Customs and courtesies

[Gravedigger]

I was hanging out at the airport on Tuesday in my AFROTC service dress. It was only 1300 so I couldn't take them off yet. Anyways, two Lt. Cols. walked into the flight school in uniform. I jumped to attention and they both started joking with me. Leaving, re-entering etc. So I was wondering, are you supposed to come to attention if you are not on a military installation when officers enter a room? I did because its better to be safe than sorry, but I was wondering if I should have. :confused:

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

You shouldn't come to attention, rather stand as a sign of military respect. Customs and courtesies are valid both on and off base, on and off duty.

You did the right thing...

[Smokin]

You should check with your wing staff, I only had cadets wear their uniform when they're on campus between 0800-1700, unless they were in their dorm room, had a job, or a PE class or something. You shouldn't have to wear it at the airport just because it's LLAB day.

[Guest gonads]

Rule is O-6 or above. I know you are supposed to come to attention for your cadre, but these guys were obviously not in your chain and were ops. Good lesson to know when to draw the line.

[M2]

c17wannabe

You did right. As a rule:

- I always stand when someone from my chain of command or someone higher in rank to me comes up and talks to me

- I always stand when my commander enters the room

- I always stand when a Colonel or higher enters a room, unless there is already someone of equal or higher rank in the room

- I appreciate it when people junior to me stand when I address them and I am standing

- As you get older you will find it is less "jumping/snapping to attention" and more "politely rising." Don't want anyone to hurt themselves...

- When in doubt, stand up. You will never be wrong in doing so (just don't call a room to attention when there is someone of higher rank already in there. I've seen that happen on several occassions. Unless designated, or when it is completely obvious, let someone else do it).

Cheers! M2

[Toro]

Originally posted by Gonads:

Rule is O-6 or above.

I don't know if that's written anywhere, but I side with MajorMadMax - stand up when someone higher ranking is talking to you. It's not being 'jumpy' and it's a sign of disrespect if you (especially as a cadet) are sitting down talking to a higher ranking officer. This definitely goes for commanders, which are primarily going to be O-5s.

I know you are supposed to come to attention for your cadre, but these guys were obviously not in your chain and were ops. Good lesson to know when to draw the line.

Totally disagree. Not being in your chain has nothing to do with military customs and courtesies. I've saluted Marine, Navy, and foreign officers whose rank I was unsure of - going by the motto, "When in doubt, whip it out" By the same token, I had 2nd Lts salute me as a 1Lt, I've had 1Lts call me "Sir" as a captain, and I've had CMSgts stand from their desk when they talk to me - I just shrugged off the salutes, told the Lts not to call me sir and told the chiefs to sit down. There is no harm in showing military courtesy when it may not be necessary, but the one day when you blow it off because somebody is "not in your chain of command" or you don't think he deserves it is the gonna be the guy who is a complete hardass about it (Get a room of Army guys together and the first thing they do is figure out everybody's date of rank so they know who to address as "sir").

[Guest Dactyl]

You definatley did the right thing, as a cadet (especially a GMC) you should be showing the utmost respect to all military personell. Unfortunatley you may be in a gray line like your situation. As with saluting, apply the "if in doubt.." policy with all aspects of customs and courtesies. You might look like an idiot sometimes but it's a lot better than making it look like you have no respect.

As you progress through ROTC and AD (Im still ROTC so I can't speak for that) you'll get experienced enough to tell which situations warrant which actions with this kind of thing.

[Guest C-130 Nav]

I think you did the right thing. When you're working with lots of officers (i.e. in a flying unit) you'll see that you only call the room to attention for O-6s and above and for the squadron commander. But being a cadet, I think it's good to show respect for senior officers. Either way, it's better to be safe than sorry. I think there's nothing wrong with having a little courtesy. When I was a 2nd Lt, for example, I used to salute 1st Lts. No one really expected me to do that (and being a 1st Lt, I definitely don't expect to get a salute from a 2nd Lt), but I always thought that if a CMSgt saluted me, then I should salute other officers of higher rank. There's really no right or wrong answer. Maybe going to attention once when they enter the room the first time, that was good enough. But I think I probably would've done the same thing in your situation. Good job!

[Toro]

Epic thread revival.

So I'm walking with an O-5 yesterday and a CMSgt walks past the two of us and salutes. I (an O-4) do nothing while allowing the senior ranking officer to return the salute. The LtCol later tells me that the Chief tracked him down to tell him that I was supposed to return the salute along with the LtCol because "we weren't in formation."

I call BS.

