Combat Systems Officer (CSO) info; Nav, EWO, WSO

[SuperWSO]

AF considers it too expensive to pay radar techs/maintain a radar shop (air-to-air intercepts will be done using TCAS data in addition to the simulated A-G radar). In addition, the AF specified in the RFPs, etc that any modifications made to the T-1 would have to be removeable to return them to pilot training service within a specific timeframe. I'm guessing that all the work required to put a radar in the nose would violate that.

I understand the RFP process and the idea of making this as cheap as possible, but you could also look at this and ask if UPT students might not be able to benefit from access to a radar equipped trainer (ie why would you have to remove the capability before giving it back to a UPT base?). I'm not advocating some sort of BFM in T-1s nonsense, but if CSOs benefit from exposure to radar fundamentals, why not pilots?

[theSituation]

So I'm a CSO stud in the new program here at NAS Pensacola. To keep this simple, I am just so curious as to how effective this program and my training really is. A couple weeks ago we had a brief from the CC in which he stated that due to syllabus/equipment constraints we will only be 30% effective compared to the original plan, thus being only 30% of what the FTUs are expecting from us.

WTF??

Can anyone from the FTUs or current instructors shed some light on the grand scheme of things here? I know its my job to shut up and color most of the time, and I think I do a pretty decent job at it, however I'm a little bit concerned as to whats going to happen to me. As an example, we got a brief from the RJ guys yesterday who were here for the air show. A question was asked about if we track RJs what are we when we show up? Do we just get to choose whether we're gonna be an EWO or a Nav? Do they pick based on performance in school (which, I will remind you will only be 30% effective)?

I will say that I'm enjoying flying and learning so much. The T-6 is a sweet aircraft and I'm looking forward to what will come in our schooling.

I guess I'm just frustrated about the lack of planning here and it pisses me off that we are kept in the dark so much about what will happen to us and our careers.

Also, whats big blue expecting from us? What are drops gonna look like starting this April? I know plenty of guys cream their jeans at the prospect of a Mudhen, and I think a lot of the training is catered towards that track, but I know the vast majority of us will not go that direction.

Sorry for the rant.

[afthunderchief16]

So I'm a CSO stud in the new program here at NAS Pensacola. To keep this simple, I am just so curious as to how effective this program and my training really is. A couple weeks ago we had a brief from the CC in which he stated that due to syllabus/equipment constraints we will only be 30% effective compared to the original plan, thus being only 30% of what the FTUs are expecting from us.

WTF??

Can anyone from the FTUs or current instructors shed some light on the grand scheme of things here? I know its my job to shut up and color most of the time, and I think I do a pretty decent job at it, however I'm a little bit concerned as to whats going to happen to me. As an example, we got a brief from the RJ guys yesterday who were here for the air show. A question was asked about if we track RJs what are we when we show up? Do we just get to choose whether we're gonna be an EWO or a Nav? Do they pick based on performance in school (which, I will remind you will only be 30% effective)?

I will say that I'm enjoying flying and learning so much. The T-6 is a sweet aircraft and I'm looking forward to what will come in our schooling.

I guess I'm just frustrated about the lack of planning here and it pisses me off that we are kept in the dark so much about what will happen to us and our careers.

Also, whats big blue expecting from us? What are drops gonna look like starting this April? I know plenty of guys cream their jeans at the prospect of a Mudhen, and I think a lot of the training is catered towards that track, but I know the vast majority of us will not go that direction.

Sorry for the rant.

Thats a pretty good question. As far as the RJ goes, I don't think that we really have a plan for what to do with you when you get here. In the past few months, the idea of "true" CSO has all but been canned so you will not see a dude qualified to sit both seats. I know that there are a few dudes that are trying to put together the new training syllabus for you guys but there is nothing in stone at all because we just don't know what we are going to be getting.

I would honestly imagine that AFPC would dictate which seat you will be sitting on since they are the ones that determine the numbers and what requirements are being fulfilled. So long story short - I don't think that anyone has a damn idea. I'm sure that getting closer to assignment time they will have a better idea of what they are doing and your future community will as well.

