Combat Systems Officer (CSO) info; Nav, EWO, WSO

[Guest bruno]

Does anybody know how or when to get selected to get a WSO slot? I have a Nav slot--I just don't know how to get into the strike nav category. It may be too late.

The second question is this: If I am going to Randolph how do I secure one of those new CSO slots?

I just read about the CSO the the ASA magazine. I wonder if it is all that it is cracked up to be.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

The Pensacola (ie. WSO) route is determined through your commissioning source. At OTS you compete with other NAVs in PFT, academic, and flight commander rating. I'm sure that ROTC and the Academy are similar in structure.

For CSO, once at Randolph everyone will begin with the same syllabus, then you will either track EWO or CSO depending on class standing. The best that I can see the new CSO program provides the panel NAV with more of an EWO background and the EWO with more aviation under their belt.

[Born a Longhorn]

What AMF said. Here is the article talking about the changes at Randolph: https://www.afa.org/magazine/Jan2005/0105combat.asp

[Guest gonads]

I am currently an EWO student at Randolph and I can vouch for this. I am one of the last non-CSO classes but we can see the positives of the program. Trust me, we had to deal with a lot of outdated training remenants (like parts of cell nav and the such) which have all but been eliminated from the CSO program. Enjoy it!

Oh, and go EWO!

[Guest deweygcc]

As the CSO program evolves toward full consolidation among the three subspecialties, said Griffin, AETC will need to provide very little “top-off” training. “If the Air Force needs a few more WSOs,” he said, “then it would be much easier to take a CSO-trained individual and transition him from a C-130 to an F-15E.”

That last line is Fing priceless.

[Guest FlyingAgain]

I hope they keep WSOs training at Pensacola for quite some time. Having gone through strike-nav training at Pensacola and EWO training at Randolph, there are some distinct advantages for Air Force WSOs who train at NASP. I think you get a better air sense because you're in the cockpit, running the radios and instruments (and some stick time in the T-34 or T-6), fixing timing problems, and running the radar (in the T-39). You do a lot of low-level work using either the radar or visual cues, or a combination of both (last four flights). Strike Eagle WSOs also get additional air to air training in the T-39. The Navy definately treats their NFOs better than the Air Force treats its Navs. But most importantly, the experience you get at NASP better translates into the skills needed as a Strike Eagle or Bone WSO, or BUFF radar nav.

[Guest bruno]

Thanks gang,

Lots of info there. I gues the only other questions are these: In order to get the most bang for my buck--should I try to get into the CSO or the WSO program? Will the Air Force treat me better as one or the other? Also which one more heavily recruited in the civilian world? Who will get the most command experience WSO-CSO?

Thanks a bunch gang

[Born a Longhorn]

Well, that's all up to you. Do you want to be a traditional panel Nav in a C-130? Want to be an EWO? Want to drop bombs in a F-15E or B-1?

Are you OTS or ROTC? Neither is "more heavily recruited" in the civilian world, and I assume you're referring to the OTS route. OTS recruiters just want you in as a Nav, they won't try to steer you one way or the other.

Myself, I'm going the OTS route (selected last September), and I still can't decide which track to take. I can't speak for your other questions.

[Guest Navtastic]

****LONGEST POST EVER****

I threw together a cut-and-paste of all the questions I've answered just to get them all in one place. Please ask further questions in this thread instead of a PM so I only have to answer them once. I'm happy to help, but y'all are a pain in the ass.

*What's life like at Randolph?

Depends on where you live. I chose to live off base, but many of my classmates took advantage of the dorms.

As for things to do outside of work, you'll never be bored. San Antonio is a great city for culture and entertainment. As touristy as it is, the Riverwalk is a great time on the weekends. There are several bars and clubs to choose from. You can also get your drink on in other parts of town, if that's your thing. My fave was an Irish bar and pub with live music on one side, a pub on the other, and pool tables and dart boards in the back. It’s called Sherlock’s, and it’s off of Hwy 281 and Thousand Oaks. Back in my time, it was the unofficial student bar.

As for outdoor activities, there are tons of things to do in the area. I spent a lot of time up at Canyon Lake (about 45 min from the base, to the north). Randolph has a recreation area out there. You can rent boats, skis, etc. and the pavilion areas are free to use on a first-come-first-serve basis. You don't even have to have a reservation. You do, however, need reservations for the cabins, and those go quickly. Sea World and Six Flags are on the west side of SA. Corpus Christie is about 2.5 hours south (fairly nice beaches), and Austin is 1 hour north (6th Street!). You don't even need to take leave to go to those two cities. You can go anywhere in a 300 mile radius from Randolph without taking leave - you just sign out with your flight commander. Forget about going to Mexico, though. It's a major no-no. Getting caught is not worth it. Try to tube the rivers at least once. There are two to choose from – the Guadalupe and the Comal. Fiesta is the SA version of Mardi Gras, and takes place in April out on the Riverwalk/La Villita area. I recommend you check it out.

