Combat Systems Officer (CSO) info; Nav, EWO, WSO

[08Dawg]

Seems to me this whole CSO thing is going to produce a jack of all trades, master of none type aviator. I'd much rather have my EWO be an actual EWO, instead of a dude who got the same stuff I did and is just sitting at a different station. Have a specialty isn't a bad thing, IMHO.

[Guest blackstang]

As it stands now in the new CSO syllabus everyone will go through the exact same nav/EW training and then select their platform at the end. Ideally the CSOs would be able to handle either nav or EWO duties at the same time (like the B-1 and F-15 dudes do now). Right now, Pensacola does produce F-15 EWOs and WSOs, but the EWOs are just WSOs who volunteered to go to EWO school while on casual waiting to PCS to the B-course. In the new program all F-15E guys will be EWO trained (since everyone will be); there won't be a separate EWO position since there's usually only room for 1 WSO in the jet.

Ok, so I just need to be the best CSO possible during NAV training to increase my chances... Does seem like we should be more specialized, but meeting the needs of the Air Force seems like the theme so far.

Seems to me this whole CSO thing is going to produce a jack of all trades, master of none type aviator. I'd much rather have my EWO be an actual EWO, instead of a dude who got the same stuff I did and is just sitting at a different station. Have a specialty isn't a bad thing, IMHO.

The tighter the concentration on one subject, the less capable trainees are of filling a position that's open. It makes it easier for them to fill jobs if everyone is qualified. Less of a numbers game with the nav school washout percentage.

I wish that they would do this with the whole rated program, starting with IFS. If trainees selected as pilots drop, the next person in their ranking fills the spot. They would always have enough pilots after IFS.

[nsplayr]

Seems to me this whole CSO thing is going to produce a jack of all trades, master of none type aviator. I'd much rather have my EWO be an actual EWO, instead of a dude who got the same stuff I did and is just sitting at a different station. Have a specialty isn't a bad thing, IMHO.

Honestly it's not gonna be any different than UPT. When you have -38 dudes flying heavies or tone guys flying UAVs, their specific training isn't nearly as useful as the skills learned having survived the process of flying training. The stuff I learned in nav school is about 10% applicable to my current job, but it's no big deal because that's what the FTU is for. The current track select in nav school only has studs in specialized training for like 4 weeks, hardly enough to make me trust one guy over another as an EW expert just because his name tag is red and black. I think it's gonna help with the numbers game of filling nav/ewo/wso/cso seats without a noticeable loss of student capability because as it stands you don't know sh*t until you're mission qual and have a deployment or two under your belt anyways.

[FlyingBull]

I wish that they would do this with the whole rated program, starting with IFS. If trainees selected as pilots drop, the next person in their ranking fills the spot. They would always have enough pilots after IFS.

How do you decide who the "next" person is? Rack and stack at IFS? There will be brand new officers from three different commissioning sources, as well as officers picked up on active duty. Is there really a way to decide who the "next" guy/gal is during IFS?

[BQZip01]

I wish that they would do this with the whole rated program, starting with IFS. If trainees selected as pilots drop, the next person in their ranking fills the spot. They would always have enough pilots after IFS.

The drop/washout rate is supposed to be built into the whole program. They expect a certain percentage to drop out/wash out; while it isn't desirable, it is an understood necessity.

[Guest blackstang]

How do you decide who the "next" person is? Rack and stack at IFS? There will be brand new officers from three different commissioning sources, as well as officers picked up on active duty. Is there really a way to decide who the "next" guy/gal is during IFS?

Candidates were ordered and the pilots were selected, then navigators, then ABMs. The number one nav would get the next spot, assuming everyone came from the same selection board. Just an idea...

The drop/washout rate is supposed to be built into the whole program. They expect a certain percentage to drop out/wash out; while it isn't desirable, it is an understood necessity.

They can't calculate it exactly, it just seems like the selection board chose the wrong people if there are high percentages of IFS drop outs. Maybe they should value flight experience more in their selection.

[BQZip01]

Candidates were ordered and the pilots were selected, then navigators, then ABMs. The number one nav would get the next spot, assuming everyone came from the same selection board. Just an idea...

