Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[BADFNZ]

16 hours ago, Azimuth said:

They also deploy to Guam, not the desert (exception to policy is now) and do six month rotations there like your community.  

And?  It's still a BUFF and I'm sure there are exactly zero Bone pilots that would like to fly one.

[pawnman]

17 hours ago, Azimuth said:

They also deploy to Guam, not the desert (exception to policy is now) and do six month rotations there like your community.  

If I'm going to deploy for six months away from my family, I'd prefer to deploy somewhere I can do useful work and collect tax free.

[Gazmo]

I'm hearing that there is serious talk of bringing back the ART bonus this year as well, which could further incentivize people to get out. Additionally, around the squadron there are serious fears about stop-loss which are driving people to get out ASAP when they might have stuck around a year or two more as they explored outside options.

ART's already get a "bonus". It's in the form of a 30% locality pay across the board for all pilots. Kind of a flawed bonus system because the individuals who live in the high cost of living areas like NYC and DC where locality is near 30% anyway get the bone. It's like AGR's getting a bonus in the form of BAH. I'd love to know who actually thought that was a great idea. Probably a bunch of dudes from Alabama and Kansas where locality pay is 14%.

I will give my opinion on what I "would" do if I were on AD ready to get out. I PC'd to the ANG almost 10 years ago and I've done everything from be a Guard bum to a temp AGR, temp ART and I'm now a full-time ART.

If you have no aspirations to be a commercial airline pilot, but want to stay in the military full-time without "some" of the AD stupidity, AGR is the way to go (and you can still take the same bonus... in the ANG). I will warn that although the ANG is still much more enjoyable that AD ever was, it's not the flying club it used to be. We're busy and as one of the few full-timers, there is definitely never a shortage of BS to deal with and fires to put out. Remember, less than 30% of the unit is full-time and it's not like you can just make someone come in and help out. You have to ask them and ask them nicely because at the end of the day, unless they're being mobilized, they can say no. I would say more than 50% of my duty is taking care of administrative BS supporting traditional guardsmen because they're not there enough to take care of it themselves. The part-timer card is pulled quite a bit when it comes to some of the basic responsibilities that most of us took upon ourselves on AD.

The ART program isn't worth it to me for a long-term career anymore. It's great if you're a brand new 1Lt out of UPT making GS-13 pay to fly 2-3 times a week and be the Awards/Decorations/Snacko, but once you get up into the O-3/4 range, you realize you're working harder for less. The program isn't what it used to be. The retirement over the years has become less and less attractive. Prior to FERS, ART's got 50-75% retirement pay. That was $60-80k a year. Now, it's 1% for every year of service and the FERS annuity payments are now 4.4% of your salary (used to be .8%). So, $4,000+ of your annaul salary goes into your retirement ON TOP of contributing to your TSP to get the 401k matching. Lot's of your own money is going toward your retirement.

Aside from that, the powers that be who've had their heads in the sand when it comes to retaining ART's are a day late and $1 (or $25,000) short to keep the waves of ART's from walking out the front door. 15 years ago, there were guys willing to give their left cahone to land an ART job. These days, an FO on 2nd year pay at United makes about as much as a GS-13 step 5 and works about 1/3 as many hours per year.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that this is a bigger monster than the ARC can handle since they've tide their hands trying to man military organizations with civilians confined to a lack-luster benefits/retirement program. They should make all full-time ARC positions AGR, but I'm not sure they can fund that.

If I were on AD not taking the bonus and looking at getting picked up by an airline, I'd be rushing ARC units with ART/AGR vacancies. There's high probability you could pick up a temp-ART job while you wait for your call. As soon as you get your call, you're a free agent, but still have a traditional ARC position to stay in. If you get out of AD with 12 yrs in (4,400 points) and you can make it to 20 years/5500 points in an ARC unit, you're looking at $3,000+ per month as a Lt Col when you turn 60.

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[SurelySerious]

 

What's so bad about it?

Constant exercises, control exerted from on-high at a level far exceeding anything in ACC.

For everything.

[Harvey]

13 hours ago, Gazmo said:

 .....

If I were on AD not taking the bonus and looking at getting picked up by an airline, I'd be rushing ARC units with ART/AGR vacancies. There's high probability you could pick up a temp-ART job while you wait for your call. As soon as you get your call, you're a free agent, but still have a traditional ARC position to stay in. If you get out of AD with 12 yrs in (4,400 points) and you can make it to 20 years/5500 points in an ARC unit, you're looking at $3,000+ per month as a Lt Col when you turn 60.

