Combat Systems Officer (CSO) info; Nav, EWO, WSO

[SemperSicEm]

The chance at going to SUPT sounds pretty good at this point. I have a better chance at winning the lottery at this point. Well I feel like I did since they are even considering a height waiver once I get FCCs in the C-17 and C-130s and optional in UH-1 and HH-60.

I think I was curious if my name still gets thrown in the hat for Strike nav since ENJJPT is a bust for me now.

[Odium]

I think I was curious if my name still gets thrown in the hat for Strike nav since ENJJPT is a bust for me now.

There is no such thing as the Strike Nav path anymore, the new consolidated CSO training school down at P'cola has drops just like UPT. Unless you're Guard/Reserve going in, you have a competitive shot at dropping anything the AF has CSOs on (Assuming you pass the FACT).

General SA: Suck it up (STS) and roll with it, I don't think proactively dropping a Pilot slot because you're afraid you won't get T-38s or can't go to ENJJPT is going to win you many friends. A lot of people go into UPT wanting a T-38 and end up not wanting them by the end of Phase II. Same token, you can go to CSO school, ace the program and still not get F-15Es if you happen to have a class drop that doesn't have any.

Good luck

Edited September 8, 2011 by Odium

[SemperSicEm]

I was just curious if that ever happened to anyone out of AFROTC. I don't know why we sign a memo on that about categorization then, seems pointless. I won't be getting T-38s no matter what (height/safety issue), but being an AF pilot or CSO is still an awesome thing to pursue as a career. Thanks for the input!

[lazlo]

I know of one WSO to fail out of IFF, and one each in 3 consecutive classes to fail out of the B-Course (one in mine). A few others from Pensacola failed throughout the program, to include one in IFS... The old program did a pretty good job of setting you up for success. We had a "bluing" class at the end to tie things up with what to expect when we "went back to the AF" and what specifically would be different from Navy training. Military formal flying training courses aren't a joke, and some people just aren't cut out for it. That's just always the way it will be.

Fly Tri: I did know of a few UPT washouts that were sent to Pensacola. With the new comprehensive Nav program, I don't see how they could ensure a Strike-Nav slot anymore. It sucks. Good words from Odium.

Edited September 8, 2011 by lazlo

[christofury]

Looks like I got my dates:

AMS -- MAXWELL -- 22 JAN THRU 2 MAR 12

SV8CS -- PUEBLO -- 24 APR 12 THRU 18 MAY 12 --

SV86A -- PENSACOLA -- 12 JUN THRU 14 JUN 12 --

CV4PP -- PENSACOLA -- 18 JUN 12 THRU 4 OCT 12 --

CV4PA -- PENSACOLA -- 5 OCT 12 THRU 23 MAY 13 --

Can anyone tell me what SV86A, CV4PP and CV4PA mean?

Edited December 7, 2011 by christofury

[theSituation]

Sv86a is parachuting water survival. Cv4pp and cv4pa are t-6 and t-1 CSO training.

[belumaves]

Thread bump. Just read through this thread and figured I'd save people the trouble of culling the new from the old about what the expect from p-cola. This is accurate as of when I graduated in January, but the syllabus there is changing faster than you can blink.

So you got selected for CSO, here's what to expect.

Casual status: The pipeline has not been very backed up for a while, so don't expect to be spending months laying around on the beach. That said, this will be the most time you have to enjoy p-cola, so make the most of it, go to the beach (I think Perdido Key is better than p-cola beach, but it depends on how many people you are looking to be with) enjoy your time off. There will be job opportunities that come along, volunteer for some of them, but don't go hog wild thinking that it will look great on your record, no one will care after you get your wings.

As far as housing, you can live on or off base for the time being. If you live on base you will be in base housing (privatized, so they take your BAH and you sign a lease) sharing a place with two others. If you choose to go off base there are lots of good options within about 15 min of the back gate that are very nice and are a good price. There are dorms under construction, once they are done (sometime next year I think) then all singles will have to live there.

IFS: While on casual you will go to IFS in Pueblo, CO. The CSO program there is about 3-4 weeks long depending on your aptitude and the weather. The first week will be academics, pilot, CSO, RPA (or whatever the hell they are calling themselves today) all together learning the same stuff. Once you begin flying you will have several rides straight our of the pilot syllabus where you learn basic aircraft control and aviation, how to talk on the radio, and some basic navigation. The last few rides are visual navigation where you visually navigate a given route adjusting the speed to hit the turnpoints on time, the focus is on your awareness of where you are and where you are going, so no need to worry about things like flying the airplane, the IP takes care of that.

The key to surviving IFS is to study and chair fly like crazy. The volume of material that you are expected to learn and the rate at which you need to master it is deliberately crafted to challenge you, it's a screening program. Make sure you are in the books every night and chair fly ever flight, and you should be ok

Begin UCT!

Primary phase: Primary begins with a big load of classes, again it's all about staying in the books, from here on everything counts towards your final ranking.

