Combat Systems Officer (CSO) info; Nav, EWO, WSO

[MD]

Thread revival....

Reading a post in the CFI thread and having a couple questions about table Navs, this thread seemed the most appropriate place for it.

Is traditional Nav going to be a track much longer at SUNT? I ask this with the knowledge of various airframes no longer using Navs besides RC-135s and various C-130 models (if there's more, I just missed listing them). And with 130s having some J-models, and the other models (some, all?) going AMP, are traditional Navs going to be a almost a thing of the past soon?

Also, anyone know why the cultural difference exists between AF Navs (WSOs, EWOs, etc) and Navy NFOs? In terms of how the Navy treats NFOs as akin to co-pilots, whereas the AF doesn't? Are there still differences in how Navs are seen vis a vis command opportunities as opposed to what the Navy lets NFOs do or qualify for?

[nsplayr]

Is traditional Nav going to be a track much longer at SUNT? I ask this with the knowledge of various airframes no longer using Navs besides RC-135s and various C-130 models (if there's more, I just missed listing them). And with 130s having some J-models, and the other models (some, all?) going AMP, are traditional Navs going to be a almost a thing of the past soon?

I'll try to answer the best I can as a current nav school dude (i.e. based on briefings we've gotten, etc.)

There are still plenty of platforms you can drop out of nav school as it currently stands. Everything will be getting a major overhaul when nav school moves to P-cola in the near future, and from what I've heard people graduating with CSO slots as 2009 college grads are getting orders to P-cola, not Randolph.

The way it is right now, there are still two "tracks" you can pick from/compete for, advanced nav & ewo. All of us are called "CSOs" but that doesn't really mean much right now until the P-cola syllabus can get up and running. Everyone gets a little electronic warfare training, everyone knows how to operate the radar, but in practice you're still either a "nav" or an "ewo," with implications on what aircraft you can select and what jobs you will do in the real air force.

Airframes you can get as a nav: slick C-130, AC-130, EC-130, HC-130, RC-135, B-52, AWACS, JSTARS, KC-135, U-28

Airframes you can get as a EWO: AC-130, EC-130, RC-135, B-52, U-28

Airframes you can only get out of P-cola as a WSO: B-1, F-15E

Like I said above, once everything moves to P-cola it will change and students will be able to compete for any of these aircraft in theory (however they are starting to get rid of traditional navs on KC-135s and AWACS, but it's a slow process and they're still dropping currently)

So you did leave off a few aircraft you can fly as a nav. But your point is taken that, yea, they are getting rid of traditional "tacan & radar" navs on some jets, but that's why a new syllabus is being developed and implemented at P-cola. Graduates from there will be the first real "CSOs" in my opinion because anyone training at Randolph is not getting fundamentally different training than anyone who came through here in the past 15 years (other than the navs experiencing a little electronic warfare intro in Ops phase).

In terms of the difference between Navy vs. AF lifestyles as a CSO/NFO, I have no idea. The navy dudes in my class always said AF was gay and were always spouting off with things like "bulkhead" and "aye skipper" etc., so take from that what you will :)

Finally, whoever made this thread originally should be shot. For real...Combat Support Officer?? As a (soon-to-be) rated officer I'd tell anyone who says I'm in a "support" role to eat it. CSO stands for Combat Systems Officer, since CSOs run "combat systems" such as tactical comms, weapons & navigational radars, jamming pods, ISR systems, etc. It's almost like calling a pilot a bus driver on accident...party foul

[drewpey]

are traditional Navs going to be a almost a thing of the past soon?

Yes. The nav career field is dieing. This is why they are shifting it towards the CSO concept, which is going to be around for a long while. It's less specific, because the jobs vary vastly from platform to platform. No new planes will have a "nav" or "ewo" requirement, but rather a CSO. CSOs will find themselves doing less and less navigation and more specific duties tied with the role of the aircraft (IE airdrops, working sensors, communication) or whatever else the copilot pushes onto you. Yeah, no one likes the CSO term, and for right now it doesn't really fit, but in the near future it will be a lot more applicable.