Gazmo,

      Thanks for the summary. The paragraph above is the path I'm looking at. Problem is, I don't want to be a douche and walk away from an ART job if I get a call from a major 2 months after seperation. Also I understand that there is the possibility that there would not be a TR position to transition into if the TRs are fully manned in that unit. 

        It seems like most units want a "handshake" year commitment from a new ART, which sounds like a reasonable request to me. Anyone hearing anything different? Sorry to continue the thread derail

[Gazmo]

ART jobs are directly tied to a military position within the unit. There should be no reason you couldn't terminate your ART position and stay a traditional guardsmen/reservist. There are no handshakes in my unit. People are walking out the door left and right; full-timers and part-timers. Last year we lost 1 O-4 and 4 O-5's to retirement. This year we're losing 6. Next year, probably 2 or 3 more. We don't have enough O-4's to promote and replace them. Last year we lost 2 ART's to the airlines. This year we've already lost 1. Just about every ART in the unit has apps in with the airlines. I'm sure there are other units out there in the same boat and they won't be in the position to think you're douche because you decided you didn't want to be an ART anymore.

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[Smokin]

Some units I interviewed with said that the gentlemen's agreement is two years as an ART before going part-time.  If you went part time before that two years, they'd try to put you in a TR/DSG position, but no guarantee.  The airline hiring is going to eventually make the guard/reserve reevaluate the ART position entirely.

[Polar Bear]

With the shortage of ART's is that helping the guys bumming get more days? It doesn't seem like the bums are filling the full time jobs.

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[Gazmo]

With the shortage of ART's is that helping the guys bumming get more days? It doesn't seem like the bums are filling the full time jobs.

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I can tell you the times of the "Guard Bum" is gone. 9/11 really created what we know as bumming because the airlines weren't hiring. Most of the bums have gotten airline jobs and most don't have interest in coming in. Why? Increased CENTCOM and PACOM rotations. When people are deploying twice a year and have a civilian job, they don't want to spend their free time at the unit. With a lot of our more experience IP-Major/Lt Col types bailing out of ART positions, we are hiring 1Lt's right out of UPT into full-time jobs. Great for them. Not so great for the unit.

The ART program will die an ugly death. It takes getting hired at a Step 7 with a 25% retention bonus to match what an O-4/12+ makes on ACIP. Or you can go get hired with UAL or DAL and make more on 2nd year FO pay while sitting on reserve.

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[Gazmo]

Some units I interviewed with said that the gentlemen's agreement is two years as an ART before going part-time.  If you went part time before that two years, they'd try to put you in a TR/DSG position, but no guarantee.  The airline hiring is going to eventually make the guard/reserve reevaluate the ART position entirely.

I guess there could be situations where units are undermanned with full-timers, but over-manned with part-timers and some people are using the full-time vacancies to get in the door. However, I don't think gentlemen's agreements are the answer. I say if units want to hire and retain ART's, they need to, show people the money and make them sign retention contracts! Not use gentlemen's agreements. There are OPM legal ways to offer recruiting/retention incentives to new/existing ART's and gentlemen's agreements don't cut it. In the case of my unit and many others I know in the tanker community, we are hurting in part-time and full-time manning, so we really wouldn't have a leg to stand on doing gentlmen's agreements.

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[Polar Bear]

With the shortage of ART's is that helping the guys bumming get more days? It doesn't seem like the bums are filling the full time jobs. Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

I can tell you the times of the "Guard Bum" is gone. 9/11 really created what we know as bumming because the airlines weren't hiring. Most of the bums have gotten airline jobs and most don't have interest in coming in. Why? Increased CENTCOM and PACOM rotations. When people are deploying twice a year and have a civilian job, they don't want to spend their free time at the unit. With a lot of our more experience IP-Major/Lt Col types bailing out of ART positions, we are hiring 1Lt's right out of UPT into full-time jobs. Great for them. Not so great for the unit.

The ART program will die an ugly death. It takes getting hired at a Step 7 with a 25% retention bonus to match what an O-4/12+ makes on ACIP. Or you can go get hired with UAL or DAL and make more on 2nd year FO pay while sitting on reserve.

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The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why would someone out of Upt go to a regional when they can make more bumming or being an Art? I didn't realize guys were delpoying outside of hercs and tankers. For those who want to bum is there more opportunity for man days? I'm surprised that so many people want to go the airline route.

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[Gazmo]

One could argue that you could possibly build PIC time and get hired by a major airline quicker by going to a regional right now that getting a full-time ART job. As a full timer, I only fly about 250 hours per year. Maybe 400 if I deploy. You could get 800-1000 hour Part 121 time at a regional. Yeah, you're making less than half the cash, but for some, it's not about the money.

