a free agent (thus not getting any extra money) between the day your ADSC expires until the bonus is released and they process your paperwork.

[17D_guy]

That's so.. strange.  Does the early eligible get more money?  You'd think they'd throw more at the on the fence/more experienced (even if only a year) guys who didn't take the other ones.  

 

I guess more people could wait it out then for more cash.. but you'd get an easy crop for 365's and the like.  Unless I'm thinking stupid, which is always possible.

 

Thanks for the info!