Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[neontico]

Looks like the $60k found its way back into the text.  Now off to potus for sig:

 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s2943/text/eah

[Nobody]

$60k for each 12 month service of obligated service is surely the nuclear option.  It's unfathomable they will offer $60k annual bonuses to pilots without extreme strings attached after they've exhausted all other options and are literally considering that "stop-loss" that GC refers to.

[ThreeHoler]

$60k for each 12 month service of obligated service is surely the nuclear option.  It's unfathomable they will offer $60k annual bonuses to pilots without extreme strings attached after they've exhausted all other options and are literally considering that "stop-loss" that GC refers to.

Unfathomable to you, maybe. Some of us have heard it directly from A3 that they know $60K/yr is the current magic number for the up to 20YAS option.

[Gazmo]

Delaying your departure to the airlines for $60k per year now could cost you $100k+ per year (and a better lifestyle) in the last 5-10 years of your airline career.

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[ThreeHoler]

That $60K/year ($45K/yr after the 25% tax hit) could be worth between $1.9M and $8.5M (6% and 12% annual return) at age 65. This is, of course, very quick and dirty napkin math...but TVM.

[SnapLock]

21 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

Delaying your departure to the airlines for $60k per year now could cost you $100k+ per year (and a better lifestyle) in the last 5-10 years of your airline career.

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I am by no means a blue kool aid drinker but there are two sides to this coin. I am planning on getting out soon and going to the airlines. However, I heard recently that roughly 1/3 of all males won't make it to 65, and only around 25% of all airline pilots will make it to 65 without losing their medical for a period of time. Let that sink in. Also, we know that the airline industry is volatile. Hopefully, those of us who are getting hired now will be bullet proof from furloughs etc, but you never know. Also, look at how airline management teams are fighting tooth and nail to avoid better contracts for pilots. Doesn't seem like a healthy relationship to me. Health insurance costs are also significantly higher on the outside. If you have something go down you could take a pretty big hit.

Just some food for thought.

Everyone talks about the money you could lose at the end of your career if you don't go to the airlines now. Well, how do you know you'll live that long? Will you be able to hold your medical into those years?  

To me this isn't a money decision. It is a quality of life decision. 

[Jaded]

That's not really how you should calculate it - the difference between airline pay and the 60k bonus is what's important. If, for instance, the difference was 60k you'd actually be *losing* between $1.9M and $8.5M using those same assumptions.

[Gazmo]

I am by no means a blue kool aid drinker but there are two sides to this coin. I am planning on getting out soon and going to the airlines. However, I heard recently that roughly 1/3 of all males won't make it to 65, and only around 25% of all airline pilots will make it to 65 without losing their medical for a period of time. Let that sink in. Also, we know that the airline industry is volatile. Hopefully, those of us who are getting hired now will be bullet proof from furloughs etc, but you never know. Also, look at how airline management teams are fighting tooth and nail to avoid better contracts for pilots. Doesn't seem like a healthy relationship to me. Health insurance costs are also significantly higher on the outside. If you have something go down you could take a pretty big hit.

Just some food for thought.

Everyone talks about the money you could lose at the end of your career if you don't go to the airlines now. Well, how do you know you'll live that long? Will you be able to hold your medical into those years?  

To me this isn't a money decision. It is a quality of life decision. 

You can go around and around beating yourself up over all the "what if's", but money aside, the question I ask myself is, can I take 10 more years of this? Nope... and I'm a full time guardsman (ART) with the AGR option. I don't even have to deal with the AD'isms lot's of others put up with. I'll ride the rest of my time out min running the traditional guardsman lifestyle. ANG/AFRC is a good way to hang on to benefits.

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[Sprkt69]

12 hours ago, Gazmo said:

You can go around and around beating yourself up over all the "what if's", but money aside, the question I ask myself is, can I take 10 more years of this? Nope... and I'm a full time guardsman (ART) with the AGR option. I don't even have to deal with the AD'isms lot's of others put up with. I'll ride the rest of my time out min running the traditional guardsman lifestyle. ANG/AFRC is a good way to hang on to benefits.

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How do you keep a bunch of aircrew? Send them to the Guard/Reserves

[Gazmo]

How do you keep a bunch of aircrew? Send them to the Guard/Reserves

In general, yes, but start treating the Guard and Reserves like AD and you can watch us walk also. Remember, from a traditional Guardsman/Reservist standpoint, they don't offer us bonuses to stay past 10 and we've historically had people who were willing to go right to 28 years as a Lt Col before hitting the R-button, but as of late, a lot are just getting to 20 and punching.

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[ILoveScotch]

I know it's in the proposed NDAA, but I can't see them offering $60k/year, at least not right off the bat. Probably some sort of gradual increase, spread out over a decade or so. A sudden increase in bonus would be massively detrimental to good order and discipline. What's the incentive to perform if someone who's trained the same as you is getting paid up to $35k more per year for the same signed commitment, just because he was in the magic year group? 365's only go so far as a cattle prod. I can see the Air Force Times headline now: "Shortage in the cockpit: Pilots to get $540k extra to stay". Terrible optic for the force as a whole.

Gradual increases would be easier to stomach. On the other side of the coin, guys are going to be looking at that $60k authorization and holding off on signing up on the hopes it hits $60k in a year or so.