I would agree that the two of us would salute an O-6 since we're not in formation, but does every higher ranking officer in a gaggle return the salute of a lower ranking individual? Reference appreciated (couldn't find anything on E-pubs) so I can tell the Chief to pound sand if he ever brings it up with me (though I'm sure he's on his way to the Deid to enforce tucked-in-PT-shirt-policy).

[Day Man]

Epic thread revival.

So I'm walking with an O-5 yesterday and a CMSgt walks past the two of us and salutes. I (an O-4) do nothing while allowing the senior ranking officer to return the salute. The LtCol later tells me that the Chief tracked him down to tell him that I was supposed to return the salute along with the LtCol because "we weren't in formation."

I call BS.

I would agree that the two of us would salute an O-6 since we're not in formation, but does every higher ranking officer in a gaggle return the salute of a lower ranking individual? Reference appreciated (couldn't find anything on E-pubs) so I can tell the Chief to pound sand if he ever brings it up with me (though I'm sure he's on his way to the Deid to enforce tucked-in-PT-shirt-policy).

AFI 34-1201

8.1.4.3. In a work detail, workers do not salute. The person in charge salutes for the entire detail.

Says the same about formations.

[Vertigo]

Epic thread revival.

So I'm walking with an O-5 yesterday and a CMSgt walks past the two of us and salutes. I (an O-4) do nothing while allowing the senior ranking officer to return the salute. The LtCol later tells me that the Chief tracked him down to tell him that I was supposed to return the salute along with the LtCol because "we weren't in formation."

I guess the question should be- do you think the Chief was rendering you a salute as well as the O5? If so, then you are obligated to return that salute.

Last sentence of AFI 34-1201 para 8.1.1.1

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I had understood that if two or more officers are together, and one of them is senior to the others, the salute from other folks walking past is directed at the senior ranking individual. Of course I could be wrong, but that's just what I've used over the years. Suffice to say, I've never had an intrepid SNCO track me down to tell me I was wrong. WTF is with that? You claim you saluted me out of respect but then you're going to throw a flag onto the field and stomp around because of something minor like that? Do Chiefs really have nothing else better to do with their time?

[nsplayr]

Actually had something like this yesterday. Was walking down the sidewalk approaching a gaggle of 2 Es and an O-5. As we approach, I salute the O-5, he salutes back, but the Es pop salutes at the same time as they pass me. It ended up as a giant saluting gaggle. I thought just the col. and I should have exchanged salutes with the Es he was with being part of his "group" or "formation" or "work detail" or whatever...

Luckily all involved were flyers and the Es weren't top 3 so I don't anticipate any retribution for possibly violating sacred regs

Edited April 25, 2009 by nsplayr

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

Actually had something like this yesterday. Was walking down the sidewalk approaching a gaggle of 2 Es and an O-5. As we approach, I salute the O-5, he salutes back, but the Es pop salutes at the same time as they pass me. It ended up as a giant saluting gaggle. I thought just the col. and I should have exchanged salutes with the Es he was with being part of his "group" or "formation" or "work detail" or whatever...

Luckily all involved were flyers and the Es weren't top 3 so I don't anticipate any retribution for possibly violating sacred regs

I see stuff like this happen all the time in the Pentagon. As long as everyone involved makes a good faith effort to express customs and courtesies, then no one throws a hissy. Technically, the E's should have saluted you first, then you return the salute and hold, the O-5 acknowleges your salute and drops, you drop your salute, the E's drop their salute. Then everyone goes get ice cream.

For Toro:

The CSMGT was correct. It sucks getting called out, but how else would we learn? The one fault I see with him is he should have contacted you directly instead of getting the LTC involved.

SJ4

[Vetter]

For Toro:

The CSMGT was correct. It sucks getting called out, but how else would we learn? The one fault I see with him is he should have contacted you directly instead of getting the LTC involved.

SJ4

I think it's something called perspective...most of the shoe-tools lack it. While the CMSGT may be correct, clearly if he has the time to track down an O-5 to correct an O-4...his ass should be force shaped.

I would track him down and ask him my he doesn't have the integrity to correct you on the spot if he thought it so important.

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

I think it's something called perspective...most of the shoe-tools lack it. While the CMSGT may be correct, clearly if he has the time to track down an O-5 to correct an O-4...his ass should be force shaped.

I would track him down and ask him my he doesn't have the integrity to correct you on the spot if he thought it so important.

Not that I'm defending the Chief; but never, EVER get in a pissing match with one. You will lose. From that Chief's perspective, he's doing you a favor. If you challenge his integrity on this, his next action will be to call the Wg/CC and tell him what a taco-supremo douchebag you are. Furthermore you will now be on the SNCO Mafia's shitlist. Just don't do it.