[FlyingBull]

The lack of 'complete' training is in regards to the T-1M being so far behind schedule. After the FY11 classes they should be up to par on the training if I remember that briefing correctly. Though I get your frustration as I'm a stud here as well in a FY11 class. They definitely do seem to like keeping us in the dark as much as possible, and thats not a joke about our windowless academic building.

[theSituation]

I guess this is just one of those situations that will happen in a career that you just have to nut up and get through it. Overall, I understand that getting my wings out of here is a license to learn. I know that I'll get excellent training in whatever platform I end up on and I will be able to be a part of the fight and do my job well.

It really is just a matter of timing. If I had graduated a year later, this would be a totally different program for me. Being a test subject sucks, but someones got to do it.

FTU guys: Please keep us posted on the development of the training pipeline with the new guys coming out of here. I'm very curious to see how you see/use us in the future.

[nsplayr]

I guess this is just one of those situations that will happen in a career that you just have to nut up and get through it. Overall, I understand that getting my wings out of here is a license to learn. I know that I'll get excellent training in whatever platform I end up on and I will be able to be a part of the fight and do my job well.

It really is just a matter of timing. If I had graduated a year later, this would be a totally different program for me. Being a test subject sucks, but someones got to do it.

FTU guys: Please keep us posted on the development of the training pipeline with the new guys coming out of here. I'm very curious to see how you see/use us in the future.

Haha, yea, ask the guys who went through the Randolph program what their thoughts on the new program are. It sounds pretty freaking cool, flying T-6 formation, getting to use the new sims, etc. and meanwhile we were stuck on the mighty, and now retired, T-43 pretending to navigate since only one person could actually do that at a time.

Basically, you've gained a cooler, better program for some uncertainty as to exactly how it will go down and what career options are out there. Not better or worse one way or the other (vs. the old & somewhat outdated but more stable program). Anyways, keep your eyes and ears open b/c I know the way it went for me, I dropped an aircraft that didn't exist when I started nav school and it's turned out to be awesome. Roll with the punches, don't suck, and things will turn out fine for 69% of the guys out there...

Edited November 18, 2010 by nsplayr

[Dupe]

Basically, you've gained a cooler, better program for some uncertainty as to exactly how it will go down and what career options are out there. Not better or worse one way or the other (vs. the old & somewhat outdated but more stable program). Anyways, keep your eyes and ears open b/c I know the way it went for me, I dropped an aircraft that didn't exist when I started nav school and it's turned out to be awesome. Roll with the punches, don't suck, and things will turn out fine for 69% of the guys out there...

I went through the Navy program at Pensacola. From my perspective, tomorrow's F-15E WSOs will have less training than those going through the T-39 program. However, the competition required to get to the F-15E pit will be higher, so the Strike community will be better off. As an added bonus, hopefully we get WSOs to the FTU in less than 16 months.

CSO studs: The systems we're putting on aircraft are rapidly changing. As a result, virtually any training you recieve will be outdated and possibly not appropriate to the platform you'll end up in. Your job now is to learn how to learn. You'll use those skills when new equipment, systems, and capabilities get bolted on or integrated in to your old-as-dirt airplane.

[nsplayr]

I went through the Navy program at Pensacola. From my perspective, tomorrow's F-15E WSOs will have less training than those going through the T-39 program. However, the competition required to get to the F-15E pit will be higher, so the Strike community will be better off. As an added bonus, hopefully we get WSOs to the FTU in less than 16 months.

Interesting...hope the new program produces a better product overall, to me the old RND program was heavily weighted toward learning how to nav a C-130 which is great if you're going to herks and not so much for anyone else.

CSO studs: The systems we're putting on aircraft are rapidly changing. As a result, virtually any training you recieve will be outdated and possibly not appropriate to the platform you'll end up in. Your job now is to learn how to learn. You'll use those skills when new equipment, systems, and capabilities get bolted on or integrated in to your old-as-dirt airplane.