Also, anyone know why the cultural difference exists between AF Navs (WSOs, EWOs, etc) and Navy NFOs? In terms of how the Navy treats NFOs as akin to co-pilots, whereas the AF doesn't?

I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate? As far as the AF side of the house goes, nav/ewo treatment varies greatly between platforms, so drawing a generalization about how they are treated vs the navy might be a stretch.

Are there still differences in how Navs are seen vis a vis command opportunities

As a nav, command opportunities are not too common. If you dig around on the AFPC website it has graphs of the exact numbers. It's possible, and should you get picked for the opportunity, it will most likely be of a non-operational squadron. Nav-type CCs are all around, but usually in the places you least expect them. At the end of the day, it's still a command, if that's what you are looking for.

Is Celestial still being taught?

No. They stopped a few years ago. There is a group of retired crusties around Randolph that offer to teach it to the willing, if nothing more than a nod to the past, but it's not well advertised around the schoolhouse, so no one really knows about it.

As a (soon-to-be) rated officer I'd tell anyone who says I'm in a "support" role to eat it

Don't have that type of attitude. Support isn't a 4-letter word. We are the Air Force, and that's our job, to support. We keep the skies safe, and ground clear, and the troops on the ground well fed so they can get the real mission done. Too many people running around the AF today thinking they are the mission, and the "tip of the spear". You're just another cog in one huge ass-kicking machine. You might not have meant it the way you said it, however even saying things like that give people (IE ground pounders) the wrong impression of how we view our j-o-b.

Airframes you can get as a nav: slick C-130, AC-130, EC-130, HC-130, RC-135, B-52, AWACS, JSTARS, KC-135, U-28

Airframes you can get as a EWO: AC-130, EC-130, RC-135, B-52, U-28

one left...evidently still the best kept secret at nav school...

you mentioned navs being dropped for U-28s. What will their job be?

click

[backseatdriver]

MC-130 (P and W models on the Nav side, P model on the EWO side)

Only Navs on Wombats and Shadows - no EWOs.

[old crow]

As a nav, command opportunities are not too common. If you dig around on the AFPC website it has graphs of the exact numbers. It's possible, and should you get picked for the opportunity, it will most likely be of a non-operational squadron. Nav-type CCs are all around, but usually in the places you least expect them. At the end of the day, it's still a command, if that's what you are looking for.

I'd say depends on the community. In the recce world, EWO/Nav compete equal, if not better than pilots, for command of operational sqdns, OSS and FTU sqdns.

[MD]

With CSOs then, does that mean that B-52s will no longer have hard crew (sts) positions in the back and downstairs anymore? Guys will occupy whichever seat they're assigned ala the B-1 OSO/DSO going to WSO? And on that subject, why are they still kept separate on the BUFF?

[busdriver]

I very little about the Navy, however the WSOs in the backseat of the hornets tended to be the mission commanders when I was at fallon for desert rescue. In other words the pilots flew and defended the aircraft, the WSO worried about the bigger picture.

As to what CSOs will do in the U-28 world: they originally had it set up that two pilots could do everything. My guess is that due to very short manning, they realized they can increase their pool of bodies by opening the non-pilot duties to other capable bodies, ie navs. If you know what the U-28 actually does, I think you know what I'm talking about.

[nsplayr]

Asking a serious question here...you mentioned navs being dropped for U-28s. What will their job be? I'm not trying to make a joke here, I am completely naive on this airframe and would like to know...

Like others have said, you can get U-28 from either nav or ewo side and you sit the same seat/do the same job operationally. It's tight lipped/classified on what that is exactly but I'm hoping to find out soon enough since that's what I wanna drop.