There are alternates that are selected, but once the fiscal year begins, they have to stick with what is on the books. You can't allocate 10 spots, washout 2, and expect 2 more to be spun up to the same level as the other 8 within the same fiscal year.

You also assume that all are qualified for all positions (they aren't), that they want those jobs (not everyone does), that their commanders will release them, and that they don't impact percentages in one particular commissioning source. Then there's the folks who are picked up on active duty...

They can't calculate it exactly, it just seems like the selection board chose the wrong people if there are high percentages of IFS drop outs.

That's a pretty calloused way to look at it and I encourage you to realize that some people fly for a long time and, once they get into military flight training, realize they don't like it. Why would you force someone who doesn't want to be there to fly?

There are plenty of reasons for drop outs: doesn't enjoy it, medical reasons, wash out, etc.

Almost everyone is there because they earned it: whether it was butt kissing or hard work, it is generally deserved.

Maybe they should value flight experience more in their selection.

The PCSM score weighs heavily in the picks already.

[Guest blackstang]

There are alternates that are selected, but once the fiscal year begins, they have to stick with what is on the books. You can't allocate 10 spots, washout 2, and expect 2 more to be spun up to the same level as the other 8 within the same fiscal year.

You also assume that all are qualified for all positions (they aren't), that they want those jobs (not everyone does), that their commanders will release them, and that they don't impact percentages in one particular commissioning source. Then there's the folks who are picked up on active duty...

That's a pretty calloused way to look at it and I encourage you to realize that some people fly for a long time and, once they get into military flight training, realize they don't like it. Why would you force someone who doesn't want to be there to fly?

There are plenty of reasons for drop outs: doesn't enjoy it, medical reasons, wash out, etc.

Almost everyone is there because they earned it: whether it was butt kissing or hard work, it is generally deserved.

The PCSM score weighs heavily in the picks already.

I'm talking about the initial stages of Training. If they would have chosen 12 people if there were more seats open, but there were only 10 seats, and two drop out of OTS, why not bump those two people up to their top choice if they want it? I'm not saying that everyone is qualified to be trained as a military pilot, just that many of those who were not selected are. The problem is that there isn't enough demand. Also, many of those who would be qualified chose Navigator, so why not give them a chance? Give some ABMs a chance to be Navs if they want it, and some people who weren't selected for rated a chance. Only if the limitation is the demand for rated officers, which I believe it currently is.

A selection board has some number of selections they can make, so they choose the best applications. If there were 100 pilot selects allowed, they would probably fill them all. If there are 6 pilot selects allowed, they will fill them all. Why does the #7 select never get a chance at one board, but the #100 select does. It seems like the most qualified person is the next in line if you can still get them, especially with a smaller selection board. The mission is to fill the needs of the Air Force, which would be to have as many jobs filled as possible. Since the training is more difficult for rated careers than most non-rated ones, they are harder to fill. This would reduce the number of people attempting the more difficult training, meaning fewer would drop, saving the AF time and money in filling the position.

I suppose I will see why people drop when I get there, but I wouldn't make a 6-10 year commitment unless I was really sure that I wanted it. I wouldn't force them to continue, I would replace them. People will stay in the Air Force longer if they get to do the job they really want, many will end up trying to get that position down the road anyway.

Edited June 15, 2009 by blackstang

[drewpey]

If you are an AD Nav and go for UPT and drop, do you just go back?

I'm sure it's possible, but when you fail out of flying training, I've been told you face a FEB (flight eval board) and will have to convince a panel of people why they should help you out. Would depend on your circumstances, what people thought of you, etc.

[BQZip01]

I wonder if that's why it was so difficult to get a pilot slot as a civilian, the AD guys had an advantage.

I love flying, which is why I'm going to work my a55 off to get an F-15E spot. That would be better than flying some AF aircraft from my perspective.

If you are an AD Nav and go for UPT and drop, do you just go back?

I suppose, but that's only because there aren't as many slots allocated to OTS, so percentage-wise they are at a disadvantage.

Good luck on the F-15E, but don't make your desires unreasonable. There are plenty of good airframes out there that aren't the F-15E, so keep your options open and learn about other aircraft too. You may be one of the best to ever graduate from CSO school, but a better guy might still beat you out. I'd recommend getting a "top five" list (with F-15Es being at the top, of course) to open your options. Don't burn your bridges either.