Shack. Listen to his advice any CSO wannabes/current students. What you learn in training may be tangentially related to what you'll do in your airframe, but it's very important to both learn how to learn and how to have the right attitude.

[B52gator]

Just out of curiosity...for old school Nav/Radar types (guys who were trained as Navs and upgraded to RNs), how is the CSO program working out? Are there battles with a scrawny little spit-fuk about who rides where? Or do they have to actually work their way up to the left like everyone else? Been "out" for two years and just wondering how it is working in the real world.

Edited December 4, 2010 by b52gator

[FlyingBull]

Just out of curiosity...for old school Nav/Radar types (guys who were trained as Navs and upgraded to RNs), how is the CSO program working out? Are there battles with a scrawny little spit-fuk about who rides where? Or do they have to actually work their way up to the left like everyone else? Been "out" for two years and just wondering how it is working in the real world.

I imagine that such a situation hasn't happened yet because there still aren't any new CSO's. The first class to graduate the new program get their wings in April of 2011. Currently there are no new CSO's coming out of the pipeline.

[nsplayr]

I'd say depends on how you look at it. We've all been "CSOs" for a couple years now, but I'm not familiar with how long the dual-seat qual in the Buff has gone on. In terms of "how is the new product from P-cola doing?" question, flyingbull is right that they don't exist yet b/c they haven't graduated. In terms of "how are young dual-seaters in the buff doing?" question, I have no idea and differ to someone in that community.

My platform has both navs/ewos sitting a common CSO seat and honestly I don't think there's really a difference between who does better or whatever. I don't even know if people were nav or ewo (either from nav school or another platform) and the pilots I've talked to don't seem to know or care either. BL: "CSO" as a concept works for us at least.

[Mike Honcho]

I'd say depends on how you look at it. We've all been "CSOs" for a couple years now, but I'm not familiar with how long the dual-seat qual in the Buff has gone on. In terms of "how is the new product from P-cola doing?" question, flyingbull is right that they don't exist yet b/c they haven't graduated. In terms of "how are young dual-seaters in the buff doing?" question, I have no idea and differ to someone in that community.

My platform has both navs/ewos sitting a common CSO seat and honestly I don't think there's really a difference between who does better or whatever. I don't even know if people were nav or ewo (either from nav school or another platform) and the pilots I've talked to don't seem to know or care either. BL: "CSO" as a concept works for us at least.

Do you guys actually call each other CSO's? Say it aint so.

[nsplayr]

Do you guys actually call each other CSO's? Say it aint so.

Uhh, yes. It's doesn't really sound any gayer than EWO or WSO once you get used to it and there's really no other option. To the future!

[08Dawg]

Just out of curiosity...for old school Nav/Radar types (guys who were trained as Navs and upgraded to RNs), how is the CSO program working out? Are there battles with a scrawny little spit-fuk about who rides where? Or do they have to actually work their way up to the left like everyone else? Been "out" for two years and just wondering how it is working in the real world.

Well, being one of those bastard dual-seat qual navs...it's been my practice that I will be a nav first, and a radar later, when I've paid my dues in the right seat and the squadron trusts me enough to sit in the left seat full time. We do get some left seat time, because those skills are perishable, but it's usually shorter duration flights, and never a live weapons drop or anything like that. The old-school RNs also usually don't mind if you snag a little left seat time in the sim. Everybody's doing their best to make the DSN thing work, in one form or another, and I haven't really seen any young guys get uppity and think they're just as much of a radar as the traditional guys. But, similiar to the CSO stud's question, it's a little frustrating because, while they did a great job of creating the FTU syllabus, there wasn't much thought beyond that, such as when we'll technically start being radars and stop being navs, how many hours will it take to become experienced, and upgrade to instructor.

As for how the Buff's going to deal with the PCola CSOs...no freakin' clue. There's this idea out there that perhaps we can be triple seat qualified, which would IMHO be even more of a nightmare than the DSN thing. I've also heard you'd be qualed as an EW and a nav, and "upgrade" to radar later. Simplest thing in my mind would almost be to "drop" a Buff nav or a Buff EW, or have some kind of selection once you get to Barksdale. Either way, it's going to be very interesting.