Don't have that type of attitude. Support isn't a 4-letter word. We are the Air Force, and that's our job, to support. We keep the skies safe, and ground clear, and the troops on the ground well fed so they can get the real mission done. Too many people running around the AF today thinking they are the mission, and the "tip of the spear". You're just another cog in one huge ass-kicking machine. You might not have meant it the way you said it, however even saying things like that give people (IE ground pounders) the wrong impression of how we view our j-o-b.

click

Your right...didn't mean to come off in a derogatory way to any other career field. I agree that there are way too many flyers who think they are shit hot when they really just piss everyone else off. I'm just happy to get in the fight one way or another and feel lucky that I'll get the chance to do that in the air vs. on the ground/sea.

As other people pointed out, I forgot in include MC-130s on the list. From what they told our class, you can drop MCs as an EWO but not as a nav anymore. Apparently they don't want to take stud navs from the pipeline anymore on MCs after the crash a little while back. We're probably getting 1 MC-130 for the EWOs (our #2 guy wants MCs) and none for navs.

With CSOs then, does that mean that B-52s will no longer have hard crew (sts) positions in the back and downstairs anymore? Guys will occupy whichever seat they're assigned ala the B-1 OSO/DSO going to WSO? And on that subject, why are they still kept separate on the BUFF?

We've heard from Buff instructors on both nav and EWO side that they're moving to a model where radar nav, the regular nav, and the ewo are all qualified to sit each seat. Not sure if it's happening right now but for guys who want to go Buff were told to expect it in the future.

[dkc0820]

As other people pointed out, I forgot in include MC-130s on the list. From what they told our class, you can drop MCs as an EWO but not as a nav anymore. Apparently they don't want to take stud navs from the pipeline anymore on MCs after the crash a little while back. We're probably getting 1 MC-130 for the EWOs (our #2 guy wants MCs) and none for navs.

This is not true. I just dropped an MC-130P on the nav side three weeks ago (my class didn't have EWO drops). They also drop the W model about every other class.

[FireMission]

He is referring to the MC-130H Talon II as not being able to be dropped to pipeline nav right now.

[WEAPON]

UNT grads are not eligible for the MC-130H as a Nav. Last year at one of the Command Day forums, the MC-130 guys told us to be an H-model Nav, you MUST have prior 130 experience. I could have sworn he said 1000 hrs but I could be wrong. Either way, no H-model out of Randolph. P's and W's are fair game though. I wish those guys the best if that is what they want. I graduated from UNT in May and from what I understand, Kirtland is so backed up that people are looking at almost a year before they start the MC FTU.

[Guest ElRoy]

UNT grads are not eligible for the MC-130H as a Nav. Last year at one of the Command Day forums, the MC-130 guys told us to be an H-model Nav, you MUST have prior 130 experience. I could have sworn he said 1000 hrs but I could be wrong. Either way, no H-model out of Randolph. P's and W's are fair game though. I wish those guys the best if that is what they want. I graduated from UNT in May and from what I understand, Kirtland is so backed up that people are looking at almost a year before they start the MC FTU.

Yeah Kirtland is backed up. But so is Little Rock and Tinker and, and, and.

I finished LR, had two months casual and then started Kirtland. The issue is more that it might take longer to graduate from the flight line than initially advertised. That is not a good reason to look past an MDS.

If you really want to be a T2 guy, then all the power to you guys - go be good in slicks. But realize that the future of AFSOC fixed wing lift is not necessarily the T2, nor the Shadow or the Whiskey. We are all gonna end up in the MC-130J Shadow II. Get used to the idea of Cannon fella's.

[Carpetbagger]

The MC-130H is the only MC that has an EWO.

The MC-130E, original Talon, before there was a sequel, also has an EWO, and 2 NAVs. They all belong to AFRC (a great deal), and yes, they are definitely hiring! See ad under "711 SOS, Duke Field."

Edited September 7, 2008 by Carpetbagger

[Guest blackstang]

Hey,

I've been selected as a CSO (Nav) through Officer Training School.

I've thoroughly read all related info, new and old, on the forums and still have some questions and need some clarifications.

What is my path geographically?