*What are the dorms like?

I stayed off base, but I only got to do so because occupancy in the dorms was over 90% and I had a dog. There's no way I could have lived in the dorms, but I knew many who did and most liked it. I checked out the dorms before submitting my request to live off base, and decided in about 2.3 seconds that there was no way I was going to live there. They are small and dark. There is no separation of space. It's like living in a hotel room. It's basically just a bedroom with a kitchenette and bathroom. You have a full-sized refrigerator and can bring in a microwave, but you can't have any cooking surfaces (hotplate, Foreman Grill, etc.), so you end up eating a lot of junk. There's a bar top between the kitchen and bedroom, and that's really the only place you can work on your charts. The bedroom is furnished with a desk with bookshelf, entertainment center, tall dresser, nightstand, recliner and a full-size bed. There's a decent sized closet across from the sink/vanity area, which is not separate from the bedroom. The bathroom has an industrial-style toilet and a standard tub/shower combo. The dorms are right across the street from the flightline the T-38s use, so it's pretty noisy. Hell, they're just noisy in general. Too many people with diverse schedules living in a quad setup. Think college dorms, but the doors lead to the outside of the building instead of a hallway. You'll fight for laundry facilities. You are not grouped according to class. Can you tell I don't like the dorms?

If you are as picky as I am about where you live, you'll end up going over your BAH on your living expenses. My total expenses (rent, electric, W/S/T, cable, phone, and garage rental) came out to just over $900/month. BAH for a single 2LT is (now) around $830/month. There were cheaper options, but my choices were somewhat limited b/c I was looking only at places that allowed pets. I was also about 12 miles from the base, closer to downtown.

*What's a typical day?

Again, it depends. When you are in academics, you usually start at 0800, and can be released for the day anywhere from 1000 to 1600. Flights are usually in the morning, with show times starting at about 0445. Sims run almost 24 hours, with four standard show times. I was first in my class alphabetically, so I usually had first go (before 0600), but you can get out as late as 0200. Before starting class, you are assigned to NIFT flight. If you already have your PPL, you'll just muster for about 30 min every morning. They grab "volunteers" from NIFT flight to do errands or fill empty seats around the base. Try to volunteer a few times, and they won't "voluntell" you to do anything too terrible. I usually filled my squares by swearing in enlistees at the MEPS on Fort Sam Houston a few times a month. It was actually very fulfilling.

*What are the phases of training?

I’m not the best person to ask about that. I was in the second-to-last Nav class, and the CSO program has changed things a bit. Here’s a rough sketch. The first day is all paperwork. The rest of the first week and part of the second is spent at Aerospace Physiology going over how the body reacts to us doing something as stupid as flying through the air. You'll take care of your Altitude Chamber requirement then. You also get to try out a bunch of survival equipment, the emergency slide and possibly get in the pool to practice on the 20-man life raft (which is odd, b/c they can't fly studs over water). I believe we learned the basic principles of flight (airfoils, yaw, pitch, roll, drag, etc) in the next phase, and then moved on to weather. It's all a blur after that, and that's where the new program started making changes. Biggest change from the nav program to the CSO program to piss you off --> I got to go on a cross country to Key West for 4 days, but they did away with that perk right after I left. There are a few other differences I can tell you about. The CSOs spend more time behind the "black door" learning about EWO junk (booooooring), and they have to give a big-deal briefing sometime during this phase. They also learn a bastardized version of DR (dead reckoning) that causes headaches with the instructors here at LRAFB. C-130 navs rely heavily on DRs to get them across the pond, and what they are now teaching at Randolph just isn't working.

*What's the flying like?

The flights are a low-stress learning environment. You fly four standard routes over and over again, depending on where the good weather is. There are up to 12 students on board, with three actually "navigating" parts of the flight. One of those lucky three gives the briefing to the pilots before the flight (again, low stress - just read it off the briefing guide they give you). For the first flying phase, everyone is pretty uptight, but once you progress through the program, the INs (instructor navs) start to loosen up a bit and joke around with you. By my last flight I was BSing more than I was working, but it was also the trip back from the Keys....

Nav school is by no means easy. Yes, your pilot friends will have more stress (stand-up and mandatory “study halls”). Thing is, you are solely responsible for how well you do in the program. Everyone (well, almost) has at least one sticking point. I worked through mine early on in the program, but others were hit with a roadblock in the last phase, and it's scary. Randolph is where they weed out those who can't cut it. If it's all easy for you, congratulations.

*Why did you choose to be a Nav?

Simple. I don’t want to be a pilot, but I still want to fly. I suck at flying. There’s no point in me denying it. I suck at it so bad, it’s more stressful than fun. Why the hell would I ever want to subject myself (or a crew) to that on a regular basis? Also, I’m a geek. I love to sit at my little desk with my whiz wheel solving formulas and giving the pilots information. I get to participate in the jock world of flying, but still get to use my brain. The nav career field was the perfect option for me. It was my first choice when I applied for OTS, and I was wet-my-pants-happy to be selected for it.