SJ4

[BQZip01]

So there I was...

...walking down the sidewalk as a student (I was a Captain at the time) chatting with a 2Lt. There's a Navy LT walking up to us.

Knowing ROTC doesn't always prepare young O's with every Customs & Courtesies moment, I whisper, "Salute the El Tee."

"What?"

"Salute the Lieutenant"

"What?"

Just then the LT passes us, whips around, and nearly screams, "Am I not good enough to deserve a salute?!?!" He goes on berating the young butterbar for about a minute not realizing I'm a Captain. Then he turns to me and says, "and why didn't you salute!?!? I don't want to hear any excuses either."

"Um...we're the same rank."

He pauses and looks at my shoulders for my rank. Mulls it over. Then says...

"Then why didn't you tell him to salute"

"I did"

"Why is there any confusion over proper D&C [Drill and Ceremonies] and etiquette?"

"Because Air Force regs aren't entirely clear on the subject." (what consists of a "detail"? We were two guys going to do a job for our Flt CC)

The guy reported me and the 2Lt to my flight commander anyways. He had a 3 minute chat with us over the situation and told us not to let it happen again. I don't blame the Flt CC; he was under pressure from some Navy higher-ups to make sure proper D&C were being followed. But by the same token, the guy could just as easily have pulled aside and let us know instead of intentionally trying to make us look bad in front of our superiors.

So, what I took away from that was

1. Just let people know if they aren't doing something correctly. Give them the benefit of the doubt. One team...one fight...

2. Some people will be dickish over the littlest things.

[Mutt]

Guys, its not your choice of which reg you want to follow and which ones tickle your fancy. The rules are laid out for us for a reason. When its your turn and you are the GO in charge, remember all this BS that you are whinning about and dont make the same mistake or rules. And if you are lucky enough to have a SNCO working for you, make sure you lay out expectation about how you want him/her to handle the situations.

Personally I agree w/ the ness of the Shoe-Nazi's and how they approach the situation. All they need to do is pull you over to the side and give a simple heads up about the situation.

As for me, whenever I had a situation in which I percieved an E as intentionally avoiding the salute in public, I would do something simple like approach him and ask him what time it was. That way it didnt leave a bad taste in his mouth (STS), and he got the point.

My personal situation that I passed through was TDY at Lackland as a brandnew 2Lt. While walking throught he parking lot near Defense Language Inst, I made eye contace w/ an O-6 who was approx about 50+ yards away. I acknowledged him by nodding my head and saying "Sir". Short of a full run, he ordered me to stop and stand at attention. For about 10 min, he proceeded to chew every bit of my ass for not presenting the proper customs and courties. He took my unit information and contacted my O-5. That same day I get a call from my boss. The beauty of it is that he thought the O-6 was a total assclown and reminded me to keep my SA at LAFB. From that point on I always followed the "when is doubt, whip it out" rule.

Mutt

[Fud]

Personally, I'll salute regardless, unless I'm walking around with an O-6 (which is rare). I have been told numerous times that I do not need to salute a higher ranking officer if I am walking with one of equal or higher rank. However, my philosophy is to avoid being chewed out because it is a waste of my time. Also, being an O-2, even if I have the regs on my side, I will rarely win a battle in my unit.

[Jughead]

My personal situation that I passed through was TDY at Lackland as a brandnew 2Lt. While walking throught he parking lot near Defense Language Inst, I made eye contace w/ an O-6 who was approx about 50+ yards away. I acknowledged him by nodding my head and saying "Sir". Short of a full run, he ordered me to stop and stand at attention. For about 10 min, he proceeded to chew every bit of my ass for not presenting the proper customs and courties. He took my unit information and contacted my O-5. That same day I get a call from my boss. The beauty of it is that he thought the O-6 was a total assclown and reminded me to keep my SA at LAFB. From that point on I always followed the "when is doubt, whip it out" rule.

Umm... so, you were passing an O-6 in such a manner that both of you were able to establish eye-contact, and you chose not to salute? While I can't agree w/ the approach the colonel took in correcting you, you WERE wrong....

[Jughead]

Isn't there some sort of stated AFI distance beyond which you do NOT salute? I thought it was 6 paces or some such thing. 50 yards is beyond where I would salute. Last week I did the nod and wave to a LtCol who was maybe 15 yards away. I would gladly salute if we crossed paths or were anywhere near in the same vicinity, but if you are across the parking lot from each other, a salute doesn't make sense, and I'm pretty sure the AFI backs that up.

Short answer is NO.