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[Bergman]

11 hours ago, Gazmo said:

I can tell you the times of the "Guard Bum" is gone. 9/11 really created what we know as bumming because the airlines weren't hiring. Most of the bums have gotten airline jobs and most don't have interest in coming in. [\quotDAL and make more on 2nd year FO pay while sitting on reserve.

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I would disagree that the days of the guard bum are gone.  With so many people going to the airlines, the bums who are left are getting more days than they can count.  I've seen Captains turn down temp tech saying, "if you want me, I will work in this office for this specific person and you will give me 120 days AGR orders".  Management says, "Okay" because they are so understaffed.  The ARTs are all having heart attacks because they have to work for the first time in 10 years with so few guard bums around to do the shit jobs that havare typically been passed down.

 

As for sitting reserve with an airline...it depends on airframe, but most new hires right now won't sit reserve for more than 2-3 months.

 

[SnapLock]

2 hours ago, Bergman said:

I would disagree that the days of the guard bum are gone.  With so many people going to the airlines, the bums who are left are getting more days than they can count.  I've seen Captains turn down temp tech saying, "if you want me, I will work in this office for this specific person and you will give me 120 days AGR orders".  Management says, "Okay" because they are so understaffed.  The ARTs are all having heart attacks because they have to work for the first time in 10 years with so few guard bums around to do the shit jobs that havare typically been passed down.

 

As for sitting reserve with an airline...it depends on airframe, but most new hires right now won't sit reserve for more than 2-3 months.

 

Sooooo, where are these guard/reserve units that are sooooo undermanned? Every one that I talk to tells me they have 20-40 people applying for each open position.  I've gone out of my way, I mean really out of my way, to find my way to a couple units' doorsteps.  Initial impressions have been good and they take all my info and tell me they would love to have me, but they aren't hiring at the moment.  Then I call a few months later and they tell me they don't have my info, don't remember me, and they just hired 3 new guys.  Maybe this belongs in the guard/reserve section but I'm not seeing all of these "opportunities" in the guard or reserve like everyone is talking about.  Sure, maybe I'm rushing the most desirable units, but still.... What gives?  I'm a pointy nose type, but have talked to both omnivores and carnivores. 

[Herkasaurus]

27 minutes ago, SnapLock said:

Sooooo, where are these guard/reserve units that are sooooo undermanned? Every one that I talk to tells me they have 20-40 people applying for each open position.  I've gone out of my way, I mean really out of my way, to find my way to a couple units' doorsteps.  Initial impressions have been good and they take all my info and tell me they would love to have me, but they aren't hiring at the moment.  Then I call a few months later and they tell me they don't have my info, don't remember me, and they just hired 3 new guys.  Maybe this belongs in the guard/reserve section but I'm not seeing all of these "opportunities" in the guard or reserve like everyone is talking about.  Sure, maybe I'm rushing the most desirable units, but still.... What gives?  I'm a pointy nose type, but have talked to both omnivores and carnivores. 

If they just hired 3 new guys I'd say they are hiring. Have you met them face to face or just phone/email?

[Duck]

They are evaluating if they want to hang out with you until you hit 20 or beyond. It's hard to do that over the phone or with one face to face. If you really want to get hired you have to hustle. I know my unit would rather not hire anyone and be undermanned than hire a question mark or someone that they may be stuck with. We got burned with some dudes before and we're stuck until they hit O-5 + 2 years.

[Duck]

Also not being qual'd in the airframe brings the challenge of TX courses which isn't a huge deal if you have been hanging out during drill weekends and they want to take a chance on you.

Lastly, I would say the best advice I can give is to be humble. I have a couple good stories of guys coming in who flew the F whatever or was an Evaluator in such and such or was a patch wearer or had umpty billion hours get told thanks but no thanks. Which is sad but always funny to watch people who truly have no sense of self-awareness or people skills completely embarrass themselves and shoot themselves in the foot.

[Karl Hungus]

5 hours ago, caseylf said:

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why would someone out of Upt go to a regional when they can make more bumming or being an Art? I didn't realize guys were delpoying outside of hercs and tankers. For those who want to bum is there more opportunity for man days? I'm surprised that so many people want to go the airline route.

Get a new username Scoobs?

[SnapLock]

1 hour ago, Duck said:

Also not being qual'd in the airframe brings the challenge of TX courses which isn't a huge deal if you have been hanging out during drill weekends and they want to take a chance on you.