As for AD Navs that don't make it through UPT, it depends on the reason. I didn't make it through UPT and I was sent to Nav School. That was only by the commander's recommendation and because I had the grades in academics. If I didn't have either one, I'd likely not be on this board...

[Guest blackstang]

If everyone thought this way the AF wouldn't have any pilots. If that is the case then you don't really want to be a pilot that bad.

Que?

An F-15 CSO can get stick time and fly in one of the coolest aircraft IMO. A predator pilot doesn't get any flight time, the job may be better than most, but I would rather fly in an F-15, piloting sometimes. With autopilot and terrain following, the pilot doesn't have to touch the controls for many portions of the flight.

If I like my job enough, I won't try to switch to pilot, as of now, it is my goal.

BQ makes a good point, do not limit your options. I wish that this combined Nav training (all airframes) was available when I went through.

Navs who attend UPT will go through an FEB if washed out, and generally will be sent back to their old airframe as a nav, unless it is found to be a medical disqualifier, or some higher-up is just holy pissed at the student.

I'm still researching, didn't do much on navs befor the board results came out.

[nsplayr]

3 (or 4 or whatever...) on not limiting your options to what sounds bad ass (i.e. your top 3 all make bad guys go boom). All the platforms have their ups and downs and you might be surprised what piques your interest. They'll be plenty of briefs at nav school on the different platforms available and the INs there have flown just about everything that you can drop right now. It's great to have an idea of what you want but that choice is a long way off and just go in with an open mind. Good luck!

[nsplayr]

I think I read that there are 3-4 different nav positions on that aircraft. Which station would you be at, or are they interchangeable?

I'm not a buff guy, but there are two nav seats (nav and radar nav) downstairs and an EWO seat upstairs. From what I understand the idea is to train to a point where a guy can move interchangeable between all three seats sometime in the mid-term future. Radar nav is sort of an upgrade from regular nav as well. Buff guys feel free to correct as necessary.

In terms of UAVs, my squadron CC briefed all the CSOs down here that UAVs were a follow-on possibility. The rules on whether you need a instrument rating or what training you'd have to do are very dynamic so I'm not up on the latest gouge, but either way it's possible if that's something you want to explore after your first tour.

[ExBoneOSO]

Nsplayer's correct..the typical career progression for a Buff Nav is Nav, Instructor Nav, Radar Nav, Instructor RN..then again, that was back "in the dark ages" when I flew the Buff in the mid 80s. I'd imagine that hasn't changed yet, with the E-dub being a separate path (EW, IEW). Who knows what will happen when the CSO concept becomes normal ops. I left the B-1 just as SAC went to ACC, so I missed out on the OSO/DSO conversion to WSO.

Question for the B-1 bros - do you start out in the DSO seat when you go through IQC, and then "upgrade" to the OSO seat, or are you dual-qualed for both seats?

[08Dawg]

All the EW instructors here keep bending our ear with that interchangeable seat stuff, but the instructors navs keep saying no, that's just to get you to track EW. You'd have too many currencies to keep up with to make it a realistic possibility. I've also heard recently the FTU has begun to dual qualify navs right out of the schoolhouse so you have the capability to sit in either seat downstairs. How this will actually play out I'm not sure, but that's what I've been told.

[BQZip01]

All the EW instructors here keep bending our ear with that interchangeable seat stuff, but the instructors navs keep saying no, that's just to get you to track EW. You'd have too many currencies to keep up with to make it a realistic possibility. I've also heard recently the FTU has begun to dual qualify navs right out of the schoolhouse so you have the capability to sit in either seat downstairs. How this will actually play out I'm not sure, but that's what I've been told.

09-01 (graduating 17 July) will be the first class to include dual qual Nav/Radar Navs

Rumor is that this idea will be dropped in the near future but we'll see what pans out.