Poor option to optimally manage the force. You may keep the numbers you need for staff, but overall quality will definitely decline. I think monthly flight pay is the better route to success, with dramatic increases after 10 YAS, but they only upped it $150/month on the top end. Too little to matter, really.

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

I know it's in the proposed NDAA, but I can't see them offering $60k/year, at least not right off the bat. Probably some sort of gradual increase, spread out over a decade or so. A sudden increase in bonus would be massively detrimental to good order and discipline. What's the incentive to perform if someone who's trained the same as you is getting paid up to $35k more per year for the same signed commitment, just because he was in the magic year group? 365's only go so far as a cattle prod. I can see the Air Force Times headline now: "Shortage in the cockpit: Pilots to get $540k extra to stay". Terrible optic for the force as a whole.

Gradual increases would be easier to stomach. On the other side of the coin, guys are going to be looking at that $60k authorization and holding off on signing up on the hopes it hits $60k in a year or so.

Poor option to optimally manage the force. You may keep the numbers you need for staff, but overall quality will definitely decline. I think monthly flight pay is the better route to success, with dramatic increases after 10 YAS, but they only upped it $150/month on the top end. Too little to matter, really.

What's the current incentive to perform if someone trained the same as you is getting $25K more a year for the same signed commitment?  There are plenty of folks not eligible for the current bonuses because they were late-to-rate, or prior enlisted, or missed gate months when they were on an ALO or staff tour.  I'm not sure I see why the $60K would be that much different.

[ThreeHoler]

They doubled (roughly) the bonus after people took a 5 year $25K bonus...where is their incentive to perform when someone is getting 2x as much of the devil's money?

[ILoveScotch]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

What's the current incentive to perform if someone trained the same as you is getting $25K more a year for the same signed commitment?  There are plenty of folks not eligible for the current bonuses because they were late-to-rate, or prior enlisted, or missed gate months when they were on an ALO or staff tour.  I'm not sure I see why the $60K would be that much different.

Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level.

Prior enlisted: Same as above.

Missed gate months: Thats a lot of missed gate months.

 

I see your point. But now instead of $25k/yr difference in pay, it's a $60k/yr difference. I can see there being trouble. 

[ILoveScotch]

5 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

They doubled (roughly) the bonus after people took a 5 year $25K bonus...where is their incentive to perform when someone is getting 2x as much of the devil's money?

You could upgrade to the 9 year after the fact. Not sure if you still can but I know someone who did.

[BFM this]

Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level.

Prior enlisted: Same as above.

Missed gate months: Thats a lot of missed gate months.

 

I see your point. But now instead of $25k/yr difference in pay, it's a $60k/yr difference. I can see there being trouble. 

Prior: tell me how I didn't have the same commitment?

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, BFM this said:

Prior: tell me how I didn't have the same commitment?

He's a troll, so he probably can't.

[ThreeHoler]

You could upgrade to the 9 year after the fact. Not sure if you still can but I know someone who did.

Only one year group could upgrade. Everyone else with a 5 year was not given the option. The world didn't come to an end.

[guineapigfury]

Enlisted folks have seen disparities in reenlistment bonuses based on timing, work continued.  Everyone understands that getting a bonus is largely a product of luck and timing.  Late Rates and priors generally don't see them on the pilot side because big blue figures (usually correctly) that someone whose UPT ADSC takes them past 15 years or so is probably going to stick around for the next 5 years without a bonus.  If I was in charge of pilot manning, I'd offer folks the bonus to stick around even if it took them well past 20.

[Herk Driver]

Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level. 

I think he is talking some late to rate guys that were never eligible for a bonus.

[Herk Driver]

You could upgrade to the 9 year after the fact. 

Again, not everyone could. It changes every year. Some people were never eligible for the 9 year bonus, some never eligible for the 20/25 YAS bonus. YMMV.

[whis]

Enlisted folks have seen disparities in reenlistment bonuses based on timing, work continued.  Everyone understands that getting a bonus is largely a product of luck and timing.  Late Rates and priors generally don't see them on the pilot side because big blue figures (usually correctly) that someone whose UPT ADSC takes them past 15 years or so is probably going to stick around for the next 5 years without a bonus.  If I was in charge of pilot manning, I'd offer folks the bonus to stick around even if it took them well past 20.

I'm not 100% sure but I think in recent years they have removed any verbiage WRT bonuses and 15 years total time... Again this is how I am interpreting the current rules. And as "one of those guys" I'm not going to question it if they will offer me $300k over 5 years causing me to serve 21 years instead of 20. Here's to hoping there is some incentive added to the last (painfully undermanned) 5 years of my career.

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level.

Prior enlisted: Same as above.

Missed gate months: Thats a lot of missed gate months.

 

I see your point. But now instead of $25k/yr difference in pay, it's a $60k/yr difference. I can see there being trouble. 

Not the same aviation commitment?  Pretty sure it's 10 years, no matter what you did prior.

[ILoveScotch]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Not the same aviation commitment?  Pretty sure it's 10 years, no matter what you did prior.

I'm not talking about initial commitments. I'm talking about bonus commitments...

[Nobody]

I was under the impression when I went from e to o,  our e time could not be held against us and we were allowed to serve a full 20 o years, regardless of our tafmsd.   I'd be pretty salty of they didn't offer us (prior e) continuation bonuses with our year group peers simply because of our enlisted time.