-- I believe it is OTS Maxwell - IFS at Pueblo - Ground School at Randolph - CSO Training at Pensacola

What is IFS like for CSOs? Do we pilot the aircraft? Is training the same as it is for pilots?

I have seen that everyone has to go to IFS, regardless of flying experience, is this correct?

-- I have a Commercial Cert and Multi/Instrument Ratings.

How does one select their path as a CSO? When would I select my track and aircraft and what process allows me to choose?

More Specifically, I would like to be a WSO on an F-15E, how do I accomplish this from where I am now?

Less seriously, what are the standards for pilot selection?

<img src="https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/salut.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" " border="0" alt="salut.gif" />

Edited July 12, 2009 by moostang

[Hammer]

I was at IFS almost 2 years ago and everyone had the same program. Everyone has to go regardless of previous experience (a pain I know but it was worth it, keep a good attitude) There were a couple Nav guys in my class and we all had the same syllabus (meaning everyone went up for thier 20ish hours and did stalls/falls and ELPs). It was basically a PPL checkride. I've heard the syllabus has changed since I was there, but I'm not too sure how. Hope that helps a bit.

[BQZip01]

Hey,

I've been selected as a CSO (Nav) through Officer Training School.

I've thoroughly read all related info, new and old, on the forums and still have some questions and need some clarifications.

Welcome to the clan and congratulations!

What is my path geographically?

-- I believe it is OTS Maxwell - IFS at Pueblo - Ground School at Randolph - CSO Training at Pensacola

You might also be sent to another assignment for "casual" duty where you basically handle paperwork, but get involved in a flying squadron. IFS at Pueblo is now a given. With the transition to everything to P-cola, I'm not so sure about the Randolph->P-cola track, but I'm 9 months out of that school, so you could easily be correct.

What is IFS like for CSOs? Do we pilot the aircraft? Is training the same as it is for pilots?

From what I understand (I was one of the first and last to go through IFT and one of the few that did it twice...) the training is identical to the pilots. Search through the threads a little more and you'll find some info on it.

I have seen that everyone has to go to IFS, regardless of flying experience, is this correct?

-- I have a Commercial Cert and Multi/Instrument Ratings.

Standardization of training, so, yep

How does one select their path as a CSO? When would I select my track and aircraft and what process allows me to choose?

More Specifically, I would like to be a WSO on an F-15E, how do I accomplish this from where I am now?

When you get to Pensacola, do your best. It really is that simple. No it won't guarantee you an F-15E, but it will give you the best shot at it. As a side note, you may want to prepare yourself a little for the FACT (Fighter Aircrew Conditioning Test), a requirement for the F-15E. It isn't as easy for some people, so starting now is probably a good idea.

Less seriously, what are the standards for pilot selection?

-- The recruiter, interviewer, and I though that I was really competitive. One of the other Nav selects had an amazing application as well. We both had good GPAs, 99 percentile PCSM, 90+ percentile AFOQT scores, and more flight time than really needed. Only 67 rated selects out of 798 applicants.

There is nothing wrong with looking out for number one, just don't step in number two while doing it. You sound competitive for a pilot slot, but the biggest thing when you do apply for a pilot slot is going to be your commander's ranking, so do the best at the job you currently have. Show that you are "worthy". Be a good Nav. They won't hold you back from UPT if you are a good officer and good at what you do. PM me if you have any questions on this one (I've been at UPT, UNT, and got picked up for them from active duty as a support officer).

[JuanDu007]

Just thought I'd give some updated information. I left IFS last Nov. and currently in the middle of Nav school.

First off congrats on getting selected.

What is my path geographically? -OTS -> IFS -> Pensacola; You won't be coming down here to Randolph.

What is IFS like for CSOs? Do we pilot the aircraft? Is training the same as it is for pilots? -I was in one of the last few classes that had everybody doing the pilot syllabus. Now there is a syllabus for Pilots and Navs. It's only 4 weeks compared to 6. Some of my classmates now did the Nav syllabus and I don't think they did too much flying. More navigating than anything. You definately don't do any soloing anymore but it looks like you'll fly through there with your experience.