First comes some time with physiology where you learn just how not suited humans are to flying. Then you learn about basic aeronautics, simple navigation (instrument and dead reckoning), flight planning, working as a crew, and a huge load of T-6 systems. Finally you get a couple of sim rides to get comfortable with the checklists and watching all the instruments move as you do things in the back seat and then it's off to the flight line! On the flight line you will (hopefully) fly almost every day, and your job is to plan the flights and brief the pilot on what you will be doing. You start with instrument flights on which you go up and do an IFR flight from place to place, usually with a stop to do a few approaches at an outlying field. Your main role is developing your air sense and telling the IP what to do, they will attempt to be a "voice activated autopilot" that does what it is told. Once you have a handle on that you begin to fly low levels. Again, you plan them, you brief them, in the air you direct them.

Advanced: This is where the real CSO learning begins. In the advanced phase you will cover a new topic about every three weeks, from academics to a test, sim missions and a checkride. First is basic high level radar navigation, learning to interpret what you see on a radar scope and find yourself on a chart, and then putting that to use to get yourself somewhere on time. Next is the very EWO part of the course where you learn all about radar threat systems and how to identify them. The self protect phase puts the two together and you navigate to hit a target on time, while evading threats along the route.

Then it is back to the airplane, only now it's the T-1. You will again do several high level missions and several low levels, only now it's as part of a crew. You and another student plan the flight together and each fly half, managing things between yourself, the pilot and the instructor CSO.

Back in simulator land you are again playing EWO as you plan offensive jamming against an enemy. Finally comes air to air operations, where you use an AA radar to run intercepts against a bogey. Then, the final integration exercise. You wrap it all up and spend days pouring through the 3-1 tactics manuals in order to plan, in it's entirety, a day one strike against whatever bad guy is in vogue at that time.

Selection process: Because this is what it's all about anyway. The drop will come sometime just before or during your integration phase. Everthing you have done up to this point is taken into acount and weighted accordingly. Tests are worth a lot, checkrides are as well. Your class instructor will put his own ranking in and will then rack and stack the entire class. Each instructor runs things a little different but in general you have no idea what aircraft are coming down the pipe, so you fill our your dream sheet from first choice to last. Remember that nothing has been determined prior to this point so you are also indicating your desire for NAV/EWO/WSO/CSO. Then your instructor starts with guy number one and sees if he can give him his first pick, and works his way down the list like that. Drop night comes, and you learn your fate!

So, how do you get what you want? Be the best you can at every step of the way, it's incredibly competetive and the split between top and bottom of the class can be as little as 3 percentage points. If you put in the work, study hard, and rock every check ride, you stand a pretty good chance of being where you want to be, after that it's all up to AFPC and what they decide to send your way.

I think what airframes are available has been flogged to death elsewhere, so I shall call this a wrap.

[Guest]

I won't be getting T-38s no matter what (height/safety issue)

[Fozzy Bear]

What are available options for CSO's?

Looking at post AF gigs. Homeland Security, alphabet soup, contract sensor operator... There are jobs out there, but what have old tanker navs, AFSOC CSO's, FOCO's had luck with?

[backseatdriver]

What are available options for CSO's?

Looking at post AF gigs. Homeland Security, alphabet soup, contract sensor operator... There are jobs out there, but what have old tanker navs, AFSOC CSO's, FOCO's had luck with?

Lots of dudes from the Gunship community have transitioned to the contract ISR world recently or contractor world (selling sensor systems, weapons, etc for current and future SOF platforms.....those companies value their expertise, experience, clearance, and most importantly their relationships/access to the communities). A handful become blue suiters at the schoolhouse.

Homeland Security/alphabet suit jobs are available and suited to the SOF background, but it all depends on when you get out and what they're going to hire you to do. The retired O-5 isn't going to join the FBI's training pipeline, so at some point that becomes a missed opportunity (usually around the mid O-3 point unless you want to take a 40-50% pay cut). The CIA doesn't advertise what they offer to transitioning military, you just have to apply and see what they will offer.

And it's FCO (Fire Control Officer), not FOCO.

[ATIS]

Homeland Security/alphabet suit jobs are available and suited to the SOF background, but it all depends on when you get out and what they're going to hire you to do. The retired O-5 isn't going to join the FBI's training pipeline, so at some point that becomes a missed opportunity (usually around the mid O-3 point unless you want to take a 40-50% pay cut). The CIA doesn't advertise what they offer to transitioning military, you just have to apply and see what they will offer.

Stressing this point... most "organizations" take you in on the ground floor and train you up in some capacity, no matter what your experience. Don't expect to leave the service as a 0-4/0-5 (GS-13/14 level) and lateral into that same pay scale/grade. I have been though this process and in the end decided against it because of the downgrade in pay and benefits that would result (currently a civilian high step GS-14 and a 0-5 Reserve Commander in the Navy). If I were an 0-3 again, just getting out after my original commitment, different story.

Your resume (with your experience) will get you in the door for an interview, but don't have any illusions. Some of my former mates have made a go in the civi ISR market. Pay is OK, but expect to be on the road to make that level of pay.

Cheers

ATIS

Edited for spelling.

Edited July 11, 2012 by ATIS