[Dubs]

There's this idea out there that perhaps we can be triple seat qualified

If that happens, good luck with those semi-annuals!

[lazlo]

Uhh, yes. It's doesn't really sound any gayer than EWO or WSO once you get used to it and there's really no other option. To the future!

It is a pretty gay... But I got head-butted by the O-5 Nav Sq/CC at a roll call at IFF for all of us not drinking to his "when one CSO drinks, they all drink!" It is, unfortunately, the future.

Edited January 5, 2011 by lazlo

[Guest flybeav]

The most recent post I could find was back in July '09 saying CSOs were under a separate IFS syllabus from pilots. Any change to this now CSO school's at Pensacola? Is the CSO syllabus the least bit useful in eventually acquiring a PPL?

[lazlo]

The most recent post I could find was back in July '09 saying CSOs were under a separate IFS syllabus from pilots. Any change to this now CSO school's at Pensacola? Is the CSO syllabus the least bit useful in eventually acquiring a PPL?

A buddy in my class still had to shell out a couple thousand to finish his PPL, and he went through the pilot program before the Nav syllabus. I think most of it was x-country stuff. If it is a stripped down syllabus from that, you can still count on shelling out some bucks.

[08Dawg]

The most recent post I could find was back in July '09 saying CSOs were under a separate IFS syllabus from pilots. Any change to this now CSO school's at Pensacola? Is the CSO syllabus the least bit useful in eventually acquiring a PPL?

I got mine after IFS, but I went through the pilot syllabus. You'll need the XC, night, and a little hood time. You'll also have to work on stuff like short/soft field TOs/landings, but it's not that hard. Hopefully you can find some place close that rents a DA-20, but if not, moving into a Cessna or a Piper isn't that hard.

[nsplayr]

It is a pretty gay... But I got head-butted by the O-5 Nav Sq/CC at a roll call at IFF for all of us not drinking to his "when one CSO drinks, they all drink!" It is, unfortunately, the future.

I didn't like it at first but got used to it very quickly. It doesn't sound noticeably different from WSO and that's been used and kosher for years. Anyways...it's been technically true since like 2006 and it's the present for me so I accept it.

[08Dawg]

I didn't like it at first but got used to it very quickly. It doesn't sound noticeably different from WSO and that's been used and kosher for years. Anyways...it's been technically true since like 2006 and it's the present for me so I accept it.

Without going too deep into this can of worms, I really think it varies platform to platform. A U-28? Yes, very much a CSO, at least from what I've been told. A Buff or a Herc? Unless you're sitting upstairs and backwards, very much a nav, although interestingly, I've seen some forms that way B-52 WSO, like WIC class rosters and stuff like that.

[lazlo]

Pretty sure WSO's are only on Strike Eagles and Bones... That was the whole point of the separate training.

Edited January 10, 2011 by lazlo

[08Dawg]

Pretty sure WSO's are only on Strike Eagles and Bones... That was the whole point of the separate training.

Playing devil's advocate...

Tell me a Buff radar nav with a Litening Pod isn't as much of a weapons systems employer as a Bone OSO. Which is also why you get the occasional PCola grads getting sent to the Buff FTU.

[lazlo]

Playing devil's advocate...

Tell me a Buff radar nav with a Litening Pod isn't as much of a weapons systems employer as a Bone OSO. Which is also why you get the occasional PCola grads getting sent to the Buff FTU.

I will plead ignorance, as I only know my own craft. But, as far as I know, Buff navs have not ever been referred to as WSO's.... Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they do great work..

Edited January 11, 2011 by lazlo

[nsplayr]

To me it's all semantics really and anyone who really cares that much about their title should probably have bigger things on their mind.

I get what you're saying though, buffs certainly drop as many if not more weapons than bones. Probably has to do with buffs being around since before the concept of a WSO existed...