*What jobs are available to navs outside of the operational squadrons?

Don't worry about being "stuck" doing one thing for your entire career. I'm still pretty new to this (in formal training for C-130s at Little Rock AFB right now), but I do know there are a ton of assignments available to navs outside the plane. You can do instructor duty in a few different places - back to Randolph, within your operational squadron, and at the formal training base for whatever airframe you were selected for. I'll more than likely be coming back to Little Rock as a 1Lt or young Capt to upgrade to IN. After my first tour, I'd like to make it back to Randolph so I can work on my Masters.

AFIT is a limited possibility for rated folks. They spend over a million bucks per nav in training, so yes, they do like to keep us close to the planes, but there are always exceptions.

If running around with grunts (Army guys) interests you, navs can do an Air Liaison Officer tour. You are the go-to guy for info on info on the AF and its capabilities in a forward-deployed Army unit. You can also get a HQ job. We had a three requals (2 LtCols and a Capt) in our class here at LRAFB who had just come from AMC and TACC up at Scott, and the Pentagon. You're not going to be able to do this as a second assignment (or possibly even third - the Capt was a rare case), but it's an option that really starts looking good when you have kids. You're less likely to deploy when you're flying a desk.

*What about cross-training to a different aircraft?

Cross training between airframes is somewhat common in the C-130 world, but usually only if you're going from slicks to special ops. Once you go specops, you're pretty much stuck there, and the career broadening opportunities are limited. They have a horrible retention rate, and I’ve heard it’s due to the high ops tempo. Hell, everyone has a high ops tempo right now, but the AFSOC guys seem to take it the hardest. While I was at Randolph I thought about trying for an AC-130 or MC-130 slot, but decided I'd like to make sure I'm actually good at my job first.

*What’s the washout rate?

My class of 34 (23 AF, 9 Navy) only had two people roll out into another class (1 AF, 1 Navy). The AF guy just needed some extra time in a particular phase. The Navy guy didn't make it. Don't be afraid to roll if you need to. It sucks, but it's not the end of your career. Just keep in mind that they're not reclassing guys into other career fields anymore due to force shaping. If you fail out of nav school, you kiss your bars goodbye.

* Where are some good places to eat? (Yes, I get this question a lot.)

I ate enough to gain back the 15 pounds I lost at OTS while at Randolph. You have to go to Old Tejas for the breakfast tacos. It's about 15 minutes from the base (south on FM 1976 – just keeeep going), but totally worth the drive. Chester's Hamburgers is right up the main drag from the base, and has the best onion rings I've ever had. If you've never experienced the heaven that is a Chipotle burrito, I insist you check it out. It's in the Forum shopping center. Ask around when you get to the base - everyone knows where it is. If you like sushi, Sushi Zushi on the west side of San Antonio is amazing (pricey, but totally worth it). There's also Sushi Chi up the road from the base, which also has a buffet that's pretty good. China Orchid in the Forum was a favorite lunch spot.

If you're a fan of tex-mex, you are going to be in food heaven in SA. There's a little hole-in-the-wall place on Nacogdoches between I-410 and FM 1604 that is awesome. It's called El Jalisco. I lived a few miles from there and ate there pretty often. Looks trashy, and they don't have a liquor license, but the burritos are awesome and huge - almost the size of your head. There are two restaurants by the same name on that street, and they are only a few blocks apart, so make sure you get the right one. It's next door to a tiny insurance agency, and across the street from a place called China Ho (awesome name). Don't go to the one further south on Nacogdoches that's in its own building. There are numerous places on the Riverwalk as well. Yes, they're super touristy, but I thought they were all very good. There's one place (can't remember the name) that has a 60 oz margarita that will make you forget the rest of your night and part of the next day (been there, done that). Just look for the host stand outside with the huge fishbowl margarita glass. They advertise the hell out of that thing.

I'm not a big fan of Italian unless I'm cooking it myself, so I really don't have any suggestions. If you want to try out some bastardized German food (and don't mind spending major bucks), try the Little Rhine on the Riverwalk. It's super expensive, all a la carte, but incredible - good date place.

*What are the “good” and “bad” assignments out of Randolph?

I can only tell you what my opinion of "good" and "bad" assignments are. The worst you can do as a nav out of RND is the KC-135. The gee whiz computer system has taken the nav out of the picture on most flights. The navs only fly when they do a specops mission. Therefore, they get stuck doing nothing but flight planning for the pilots. Not cool. If I plan the mission, I want to execute it. AWACS and JSTARS assignments aren't that great either. You're just helping the pilot burn donuts in the sky. It's like NASCAR - go fast, turn left. Not my idea of a good time at all. The "good" assignments are RCs, BUFFs and the C-130 and all its variants. But that's just my opinion.

*WTF do the EWOs do?

