Guest weatherman Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 First of all, thanks a $#!^ton to you guys for all the knowledge. It's easy to find pilot stuff but this has been the most informative NAV discussion I've come across on the boards. I 2nd the questions below and I'd appreciate as much detail on the different phases as possible. There's extensive detail on what happens in each of the 3 UPT phases but I'm clueless on the CSO school phases. I've been searching for a UNT blog but keep striking out, got any sources? Also what's the B course? What's the (11 months?) at Pensacola look like right now? What aircraft, are there still tracks or has it all been combined as stated earlier? Is there normally a long wait between OTS, IFS and UNT?
magnetfreezer Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 First of all, thanks a $#!^ton to you guys for all the knowledge. It's easy to find pilot stuff but this has been the most informative NAV discussion I've come across on the boards. I 2nd the questions below and I'd appreciate as much detail on the different phases as possible. There's extensive detail on what happens in each of the 3 UPT phases but I'm clueless on the CSO school phases. I've been searching for a UNT blog but keep striking out, got any sources? Also what's the B course? B course=FTU=RTU=initial training on your real-world airframe. As of now everyone will go through the exact same training at Pcola and select at/near the end of the 11 months what their final airframe will be. There are still "tracks" right now with heavies going to Randolph and tracking nav/EWO and B-1/F-15E tracks splitting off at VT-86, but there shouldn't be any more new people coming in to the Navy program at Pcola. The CSO transition is still very much in flex so can't say much about final syllabus details or the wait to start. If I told you the times would most likely change by the time you went through anyway. I wouldn't worry too much either way - if you are a good dude, work hard, and have what it takes you will make it through; if you don't, you won't. Prior prep is OK, but you'll be alright focusing on each phase as it comes (sts); no need to start memorizing T-1 boldface before you even start IFS.
08Dawg Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 I've started thinking about MWS options post P-Cola. Of course the initial thought was 15E WSO which I still consider my top choice but knowing how the AF is, I think it's probably best to have something else in mind. Can anyone tell me some UNCLAS details of the MC-130 mission? Pros vs Cons? Any other recommendations for CSO as far as airframes are concerned? Sort of depends on what version of the MC you're talking about. There's a Talon, a Shadow and a Spear. They all do sorta the same thing, low level insertion of spec ops bubbas and chopper refueling, but I know there are some dudes on here who fly those so I'll leave the details to them, lest I fnck it up. As to airframes post P-Cola...depends on what you want to do. If you want to go Mach 2 and pulls Gs and shit, Strike Eagles would probably be a good deal. If you want to haul stuff, kick Army dudes out the back and go literally everywhere, you might go slicks. If you want to drop a shit-ton of ordnance and strike the fear of God into bad guys, you might consider B-52s. Just talk to your instructors when you get down there to get an idea what their life was like. And be sure to ask, just as you did in your question, about the pros AND the cons. And unless you're married, make the decision for you. Don't let anybody else, girlfriend, classmate, whoever, influence your decision. Make it for yourself.
nsplayr Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Yea, good advice from 08. IMHO either of the formerly WSO positions (F-15E & B-1) are pretty sweet b/c you go fast and kill people. Beyond that, it's really what you think you'd be in to. Lots of travel and working with army/hauling stuff = C-130. Bombardier = B-52. High-tech nerd with lots of cool toys and a gucci lifestyle = RC-135. All of these are caricatures of the real thing and if you don't talk to the instructors who've been there you're not helping yourself, but it never hurts to think about what you want to fly. And good on ya for considering 2nd, (and 3rd, and 4th...) choices. You never know if you'll be the #1 stud or struggle to get by. My recommendation is AFSOC but that's just me...