Lastly, I would say the best advice I can give is to be humble. I have a couple good stories of guys coming in who flew the F whatever or was an Evaluator in such and such or was a patch wearer or had umpty billion hours get told thanks but no thanks. Which is sad but always funny to watch people who truly have no sense of self-awareness or people skills completely embarrass themselves and shoot themselves in the foot.

Good advice.  Like I said before I've actually gone to several units and spent some time with them.  Everything was positive and I did my best to be humble and not have an attitude.  What I am seeing though is that it seems like a lot of the slots are either unofficially already filled before the process is over or they are just hiring their bros or people that they already knew from before.  I honestly can't blame anyone for doing that.  What I am saying is that it doesn't look like there are so many guard/reserve jobs out there that units can't get them all filled like some people have been saying.

[Gazmo]

I can't speak for the pointy-nose units, but most of the tanker units are undermanned. Lot's of guys who bailed off AD during the last mass AF pilot exodus (1999-2000) who came to the ANG are now 20-25+ years, comfortable at their airlines and don't want to be slammed with desert rotations anymore. We have literally hired people after phone interviews.

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[Champ Kind]

I can't speak for the pointy-nose units, but most of the tanker units are undermanned. Lot's of guys who bailed off AD during the last mass AF pilot exodus (1999-2000) who came to the ANG are now 20-25+ years, comfortable at their airlines and don't want to be slammed with desert rotations anymore. We have literally hired people after phone interviews.

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Are any of those cross-MDS?

[Gazmo]

I can't speak for the pointy-nose units, but most of the tanker units are undermanned. Lot's of guys who bailed off AD during the last mass AF pilot exodus (1999-2000) who came to the ANG are now 20-25+ years, comfortable at their airlines and don't want to be slammed with desert rotations anymore. We have literally hired people after phone interviews.Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Are any of those cross-MDS?

Yep. We have hired quite a few out of everything from bombers to recce.

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[Duck]

Maybe try some less desirable locations to get your foot in the door? Also try to get someone to more or less sponsor you who is already in the unit.

[herkbum]

Also not being qual'd in the airframe brings the challenge of TX courses which isn't a huge deal if you have been hanging out during drill weekends and they want to take a chance on you.

Lastly, I would say the best advice I can give is to be humble. I have a couple good stories of guys coming in who flew the F whatever or was an Evaluator in such and such or was a patch wearer or had umpty billion hours get told thanks but no thanks. Which is sad but always funny to watch people who truly have no sense of self-awareness or people skills completely embarrass themselves and shoot themselves in the foot.

Good advice.  Like I said before I've actually gone to several units and spent some time with them.  Everything was positive and I did my best to be humble and not have an attitude.  What I am seeing though is that it seems like a lot of the slots are either unofficially already filled before the process is over or they are just hiring their bros or people that they already knew from before.  I honestly can't blame anyone for doing that.  What I am saying is that it doesn't look like there are so many guard/reserve jobs out there that units can't get them all filled like some people have been saying.

We want to see the desire to be in the unit. As my spiel goes to those that visit-we look at it as if you are joining our family. 1 visit isn't going to cut it. We are also going check you thru the bro network. Think of it as rushing a frat. If we constantly see your face, then we know you really want to be part of our unit, not just shot gunning out apps and phone calls to see if anyone bites.

One of our last hires said he was stumped at the interview when we asked him to tell us something about him we didn't know. He stumbled because he had been at the squadron so much he thought he had told us everything. That's the level of determination we are looking for. We want you to be around for 10-15 or so yrs, so we are going to make sure you fit in. And you should be sure we are going to fit in for you as well. Never forget it's a 2 way relationship.

[SnapLock]

1 hour ago, herkbum said:

We want to see the desire to be in the unit. As my spiel goes to those that visit-we look at it as if you are joining our family. 1 visit isn't going to cut it. We are also going check you thru the bro network. Think of it as rushing a frat. If we constantly see your face, then we know you really want to be part of our unit, not just shot gunning out apps and phone calls to see if anyone bites.

One of our last hires said he was stumped at the interview when we asked him to tell us something about him we didn't know. He stumbled because he had been at the squadron so much he thought he had told us everything. That's the level of determination we are looking for. We want you to be around for 10-15 or so yrs, so we are going to make sure you fit in. And you should be sure we are going to fit in for you as well. Never forget it's a 2 way relationship.

I agree with everything you are saying.  What about the people who are on the other side of the world or can't make it to the unit more than once or not at all due to those circumstances?  What if said person has a great resume and recommendations, and your unit is in their home town? Are people like that not going to get hired?