I’m not an EWO, so I’ll guess. EWOs work on countermeasures, threats and other junk. In short, they listen to beeps and squeaks and let the crew know what the hell it is that's lighting them up. They work the defensive systems to help counter the threats. They can also go on the offensive and jam threats. It's a bunch of geek speak that I only have a superficial understanding of. Again, not my thing. IF YOU WANT AN ACCURATE PICTURE, ASK AN EWO. DON’T GO OFF OF WHAT I’VE TOLD YOU!

*What made you pick nav over EWO? And why the C-130?

I had already chosen what plane I wanted before I even left to go to OTS. The C-130 doesn’t have an EWO, so that made things pretty simple. I don’t like to speak geek in public, so that was a second reason. Somebody (who is most definitely NOT a nav – WSOs have the same wings, but have no idea what I do) got me pretty fired up on another site after they started spouting off about my career field, so I’ll share what I said to them in response:

I do a hell of a lot more than just "assist" the pilot, especially in air-land missions. I make sure we're on time, on target, safe from threats and within airspace boundaries. I calculate turn timing so we don't run into other aircraft in formations. I determine where we should be and how we are going to get there when we do an airdrop. I call the drop. When someone starts shooting at us, I deploy the chaff and flares and help call the evasive maneuvering. Navs do the "higher thinking" (math and related problems) so the pilot can get the plane where it needs to be. In high level, there is a lot less for me to do, but I'm primarily responsible for making sure we're not tooling off into the middle of nowhere. I keep track of the navigation equipment to keep track of malfunctions. If the INS or GPS goes tango uniform, I bust out the magic tricks that keep us on course. I monitor fuel levels. I do the route planning. If we have to divert, I figure our new course. Of course, most of what I've described is what we do in the C-130 world, one of the last places where the nav can run the show, but it should give you a pretty good idea of what the career field is all about.

I love the C-130 and fought hard to get my slot. The mission is diverse - delivering cargo, passengers, supplies, and troops to the war. We also transport injured and fallen soldiers home from the war. Humanitarian, mobility, supply, medevac.... I can do it all and see the world while doing it.

*What about deployments?

I can only tell you about the C-130 schedule. My deployment schedule is 4 months in the desert, 4 months stateside, rinse, repeat. The squadrons at Dyess (where I'm going) and Pope have this schedule, and the whole squadron deploys together, but the guys at Little Rock go in shifts (a few crews at a time).

*Am I going to need to brush up on some math before getting to Randolph?

Don't sweat the math stuff. My major was sociology with an emphasis in criminology, minor in history, and I had no problems when I got to Randolph. It's basically 7th grade math. As long as you can divide by 3 and 60, you are good to go. The highest math you'll need to know is basic right-triangle geometry, and they'll teach it to you all over again.

*What was your class’s drop like?

My class at Randolph was fairly large. I think we got a pretty good drop, and almost everyone in our class got their first or second choice. Here's what it looked like:

• 3 AWACS (all three guys wanted it)
  1 JSTARS (that guy REALLY wanted it)
  3 B-52s (first choice of all who got it)
  6 C-130s (2 to LRAFB, 2 to Pope, 2 to Dyess - not the first choice for everyone who got it, but we're all pleased)
  1 C-130 to Kadena (youngest kid in our class took that. He’s in for an eye-opening experience)
  1 MC-130P (to Mildenhall - #1 guy in our class got it. His first choice, plane AND base. Do well at Randolph and you can write your own ticket, too.)
  1 EC-130 (not this guy's first choice, but he's really excited about it now)
  1 HC-130 (SpecOps. She's tickled to death.)
  2 RC-135s (there was almost a fight for those)
  2 KC-135s (bottom of the class. The guy is happy. The chick is NOT.)
  

*What are the “coveted slots”?

The "top 3" vary from class to class. In some classes, everyone goes nuts for the specops planes. Other classes have mad competition for the BUFFs. My class went crazy for the C-130s and the RC-135s.

*How much studying is involved?

I can't really give you a typical amount of study time. Some days you have a ton of reading that takes all evening to get through. Others, you don't have anything at all. You'll get your courseware packets at the beginning of each phase. At the beginning of each lesson, it will list the supplemental reading. It's not optional reading - you have to whip out the pubs and cover the stuff before class, because it's not rehashed in the courseware. The instructors can spot those who didn't prepare. Also, there is some workbook-type material in the courseware. When I was going through, if you failed a test and hadn't completed the exercises, you were in deep schtuff. They give you everything you need to pass, so if they find out you weren't using the materials, it's pretty bad stuff. I was a total slacker before nav school. I skated through high school and college without cracking most of my books, but nav school was a whole different ballgame. The reading is critical.

Living off base didn't keep me from studying. Our flight had mandatory study groups, and that definitely helped a ton. We got to pick our groups, so getting together wasn't exactly a chore. Everyone in my group lived off base, so we just took turns "hosting" study sessions before each test. Our class had almost all 100s on just about every test, so the study groups definitely paid off.

*What do you know about IFS?