BQZip01 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I've started thinking about MWS options post P-Cola. Of course the initial thought was 15E WSO which I still consider my top choice but knowing how the AF is, I think it's probably best to have something else in mind. Can anyone tell me some UNCLAS details of the MC-130 mission? Pros vs Cons? Any other recommendations for CSO as far as airframes are concerned? MC-130 well, there's two basic variants: The Talon II and the W model. The W program is still in its infancy, but it is a new bird. It can do some of the things the Talon II can do, but not all...that said, there is talk of throwing a gun on the back and making it a smaller version of the AC-130 gunship. Lots of new stuff, lots of uncertainty. Talon II flies TF/TA at altitudes lower than 300 ft AGL. They fly down mountain valleys and do stuff behind enemy lines. To paraphrase a Talon driver: "We were somewhere around Afghanistan when OEF really kicked off. When we came back from our 1st mission to our camp (which we shared with the Army), we collapsed into our beds for some needed rest. "We were stationed with the 10th Mountain Division and some punk Captain runs his troops over by our tents during their morning PT...and then stops them outside our tents." "'Well, let's see if the lazy Air Force pukes want to do some PT!' He bellowed as they started calisthenics. 'One, two, three!' 'ONE!' "Our squadron commander got up from his bed, calmly walked over to the Captain and told him in a low voice: "'Son. I just got done flying 8 hours on NVGs through mountain valleys, tanked up 2 times in pitch black, landed on a deserted road in the middle of nowhere to drop of some Army folks, and repeated the process to get back here. And I may have to do that again tonight. Our crews need rest. "'Please. Take this crap elsewhere.'" ...and so they did. The MC-130s drop our largest conventional bomb, the MOAB (much as it pains a BUFF guy to admit it). In short the MC-130 mission is cool. It is also isn't for the faint of heart; they fly high-risk, high reward missions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_MC-1...Talon_II_losses Other aircraft to look into: RC-135S Cobra Ball U-28 (don't bother looking online for any mission info; you'll just have to trust people for this gig) AC-130H/U B-52 (it is my career field, so if you have any questions...) MC-12 B-1B still others you could get: KC-135 RC-135V Rivet Joint RC-135U Combat Sent OC-135 Open Skies WC-135 Constant Phoenix C-130 EC-130 F-15E E-3 Sentry (AWACS) Eventually you could get: VC-25 (Air Force One) Test School (they sometimes need navigators for test flights) Did I miss anything?
nsplayr Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 MC-130...well, there's two basic variants: The Talon II and the W model... And the Papas (MC-130P). Based at Eglin and specializing in helo refueling but still capable of the other MC-130 mission sets. To quote from globalsecurity.org: "The MC-130P (formerly the HC-130P/N) Combat Shadow flies clandestine or low visibility, low-level missions into politically sensitive or hostile territory to provide air refueling for special operations helicopters. The MC-130P primarily flies its single- or multi-ship missions at night to reduce detection and intercept by airborne threats. Secondary mission capabilities include airdrop of small special operations teams, small bundles, and zodiac and combat rubber raiding craft; as well as night-vision goggle takeoffs and landings, tactical airborne radar approaches and in-flight refueling as a receiver." Did I miss anything? HC-130s. Again from globalsecurity.org: "The HC-130 is an extended-range, combat rescue version of the C-130 transport aircraft. Capable of independent employment in the no-to-low threat environment. Its primary mission is to provide air refueling for rescue helicopters. The HC-130 can perform extended searches in a permissive environment and has the capability to airdrop pararescuemen and survival equipment to isolated survivors when a delay in the arrival of a recovery vehicle is anticipated. Flights to air refueling areas or drop zones are accomplished at tactical low altitude to avoid threats. NVG-assisted, low-altitude air refueling and other operations in a low-threat environment are performed by specially trained crews. The crew can perform airborne mission commander (AMC) duties in a no-to-low threat environment when threat conditions permit." I think if I had to fill out a dream sheet right now it would probably go... F-15E MC-130 B-1 U-28 All Others Good list so far. Keep an open mind and research, talk with your instructors, actually do well at nav school, etc. As a prior-enlisted and flyer I'm sure you'll do fine and should have some good stories to tell your LT classmates. Good luck man and feel free to PM with questions.