As far as how to get WSO...follow BQZip01's advice. Do your best and if you end up #1 you'll get your choice as long as timing works out for you. Good luck.

[wings]

More Specifically, I would like to be a WSO on an F-15E, how do I accomplish this from where I am now?

If you want to be a WSO, kick ass at OTS. You can apply when there and you will meet a board with an O-6 and a couple O-5s and they pick who gets to be a WSO. When I was there I think we had two dudes get picked up out of like 10. Good luck!

[HU&W]

Good to know, one less move.

This is why I asked about IFS, I get info saying it's different and the same. If it's shorter, that will make up for the lack of flight time.

I've been waiting for a chance at this for almost 10 years now, planning my life around it, so I will not take this lightly. How do you get recommended or qualified for WSO training though?

Here's the current gouge on IFS for CSO. You will go. There are CSO candidates that attend who are airline pilots (ANG) in their day jobs. You will mirror the pilots on academics and the first few flights. After that, you will specialize in assisting an instructor pilot with flying the aircraft to specific locations at specific times, much like you would for a time sensitive airdrop, munitions drop, or whatever. Expect 3.5 weeks altogether for the CSO program.

[JuanDu007]

Blackstang,

There aren't anymore WSO boards at OTS. If you want to become a WSO then you'll have to kickass at CSO in Pensacola. When it comes time to filling out your dreamsheet at the end of CSO training, put F-15E #1, be at the top or near the top, and pray there is one in your drop.

[Guest blackstang]

Here's the current gouge on IFS for CSO. You will go. There are CSO candidates that attend who are airline pilots (ANG) in their day jobs. You will mirror the pilots on academics and the first few flights. After that, you will specialize in assisting an instructor pilot with flying the aircraft to specific locations at specific times, much like you would for a time sensitive airdrop, munitions drop, or whatever. Expect 3.5 weeks altogether for the CSO program.

Doesn't sound too bad, hopefullly I won't have to wait too long between OTS and IFS and between IFS and CSO Training.

Blackstang,

There aren't anymore WSO boards at OTS. If you want to become a WSO then you'll have to kickass at CSO in Pensacola. When it comes time to filling out your dreamsheet at the end of CSO training, put F-15E #1, be at the top or near the top, and pray there is one in your drop.

When do you choose, halfway? Do you select Position and Aircraft at the same time? Are there EWO positions for the F-15Eas well?

[magnetfreezer]

Doesn't sound too bad, hopefullly I won't have to wait too long between OTS and IFS and between IFS and CSO Training.

When do you choose, halfway? Do you select Position and Aircraft at the same time? Are there EWO positions for the F-15Eas well?

As it stands now in the new CSO syllabus everyone will go through the exact same nav/EW training and then select their platform at the end. Ideally the CSOs would be able to handle either nav or EWO duties at the same time (like the B-1 and F-15 dudes do now). Right now, Pensacola does produce F-15 EWOs and WSOs, but the EWOs are just WSOs who volunteered to go to EWO school while on casual waiting to PCS to the B-course. In the new program all F-15E guys will be EWO trained (since everyone will be); there won't be a separate EWO position since there's usually only room for 1 WSO in the jet.

[FlyingBull]

magnetfreezer, so then does that mean there won't be a "track select" type of thing for WSO's and you'll find out if you are going to be a WSO based on the platform on assignment night?

[magnetfreezer]

magnetfreezer, so then does that mean there won't be a "track select" type of thing for WSO's and you'll find out if you are going to be a WSO based on the platform on assignment night?

Yep, that is how the syllabus stands now. The official goal of the new training seems to be to produce someone that would be equally adept at being a F-15E WSO as a C-130 nav. I'll leave the details of how that will work up to the F-15E and C-130 guys.

[drewpey]

the idea on paper is to produce one product from CSO school. We will see how that goes though...good in theory, but in the end probably not going to work out as well as they hope. Enjoy the guinea pig treatment...