Nothing. I went through the old NIFT program. The only thing I know is that the hours increased from 20 to 25. Got that info from the guy who works in the NIFT office at Randolph.

*How did you deal with the dog during nav school?

I never brought my dog down to SA. After all the searching for a place where I could have him, and then paying the pet deposit, I asked my parents to adopt him. That was the hardest thing I've ever done - he's like a child to me. I realized once I got to SA that it wouldn't be fair to him. I had days where I was away from the apartment for over 12 hours. I also knew I wouldn't have the time or energy to exercise him properly. He's a beagle, and those little stinkers need to be entertained or they make your life miserable. He'd been with my parents in a big house with nice yard for almost 2 years already, and had another dog for company, so it wouldn't have been right for me to take him away from that. Plus, as you mentioned, I knew I'd have to give him to my parents every time I deployed. Don't get a dog unless you have someone to take care of it every time you leave.

[ 26. January 2006, 18:04: Message edited by: Navtastic ]

[Young Crow]

Normally I don't bite off on these posts, because I think most people, myself included, would just be better off jumping into these kinds of situations and seeing things for themselves.

I'll give you the same advice that many have given to the dude who really wants to memorize the -1 before they get to UPT: you'll have plenty of time in training to think about training - take some time before hand to enjoy yourself and NOT think about aviation.

That being said, I do take some exception to what Navtastic said, so I'll highlight some differences, and emphasize some agreements:

- Life at Randolph:

Beautiful base, probably better than most bases at which you'll find yourself. Live off base, enjoy your BAH. Living on base at Randolph is the worst decision I have yet made in my USAF career. Besides being close, the dorms suck. You want your own kitchen.

Austin is awesome. As for Sherlock's... An Irish pub? Being one who's been to many Irish pubs all around the world, including in Ireland, Sherlock's could best be described as a normal American bar. I've been looking for a good pub atmosphere in San Antonio - it doesn't exist.

- CSO Phases

1. Aerospace Phys

You learn some survival, physiology stuff, etc. Take a test, go in the altitude chamber, really not too threatening.

2. Introduction to Navigation

Basically all about the wiz-wheel, with some basic chart usage thrown in. Lasts a week or two.

3. Fundamentals of Navigation

Learn how to do instrument approaches and departures, radio-aid navigation, aviation weather, services, and basic aircraft instruments and systems.

4. Systems Navigation

They add the radar and INS, and then throw some weather into the sims that you'll have to avoid.

5. Intermediate (once called 'Global')

Same as SN, except this time you "do" air refueling, search an operations area, and then do a divert on the fly. Sadly, this is the first part of navigation training that requires timing control.

6. Operations

Approximately one month of classes learning about the capabilities of friendly and non-friendly weapons systems.

7. Advanced (EWO)

I would not trade what I've learned during my EWO training for most anything. I would also not post what I, or other EWOs, have learned on a public forum.

8. Integration

Plan and brief a large, multi-sortie combat operation. Lasts about a week.

9. T-1As

Get 9 hours flying in the jump seat of a T-1A with the 99th Flying Training Squadron. You also get 3 sim hours in the T-1A sim, which is fun.

Then you graduate, get some squash-bug wings, and go off to survival and your FTU.

- Cross Countries

CSO are going on X-countries again. The EWOs go for 4 days, the Navs for 3. Based on differences in squadron policy between the 562nd (nav) and 563rd (EWO).

- Flying/Sim'ing

For those who like flying, CSO training will certainly be a supreme disappointment in that aspect. The flights are pretty sparse, most of your T-43 flights occurring in a 2-month period. You're flying a 737, with 16 navigators onboard (12 studs + 4 INs) and 2 pilots. Needless to say, you spend most of the time staring at a radar or TACAN, instead of controlling the aircraft, talking on the radio, scanning out the window, or communicating with the crew.

I have a whole rant lined up for this, but don't feel like being a completely grumpy bastard. I will say that in a few years when Randolph closes up nav training, and it's all moved down to Pensacola, the Air Force and every navigator student thereafter will benefit greatly. They simply do it better down there.

- Choose to be a Nav?

I was genuinely happy when I found out I was going to nav school, and being an EWO is the second best nav job out there (I'd rather be in the back seat of a Mud Hen or Bone). Would I rather be a pilot? Hell yeah I would. Unfortunately, just wasn't in the cards for me. Am I still a little bitter? Of course, but I'm damned happy to be in the air. Nothing against being a navigator, it's a respectable, and in some aircraft, necessary vocation. I'd just feel better with a window, stick and throttles.

- Washout Rate

I honestly wish it was higher. Too many people get through that shouldn't. Two people failed out of my class, 2 people washed back for busted checkrides/test failures.

- Sushi Zushi

I'm a sushi snob. This place is bad. Not as bad as Sushi Chi, or any other place in SA, but bad. Things that are supposed to be warm were cold, the cold stuff was warm. Oh, and they smother everything in Chipotle Mayo, whether you like it or not. For sushi though, it was pretty cheap.