magnetfreezer Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Did I miss anything? JSTARS The EWO types can also do EA-6B tours (don't know the official prereqs, know of F-15E, B-1B and B-52 guys who have done it though)
BQZip01 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 And the Papas (MC-130P). Based at Eglin and specializing in helo refueling but still capable of the other MC-130 mission sets. To quote from globalsecurity.org: "The MC-130P (formerly the HC-130P/N) Combat Shadow flies clandestine or low visibility, low-level missions into politically sensitive or hostile territory to provide air refueling for special operations helicopters. The MC-130P primarily flies its single- or multi-ship missions at night to reduce detection and intercept by airborne threats. Secondary mission capabilities include airdrop of small special operations teams, small bundles, and zodiac and combat rubber raiding craft; as well as night-vision goggle takeoffs and landings, tactical airborne radar approaches and in-flight refueling as a receiver." I missed the Papas intentionally. It was my understanding that all the Papas are with the Reserves now (711th SOS) and there are no active duty Papas anymore. Globalsecurity.org is ok, but the info is usually quite dated. HC-130s... Yep, missed those folks. My bad, sorry. JSTARS Missed them too. The EWO types can also do EA-6B tours (don't know the official prereqs, know of F-15E, B-1B and B-52 guys who have done it though) EWOs and Navs will soon become the same career field (at least in theory; we'll see how it works out in practice), so any CSO could handle that job... ...except they aren't accepting any new personnel as the EA-6B program shuts down and is replaced by the EA-18 Growler. It has yet to be determined if they'll take any AF guys in the near future.
nsplayr Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) I missed the Papas intentionally. It was my understanding that all the Papas are with the Reserves now (711th SOS) and there are no active duty Papas anymore. See 9th SOS at Eglin. Part of 1st SOW and still flying active duty birds. Been there since 1988. Got a friend at nav school who has it first on her dream sheet. The 711th flies the Talon I out of Duke from what I've read. Edited July 8, 2009 by nsplayr
dkc0820 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I missed the Papas intentionally. It was my understanding that all the Papas are with the Reserves now (711th SOS) and there are no active duty Papas anymore. Globalsecurity.org is ok, but the info is usually quite dated. MC-130E Combat Talons belong to the 711th at Duke and are AFRC. The MC-130P is indeed active duty at Eglin, Mildenhall, Kadena, and Kirtland (training). There are also a few Shadows at Moffett Federal that belong to the Guard.
WEAPON Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Well that's a bummer. What about AC's? FCO doesn't seem like a bad gig, Cannon on the other hand.....Oh well, if I can endure damn near 6 years in the Forks, Cannon wouldn't be too bad. It is possible to get AC's out of UNT, Nav or EWO, U-boats or H's. You cannot get MC-130H's though. Sorry for not being specific earlier. I have heard of a UNT stud dopping an AC FCO slot. We had a guy in my sqdn get picked up for that. I hear it is really fun, but can be very difficult training. I know several folks that are looking to go FCO.
nsplayr Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 It is possible to get AC's out of UNT, Nav or EWO, U-boats or H's. You cannot get MC-130H's though. Sorry for not being specific earlier. I have heard of a UNT stud dopping an AC FCO slot. We had a guy in my sqdn get picked up for that. I hear it is really fun, but can be very difficult training. I know several folks that are looking to go FCO. Accurate on gunship info, all slots are dropping from nav school last I heard (Nav, EWO, FCO for both models). If you go EW you can get T2s right out of nav school...guy in my class did it. Also had one of the goofiest guys from my flight just Q1 his H-model FCO checkride so if he can do it anyone can. I mean honestly, they can teach a monkey to fly a plane with enough rides under his belt...
Jughead Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Other aircraft to look into: MC-12 No nav/EWO on the MC-12
Guest ibreon Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 is it possible to get a WSO slot from UNT at randolph? i'm headed that way in a week, and as of right now, i would really love a WSO slot. i still have a lot of research to do on the other airframes, but getting into an F-15 has been my dream for some time now.
drewpey Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 randolph drops heavies, pensacola drops the fast movers. If you are actually starting class in randolph, then you will need to start shifting your dreams accordingly. Your only hope is getting bumped to PCola due to Randolph being closed down.
BQZip01 Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 randolph drops heavies, pensacola drops the fast movers. If you are actually starting class in randolph, then you will need to start shifting your dreams accordingly. Your only hope is getting bumped to PCola due to Randolph being closed down. I was unaware that Randolph was still starting new classes. If that is the case, no, I'm sorry, but an F-15E back seat simply isn't in the cards for you. However, if you are simply heading there for your casual assignment, Pensacola might still be in the deck of cards for you. Can anyone confirm whether or not they are still having new classes at Randolph?