[pbar]

B-1 WSOs are dual-qualified right out of the schoolhouse. However, the DSO training is not that extensive and most guys tend to focus on the OSO seat especially with all of the stuff lately. Not much use for a full-up DSO over Afghanistan right now and the DSO ends up mostly acting as a secondary OSO. I always told my students that if they wanted to stand out from the crowd to become a good DSO as there aren't many good DSOs in the Bone community. Worked for me...

PBAR

[ExBoneOSO]

B-1 WSOs are dual-qualified right out of the schoolhouse. However, the DSO training is not that extensive and most guys tend to focus on the OSO seat especially with all of the stuff lately. Not much use for a full-up DSO over Afghanistan right now and the DSO ends up mostly acting as a secondary OSO. I always told my students that if they wanted to stand out from the crowd to become a good DSO as there aren't many good DSOs in the Bone community. Worked for me...

PBAR

Thanks, pbar - Yeah, I'd imagine that with the lack of threats that the DSO would be pretty much backing the O up with all the weapon delivery stuff. Not like the old days of Sync-Sync-SRAM at LaJunta! (I know, dating myself again). The really sharp IDSOs were put through a mini OSO course to become kind of dual qualed - just so they could instruct the D and get some bomb runs done for currency's sake, but they weren't held to the same standards as the O's were.

[Dupe]

Here's how to get ahead as a WSO/NAV/EWO/CSO/etc:

1. Kick ass at each step along the way. OTS may be insanely gay and in no way relevant to combat. If your value as a future officer is judged by writing staff summary sheets or memos, be the best damn staff summary/memo writer you can be. Work your ass off in OTS and become DG. Being a DG from your commissioning source really does mean alot when it comes to selection boards for things later on in life like WIC, UPT, or special duty.

2. Study your balls off in flight school. During flight school, you need to spend your time either studying or working out at the gym. Pensacola has lots of distractions, but don't get too distracted. I'm not sure how the program will change, but it was very adult when I went through. There was no Air Force-style stand-up. If you weren't on the schedule, you weren't expected to be at work. Some guys took that to mean beach. Those guys didn't do as well as the dudes who worked a 12 hour day regardless if they were in the sim, flying, or studying at home. Put a copy of the dash one (or NATOPS) and the checklist in the crapper. Review one system or EP each time you take a duke. Be DG in flight school and hope there's an airframe of your desire in the drop. Sometimes getting the platform or assignment you want simply isn't in the cards. Don't worry about that....worry about kicking ass in the B-course. All the platforms do some cool shit.

3. Keep up the focus as you enter the B-course. Regardless of which specific aircraft you get selected for, it will have a formal training program associated with it. Sometimes, the wait for these programs combined with the TDY-train that can come in between P-cola and the B-course can cause you to lose your study-game when you start the B-course. The B-course is the first time you establish your reputation in your community. Work your balls off just like you did in flight school. Unlike the Navy, it is expected that you be at work all day every day. You need to spend your day flying, studying in the vault, or working out. Make a good reputation for yourself. I promise that a guy who has douche-bag reputation will have that reputation arrive at his gaining unit before he will.

4. Drink with old dudes. There is no syllabus event in UNT or the B-course for drinking with the old-hats at the bar or the club. For pretty much any platform you go to, there will be old dudes who have gone around the block more than a few times in your aircraft. Their lessons learned are absolute gold for you. You can read about the characteristcs and flight profile of the SA-6 enough times in 3-1 such that you can spit out the paragraph verbatim....but the knowledge of what the ######er actually looks like when it gets shot at you may be the most important damn thing you learn.

5. Once you are mission qualified, become a subject matter expert in something. Your knowledge of your weapons system will be the greatest the day you finish with the mission qualification program in your first operational unit. After that, you'll start to have a side job in your squadron like working in Stan/Eval, Weapons, Scheduling, or Training. Aside from being the Snacko, the best possible jobs are ones that force you to continue to study in the course of your side-job like Weapons or Stan / Eval. Every combat aircraft now flying is so complicated that no one person is a full expert on every subject or system. Pick a system or subject early on and be the squadron's expert on that subject. If I were a young Bone dude, I'd start looking for anything and everything on Laser JDAM and legacy LGBs now that the B-1 is sniper-capable...