- Assignments Out of Randolph

Navtastic is pretty much right. As for the KC-135R... A lot of guys have been trying to get this assignment, because some people have been told that it means a "guaranteed" slot to pilot training. Their FTU is less than 3 weeks long, because they don't fly more than a few hours a month. They're mainly used as mission planners. Oh, and with a few exceptions it's the guys at the bottom of their nav class that think they're gaming the system and going to go be pilots.

- EWO

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to hear about being an EWO. I love it, because it means you're deeply involved in honest-to-god combat operations. Not dropping toilet paper in Kenya or delivering diapers to Abu Dhabi. Geek speak and beeps and squeaks? Not really. About 2 weeks are spent on the 'beeps and squeaks' to give you a good foundation.

- Math

7th grade math? Probably 4th grade is closer. Simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

- Studying

Really didn't need to study much during most of nav training, just did a few hours of prep work before sims and flights.

During the EWO portion, I would spend upwards of 12-16 hours a day at the squadron in class/studying. Definitely the most rewarding training I've gone through.

I'm in a good mood, but this is a surprisingly critical post looking back on it. I guess I'm just better at criticizing than building things up.

Nevertheless, love having the wings and getting paid to do something I absolutely love.

[Guest trouble t]

I just graduated from CSO training. A few things:

1. Re: all the coursework, flying, etc: RELAX. Save your drinking for the weekends, study your SOBs for academics (just like you did in your commissioning source), get your flight cc or another instructor you trust to help you mission prep (can't hurt to have the evaluators give you tips), and try to get specific gouge about upcoming tests/sims from your buddies in the class ahead of you. I'm not saying cheat (that's hardly necessary); just know your threat environment. If you do all these simple things and you STAY COOL on your checkrides, repeat, STAY COOL, RELAX for your checks, then you'll have your choice of assignments.

2. Living in the dorms: convenient, but barely comfortable. There's plenty of decent apartment complexes nearby where you can have a decent place while banking a little of that BAH. If you're forced into the dorms get yourself a crock pot, a foreman grill, and a rice cooker or you will become a Chipotle/Taco Cabana junkie...

3. I agree that San Antonio = good food/weight gain; however, there are two gyms on base -- the main gym and the aerospace phys gym, which is open 24/7 if you can get the door code out of one of the friendly lieutenants who work there. That's the only number you'll be getting from them though.

4. F--- the San Antonio bar scene. Two words: ROAD TRIP. Austin's got about 20,000 college girls walking around. Dallas ain't bad either. Houston, Corpus, Galveston, San Marcos (another college town just 30 min up the road from KRND), Shiner for the brewery tour and free beer, South Padre island around Spring Break time...if you stay in San An, you'll wonder what all the hype's about. If you get out and see TEXAS, you'll understand.

Good luck.

Trouble T

[Guest CrashCB18]

That cross country was a great time! Vegas with all your buds from flight training. And Navtastic was right about the easy trip home. It was my IN's last flight, and told me and the other student... we could either work for our "Excellents," or call the flight a done ride before t/o and get a mixed bunch of "goods" and "excellents." Wasn't bad putting my head down to sleep on a 737 after a restless weekend in Vegas!

Plus, you can learn how to work the system and the INs are cool if you show you know your s**t. In Global (Intermediate for CSOs) you have some longer flights. Well, during approaches, my one IN is watching only three students as opposed to four and I was sitting behind him (STS for all you pilots). He's trying his hardest to watch the two in front of him, but not turning his head to make sure i'm making the "thousand to level, 200 to level, MDA, etc" calls. All in all, I go ahead and nod off during the 15 minute approach. Nice preemptive nap before being off the rest of the afternoon!

In the end, Randolph is one of the easiest programs for a flyer. As long as you keep on top of what they're teaching you and don't walk into a sim hungover (like I've had a friend do and surprisingly do decent), you'll be fine! SA is a great town and live it up! Most other flight training bases don't get the advantages of a big city like we do.

[Guest dcamp]

AWACS and JSTARS assignments aren't that great either. You're just helping the pilot burn donuts in the sky.

As a co-pilot here in the JSTARS guard unit, I can't speak for the AWACS, but I can tell you the nav stays pretty busy on our missions. Your donuts in the sky is much more representative of what I do. On a training sortie (full mission, not P-sortie (no nav) ), I'm dumb and happy on station waiting for night AR or doing three engine VFR stuff back at home. The nav on the other hand has his hands full. He's a liason between the many dudes in the back, and the flight deck. Like most normal navs I guess, he's done the CFPS flight plan, initial fuel planning, gathered notams, weather. He also works with the flying intel dudes on develpoing defense stuff based on threats, scram/slide plans, working out DCA issues, he takes what RJ's, AWACS, intel gives us and turns it into something useful. If we have a nav on board, he's got control of the INU's, GPS, etc. as well as being responsible for inserting/modifying flight plan into FMS. Well come to think of it, all of this does indeed really just help us burn holes. Any and all of the info provided can be trumped by the AC, and decisions relating to the safety of the airplane still reside with him/her. Just didn't want you to give the impression that these guys were sitting back there staring at a whiz wheel saying, "ok...uhm...turn left", etc. Had to stick up for the nav

[Guest cmaston]

DMC

I have some questions about the JSTARS. Is it true that the NAV is in the ass end of the plane and not on the flight deck?