Guest WSO_hopeful Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I was unaware that Randolph was still starting new classes. If that is the case, no, I'm sorry, but an F-15E back seat simply isn't in the cards for you. However, if you are simply heading there for your casual assignment, Pensacola might still be in the deck of cards for you. Can anyone confirm whether or not they are still having new classes at Randolph? and this is why i'm asking: they are starting new classes at randolph and they aren't starting new classes at p'cola...at least not until the new combined school opens sometime next year. i would imagine that they would still give out a WSO slot or two while they build the new school. i've also heard of people who were told they had a WSO slot but were going to randolph. i've been asking around, but with everything in a constant state of flex, no one seems to have any solid answers.
nav-a-ho Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Last class at Randolph indocs in December. There will be no F-15/B-1 drops at Randolph.
nsplayr Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Saw an email today asking for CSO (i.e. Nav, EWO, or WSO) volunteers to become "UAS Pilots" (their wording). Had some TOS restrictions (> 2 years) but other than that you just had to be released from your functional. The training path seemed to be approx. 20 weeks at RND for Undergrad UAS School, then on to one of 3 bases for FTU, then you get the 18xx rating, I'm assuming new wings as well, and become a permanent UAS asset. Wonder how many takers they'll be getting?
Dubs Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 If it's still an option (which I'm gonna kind of doubt) like 3-4 years down the line I'll probably jump on it. But I'd rather rack up some "real" flight time in the mean time.
pbar Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 Interesting blurb from the Air Force Association daily report... Big change in policy for CSOs... "USAF wants combat systems officers—lieutenants through majors—to fly remotely piloted vehicles. Those airmen who qualify have until Nov. 20 to volunteer. Those who are selected will be notified in December and begin training in January. Once trained, they "will possess the 18X Air Force specialty code and become permanent [unmanned aircraft system] assets," said Lt. Col. Jeffrey Kwoka, UAS career field manager. The Air Force leadership announced the creation of the 18X specialty code in September. CSOs without a commercial instrument rating are eligible to apply, but those with such a rating have only until Dec. 31 to apply and be able to go directly to a formal training unit, bypassing the full UAS pilot training course, said Maj. Gregory Nita, chief of UAS and intelligence-surveillance-reconnaissance assignments, noting a policy change."
nsplayr Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 There was info on this in the UAV/UAS thread as well. Saw the official email...looks like something for now as their standing up the 18xx field; unsure how long it will last but then again the demand for UAV orbits is insatiable so I'll put my money on this being a standing offer. As long as they continue to drop UAS to pilots right out of UPT I don't see why they couldn't take navs who volunteer. I wonder what the mood in the squadron is gonna be with both pilots, navs, and 18xx'ers running around all sitting the same seat and flying the same missions...I foresee a hierarchy forming but maybe I'll be wrong...
Guest cody6766 Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 I dropped my name in the UAS bucket when they were running the non-rated beta test and I was a Space and Missile cadet. I got picked up for Nav before commissioning and want to hold onto the opportunity to spend some time up in the sky. I don't want to give up a flying slot for a video game, especially if I may be able to change later. I do like the idea of playing a real-time role in the combat mission and possibly blasting the shit out of those bastards trying to hurt our boys and girls on the ground, but I want to be in the air a while. Oh, I know nothing of the c-130 variants aside from what has been posted in this thread. Is there a good source for info on the different platforms and their missions? Also, a source for current deployment rates for the different airframes would be cool too. I'm not too concerned about it, just curious. My wife is a little worried about the extent of my time away from home though. She know it's going to happen, she just wants an idea of how much.
nsplayr Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Oh, I know nothing of the c-130 variants aside from what has been posted in this thread. Is there a good source for info on the different platforms and their missions? Also, a source for current deployment rates for the different airframes would be cool too. I'm not too concerned about it, just curious. My wife is a little worried about the extent of my time away from home though. She know it's going to happen, she just wants an idea of how much. This is the place man...what airframes do you specifically want to know about? Using the search function is golden but there are people who fly everything imaginable on the boards here if you can't find what you're looking for. Recommend you search for specific info on airframes (i.e. type in AC-130 or "gunship") and ask in the apporpriate thread if you have specific questions.
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