6. Let your leaders know what you want. If UPT / WIC / flying until you die is your true goal, tell your flight commander and DO. Your quiet whisper of "I want to do X in five years" may lead to a TDY or sortie that is very specific to what you wish to do in the future. Your leadership, if they're good, will bend over backwards to help you...but they can't do it if they don't know what you want.

7. Do your homework. Know when the selection boards for your desired program occur and what the application process consists of. Some things, like UPT and WIC, have a stratification at the wing level before your package moves on to the respective board. Other things, like selections for Med school, have you mail your package straight to the board with no wing commander input. Know how the gears turn for your deisred program. As you get to a year out or so from the program you want to apply for, buy the wing exec a beer and ask him how the process for X really works.

8. Be ready for change. The overall structure, cascading down to the CSO needs of the Air Force are rapidly changing. There may be more NSA/MC-12/UAV/other platforms in the drops in the comming years than traditional bomb-dropping WSO-run aircraft. Be ready, be flexible, and be open to change.

Edited: I added #8 and fixed some minor grammer now that the hangover has subsided somewhat.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Dupe

[Nineline]

Nsplayer's correct..the typical career progression for a Buff Nav is Nav, Instructor Nav, Radar Nav, Instructor RN..then again, that was back "in the dark ages" when I flew the Buff in the mid 80s. I'd imagine that hasn't changed yet, with the E-dub being a separate path (EW, IEW).

Believe it or not, some things have changed since the mid 80s... even in the Buff! Current progression eliminates the Instructor Nav upgrade; you go straight from Nav to Radar followed by IR. However, the E-dub path still remains the same.

For most navs straight out of UNT, you can expect to make IR shortly after you pin on Capt.

-9-

[pbar]

Thanks for the ideas. It seems like the best way to get ahead is to take on extra duties that are related to your position once at your squadron. Other than that, pushing yourself throughout training will keep you ahead of your peers and get you into the top of your classes.

Shack. Being the squadron EWO as a captain basically got me an IDE slot (to my huge surprise!) and hence my promotion to O-5. On a related note, it seems to me the successful guys I know always tried to leave whatever job/unit/office they were in a better place than they found it, and always tried to operate on the principle of making all of the rest of the squadron bubbas' lives easier by improving stuff, never walking by a problem, etc. Example of this might be like somebody said, become the squadron expert on a system, especially a new one, and do the homework/legwork for the rest of the bros so they can become experts without having to dig all of the nuggets out of the TOs. Worked for me but I've seen many a promotion-focused careerist fall flat on his/her face come promotion time.

[Dupe]

I know this is an old post, but I was re-reading...

Are you saying that AFOQT scores are still a factor for UPT selection once you are an AD officer?

If you're a WSO, the best way to get to be a pilot is to kick ass as a WSO. A former SQ/CC of mine sat on the active duty UPT board one year, and briefed the squadron on the big-picture way that the board looked at dudes. Here's my memory from a briefing that happened two years ago:

1. Each board member looks at your record for no longer than 45 seconds.

2. PCSM matters some, but being DG from UNT or the B-course, being a quarterly/yearly top-gun or award-winner, and having a high stratification from your OG matters much more. In the few times I've seen the process happen, the #1 and #2 WSO applying for UPT from each F-15E got picked up. #3 was a maybe. The board is looking for continuing success....if you did well at P-cola then have been lazy since, you can expect to not get picked up. However, if you were an average guy comming out of the B-course and you busted your tail to earn some quarterly awards and the #1 OG ranking for the board, you stand a good shot of making the cut.

3. WSOs and Navs tend to have a leg up on the board simply because there's more confidence in their overall SA and ability to complete UPT.

Here's my random thoughts:

-Changing the number of active duty members selected for UPT is the AF's fastest way to alter the size of pilot production. Some years are great...others are droughts. As with everything else in the AF, luck and timing are key.

-Be carefull what you wish for. As a former-WSO pilot, you can expect a career progression much like a FAIP. You'll be thrown into 2-FLUG not long after you finish MQ along with being inserted directly into a shop-chief job. You'll be a flight commander while busting your balls to complete 4-FLUG. You'll be a 2-ship while your PRF is being written as compared to your Instructor-qualed peers. Bottom line: you'll be given the responsibilities out-side the jet commensurate with the mid to senior level captain that you'll be but you'll still need to learn to fly the jet like the Lts -be prepaired for the fire-storm that awaits you post B-course (well..the second B-course for you).