I am assuming you are a Guard pilot, how many of the Navs are active vs guard? How often would you say the guard guys get deployed?

I want to go EWO, but I was thinking about eventually becoming a Guard JSTARS nav so I can be back near Atlanta(wife from there and I am a GT alumni).

Any info would be super and thanks.

[Guest CrashCB18]

blkafnav,

My apologies for making nav training out to be a cakewalk. It isn't. Probably didn't help that I was drinking when I typed that....

In the beginning of Nav School, its a different type of thinking and frame of mind that, for any navigator, is new. Ask a pilot how'd he'd feel about 8-9 months of IFR flying training. Thats essentially what is required from a nav. We have to look at 6-10 flight instruments, without a windscreen, and point on a chart where we were, are, will be, and times for all of those. It requires a person to think abstractly (is that even a word?), and I stumbled my first couple of sims. It would have been nice to have a picture of the world underneath us for a little pilotage, but thats not what we get paid for. Once I saw myself and my peers click in the sim, then training became much easier. But, I won't deny that it is challenging to get to that point!

[Guest Lightninbo]

Its pretty simple here...If you like aviation and you are chosing between ewo and nav... the obvious choice is nav. You like computers and all that is associated with them, go EWO... to each his own.

[Young Crow]

Originally posted by Lightninbo:

Its pretty simple here...If you like aviation and you are chosing between ewo and nav... the obvious choice is nav. You like computers and all that is associated with them, go EWO... to each his own.

I disagree whole-heartedly with this.

I love flying, and frankly, most EWOs I know are more interested in 'aviation' than the majority of navs I know.

For me, the decision was this:

- There is, in fact, navigation training done in UPT. The pilots generally know how to do everything you're doing, and I'm not interested in being a human fuel calculator or FMS data entry clerk.

- Most pilots don't go through a comprehensive EW course. If I'm going to do something, I want to be the dude to make the decisions. I want to be the expert.

- I wanted to go to a combat aircraft, and all EWOs go to combat aircraft. The majority of navs do not. I'm sure every Herk nav will point out how low and slow they fly over enemy territory, but their goal is to stay away from the enemy, not penetrate their defenses.

As always, your mileage my vary. This is how my decision process went.

Flame on.

[Riddller]

So I just talked to one of the higher-ups here at IFS and got some info which might be interesting to you future and current CSO/Navs wanting pilot slots.

It was different enough that I felt justified in starting a new thread.

This information is current as of 13 June 2007.

1: The first combined CSO/pilot class at IFS will be reporting at the end of the summer. They will all be in the same class and go through the same syllabus. All CSOs will eventually be coming here before UNT.

2: If a CSO student is great at navigating around but sucks at landings, the IFS people have no idea if they will wash them out or not.

3: If there is a CSO student who turns out to be the next Chuck Yaeger (sp?) and can fly circles around every other student (pilot OR CSO selectee) in the class, there will still be NO CROSSING THE STREAMS!!! A CSO/Nav student CANNOT get a pilot slot here, and a pilot student CANNOT get a Nav slot here. AFPC can still, of course, do whatever they want whenever they want...

----HOWEVER---

These first few classes of CSOs will have their records annotated that they completed IFS for BOTH pilot and navigator.

This means that if you are a CSO/Nav who applies to the AD board later on in your career and gets selected, you do NOT have to come back to IFS. You can go straight to UPT.

4: If you are a current Nav planning on going to UPT, you WILL come to IFS first if your UPT start date is more than about 6-9 months away from now. Even if you already completed NIFT.

5: In another 6-9 months or so, from now, CSOs will go through a different syllabus from the pilots, one with fewer rides. These graduates will NOT have their records annotated that they completed IFS for both pilot and Nav. Therefore if they get picked up for UPT later, they will have to come back to IFS and complete the pilot syllabus before attending UPT.

They are still inventing the wheel here, so this stuff may change, but this is the current plan.

If you have any more questions about this stuff, post them while I'm still at IFS (until the end of June). We see the higher-ups at roll-call and what-not all the time, and they have no problem talking about their plans for this place with us.

Hope this helps!!

[Guest sharkfood911]

NIFT ended awhile ago. Everyone's on the IFS syllabus right now, even though CSOs are doing it locally for a bit longer. So I wouldn't put money on recent CSOs having to go to Pueblo if they switch to pilot.