Longer answer is that the salute IS the greeting--not the "nod and wave." You may be thinking of the verbal part of the greeting, wherein you obviously need to be within audible greeting distance. Relevant AFI passages below.

Bottom line, the junior greets the senior by way of salute. Your "across the parking lot" example is perfect--if you're across the parking lot & not interacting, then no, the salute doesn't make sense. However, if you've recognized each other (and you clearly have, both in your example and in Mutt's), the junior is obligated to salute the senior. Your "6 paces" is a reasonable rule of thumb for when to initiate when approaching a senior officer, but it can't cover all situations.

AFI 34-1201, "Protocol," 4 Oct 06 (already cited earlier in this thread, if you look back), in relevant part:

8.1. Hand Salutes.

8.1.1. The hand salute is the form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the

armed services. All Air Force personnel in uniform are required to salute when they encounter any

person or situation entitled to the salute.

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute

accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma’am.” Salute and

extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute

early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All

salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately

acknowledged.

8.1.3. A member not in formation but in uniform, salutes as follows:

NOTE: Rendering/returning salutes is not required if either or both are in civilian attire or have their

hands full; however, a greeting such as good morning sir/ma’am” is appropriate.

Who

United States Air Force Officers Senior in Rank

Where

Outdoors

Salute When

When recognized by the junior member

[FlyinGrunt]

yeah man - if you didn't make eye contact or something, I'd say you're in the clear; 50 feet or whatever is way farther than the minimum to acquire the target etc. But if you make eye contact with somebody ranking you . . . salute. Even if it's way far. That having been said, that O-6 should have just had a conversation with you about such, not haze you. Obviously, it's kinda hazy in the reg, and that would be a good opportunity to develop a new 2Lt rather than make them bitter.

[Guest rotorhead]

"2" to the "when in doubt, whip it out"... it costs so little. And yeah, throw in a "STS" if it makes you happy.

Salute simply means, (junior member) "I acknowledge your rank" followed by (senior member) "I acknowledge your acknowledgement/thanks."

I had also heard the lore of "within x paces you salute,etc." It is not specified. The regs say: "To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical; however, good judgment should dictate when salutes are exchanged." This translates to two things: A> Don't get hung up over it, acknowledge folks and use common sense. and B> This is intentionally vague so folks with hangups can call you out over it and the ambiguous reference makes them "not wrong."

One thing some "ate up" enlisted folks do from time to time is to proclaim as fact/reg items from their PFE texts. Those texts include data from regs but also include peripheral editorial that are unfortunately interpreted as gospel. Crap like "what's in the base truck" (flagpole finial) is spewed forth as fact everyone should know, when it is really just "pamphlet fodder" that no officer will ever read. A quick example in my world now:

Bus from school A passes bus from school B. School B calls and says it's illegal for a school bus to pass another school bus. A little research proved to me that the "Bus Driver How To Manual" from the state had a sentence that said "You should never pass another school bus." It wasn't law (confirmed by a call to a state trooper) but some driver from school B interpreted the "manual" as state code. It was no more "law" than the sentence "Be sure you check the oil before each trip."

[outbreak]

So there I was, walkin out of the squadron, unable to avoid two MX E's walking in. One dude legitimately had his hands full, so I wasn't expecting one from him. The other guy transferred his headset to his other hand to "fill it up." They gave a verbal greeting, I'm not the type to chew out some E in the middle of a parking lot (or anywhere for that matter) so I just kept walking. The E-7 who was 5 steps behind me wasn't so forgiving. He tore into the headset carrier for not saluting an officer, blah blah blah. I was putting my bag in the car when the E-7 passed me, saluted sharply, "Good afternoon, sir!" and then dropped it before I could get my hand past my name patch...struck me as ironic that he bitched out some kids for not saluting and then didn't even salute me properly.

When I'm the lower-ranking, I always went with the "LT's don't salute each other" technique. I always salute O-3's, even when they don't want me to, because I know I'll find one that does at some point. I return salutes even when I'm walking with higher-ranking guys. I salute higher ranking officers even when I'm walking with one. Just cuz I'm walking with a Major doesn't mean a Capt doesn't outrank me.

ETA: Anyone find they don't expect officer rank on BDU/ABU's anymore? I almost missed an O-4 a couple weeks ago because he had all subdued rank on his BDU's and his cover, and I rarely see officers in anything but blues or bags.

Edited April 26, 2009 by outbreak

[Guest flyguy]

Since I have not had to do it lately...what is the rule on saluting like the Wing King if he/she is driving by and lets say you are walking in the parking lot....do you salute the car if it has the fancy bird hanging off the grill??