-Tell your flight commander and DO your dreams early-on and do your homework. A while ago, it seemed there was some stigma associated with WSOs who wanted to leave the rear 'pit to become pilots. I think that environment has ended and all the flight commanders and DOs that I have seen have been supportive of the desires of their people. I watched one guy almost not get a UPT slot because he didn't do his homework and he rushed his application. As a result, the OG simply tacked his name to the bottom of the list and the dude became an alternate. Luckily, someone else fell out and he got bumped up.

The ultimate bottome line: nobody really gives a flying ###### about your AFOQT scores anymore (unless they are so heinously bad that the board may think you're retarded). If you want to be a pilot and you are a WSO, then get there by being the best WSO you can be.

[Guest moostang]

What's the (11 months?) at Pensacola look like right now?

What aircraft, are there still tracks or has it all been combined as stated earlier?

Is there normally a long wait between OTS, IFS and UNT?

CSO students at Randolph are trained in one of two broad tracks of training. Those completing the Advanced CSO -- Navigation track fly in the T-43A and move to follow-on assignments in the B-52 Stratofortress, KC/RC-135 Stratotanker, E-3 Sentry (AWACS), E-8C Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JSTARS) and all C-130 variants. Students completing the Advanced CSO -- Electronic Warfare track complete training in the T-43A and track to follow-on assignments in the B-52, RC-135 and EC/MC/AC-130.

CSO students at NAS Pensacola complete primary and intermediate training in the T-6A and T-1 aircraft. These students then enter one of two tracks. Students in the strike track will serve as weapon systems officers or WSOs, in the B-1B Lancer. WSOs assigned to the B-1B attend Electronic Warfare Upgrade training at Randolph. Students in the strike/fighter track receive follow-on assignments to the F-15E Strike Eagle as WSOs and attend additional training in the Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals course.

In early 2010, all Air Force CSO training is programmed to move to NAS Pensacola.

Edited June 30, 2009 by moostang

[BQZip01]

What's the (11 months?) at Pensacola look like right now?

What aircraft, are there still tracks or has it all been combined as stated earlier?

Is there normally a long wait between OTS, IFS and UNT?

P-cola? I'm not sure they have a complete idea of the program, but I can't imagine it being TOO different, though of course the airframes are.

Basically, you'll go through physiology and learn just how much the human body isn't supposed to be up high in the air

Then you'll go through academics and focus on the basics of navigation, your tools, your charts, and how to use them.

Next you'll get more advanced systems and how to use those

I would assume at some point after that, you'll do low level, work EWO stuff, possibly formation work, and the application of radar.

From what I understand, everyone has the same chance at assignment night to get every possible airframe. We'll see how that works out.

There is usually less of a wait after OTS than ROTC and USAFA. Main reason is that they commission year-round while ROTC and USAFA primarily graduate everyone in May-ish. If you finish OTS around that time, expect a bit of a wait simply due to volume. If you graduate August or later, expect less of a wait.

[magnetfreezer]

P-cola? I'm not sure they have a complete idea of the program, but I can't imagine it being TOO different, though of course the airframes are.

Basically, you'll go through physiology and learn just how much the human body isn't supposed to be up high in the air

Then you'll go through academics and focus on the basics of navigation, your tools, your charts, and how to use them.

Next you'll get more advanced systems and how to use those

I would assume at some point after that, you'll do low level, work EWO stuff, possibly formation work, and the application of radar.

From what I understand, everyone has the same chance at assignment night to get every possible airframe. We'll see how that works out.

There is usually less of a wait after OTS than ROTC and USAFA. Main reason is that they commission year-round while ROTC and USAFA primarily graduate everyone in May-ish. If you finish OTS around that time, expect a bit of a wait simply due to volume. If you graduate August or later, expect less of a wait.

Phys/survival/various ground school stuff

~25 hours in the T-6 -> contacts, instruments and low level/forms

~75 hours in the T-1 -> LL/A-G radar/A-A/EWO (with a bunch of sims as well)