[Guest JoeBuk06]

I was just at the detachment and we all found out our futures. I ended up with CSO selection. Its a bitter sweet thing I guess. Always had my eye set on pilot but just being in the air makes me happy. Since I have always had my eye set on pilot I have never researched the CSO career field. The only thing that ever interested me were the B-1's and F-15's for CSO as a back up plan. Now that I have a CSO slot how do I decide or what do I have to do to get sent to Florida for WSO training? Any information in general will be very helpful. Thanks

Cheers to all those who categorized and best of luck to those who didn't. Keep your heads up the Air Force still needs you and our country to !!!

[magnetfreezer]

To get picked up for strike nav out of ROTC you must have volunteered for it on the original categorization wishlist form you filled out (similar to stating that if you get picked up for pilot, you are volunteering for ENJJPT). The rest seems to be a straight OM pick - I got my WSO slot when all the ENJJPT slots for my det were announced. Don't know if they factor the PCSM as much in there, though. Depending on the year group, you may get picked up later as well - one dude in my squadron was an 07 grad and going to Randolph until they managed to switch him to Pcola 2-3 weeks before EAD since many of the original WSO selects had gotten picked up off the alternate pilot list. The other nav select at my det, however, had not volunteered for strike nav originally and so they were unable to transfer him from Randolph into one of the open WSO slots.

Whenever they get all the nav training moved to PCola you will be able to compete for strike during training similar to the way UPTers do track select. I'll leave the discussion of the nav lifestyle to the folks with wings; however IMHO a 12 hour day studying airplanes with some spin recovery thrown in beats 8 hours writing TPS reports with mandatory Tops in Blue attendance any day

[Guest hawg030]

Dont be down on getting CSO, even if your not going PCola!. Its not the end of the world, Air Crew is Air Crew, (however a little rock NAV told me once to stay away from certain aircraft, citing new systems would replace the traditional nav soon.)(edit for all you guys) And there are some great EWO jobs, RC135's, 52's, ec-130, and a bunch of Nav and Ewo positions on AFSOC birds. I too wanted pilot, but big blue says otherwise, thats fine. Just go be a NAV, find a mission you love, be the best NAV at Randolph or PCola to get that mission. Dont be that guy "the guy who is there cause he has to be, but is still bummed about not being a pilot for the rest of ROTC and Nav School"

GL man and Cheers to your CSO Slot

Edited March 2, 2008 by hawg030

[drewpey]

I was just at the detachment and we all found out our futures. I ended up with CSO selection. Its a bitter sweet thing I guess. Always had my eye set on pilot but just being in the air makes me happy. Since I have always had my eye set on pilot I have never researched the CSO career field. The only thing that ever interested me were the B-1's and F-15's for CSO as a back up plan. Now that I have a CSO slot how do I decide or what do I have to do to get sent to Florida for WSO training? Any information in general will be very helpful. Thanks

Cheers to all those who categorized and best of luck to those who didn't. Keep your heads up the Air Force still needs you and our country to !!!

Listen dude, I was in your exact shoes about three years ago or whatever. Bummed about nav, cause I had no idea what navs did, let alone what an EWO was, because all dets do is have pilots out to talk to students, because everyone wants to be a pilot.

As far as getting to pensacola, there are tons of theories out there, but IMO it's a monkey with a dartboard deciding. We had a cadet with a randolph nav slot go straight to pilot while we had a cadet going to pensacola. If it really is OM like people claim, that wouldn't have happened.

Once you start going through nav school, you will start to realize its not necessarily what you do to contribute to the mission, but rather what mission you are contributing to. I enjoy my job, and love the mission, and that what counts. Sure everyone bags on each other about their job, but at the end of the day, it's a crew aircraft you're going to, and if your ass is in the seat for a reason, they need you. Once you make it into the cockpit, you'll look around and realize that you're making the same amount of money as your rank-similar pilots, and probably having as much fun flying.

Who knows, you might actually end up enjoying being a nav/ewo, and not want to go pilot, there are plenty of us out there.

Any more questions, just ask.

Oh, and if you have the skill and opportunity, go SpecOps.

[Guest hawg030]

let it be known too that those herk nav's were still on the "cry me a river I didnt get a pilot slot" So its no wonder they trash talked their own airframe. It was quite a sobering experience that has scared me a bit from the NAV side of the house. When I get to randolph, it makes me already want to consider EWO without knowing jack about them.

[Toasty]

let it be known too that those herk nav's were still on the "cry me a river I didnt get a pilot slot" So its no wonder they trash talked their own airframe. It was quite a sobering experience that has scared me a bit from the NAV side of the house. When I get to randolph, it makes me already want to consider EWO without knowing jack about them.

That's not a well-informed decision either. A C-130 nav who hates his job has personal issues he/she needs to get over. I'm a C-130 nav, and I absolutely love what I'm doing. Yes, I put in for a pilot slot in ROTC, but didn't get one. Yes, I tried to go special ops from Randolph, but didn't get it. Oh well...this job kicks ass, the crews are great, the locations "can" be great too, and people who say otherwise are just bitter at life.

And you're a cadet still, so I would highly recommend keeping your pie hole shut about real world things you know absolutely dick about.