Customs and courtesies

[Rusty Pipes]

I doubt he'd have any issues taking on this crowd, without an iota of thought towards altering his perspective a bit...like a salmon swimming upriver, but without any real purpose...could be funny though.

Ha... but sometimes the salmon runs into a bear along the way. It never ends well for the salmon!

[panchbarnes]

Ha... but sometimes the salmon runs into a bear along the way. It never ends well for the salmon!

That's a great line.

[HeyWatchThis]

Kirtland 58 SOW units had the same thing. This is nothing cosmic as it's in the leave AFI (ie no distance restriction on a pass). I'm not trying to bust your balls on purpose each time, but you throw out a lot of information in which your assumptions turn out to not be accurate. Notice how I never comment on what Goodfellow does because I have never been there. Hopefully there is some learning going on here.

Vance had that policy as well when I was there, knew guys that would fly to NYC for a weekend.

That is definitely not true here at Laughlin.....even though the AFI explicitly says not to place mileage restrictions on regular/special passes, Laughlin still does...I guess they have a really strict interpretation of what "military requirements" are....

8.4. (LAUGHLIN) 1 Regular and Special Pass Guidelines. All active duty members,

Reservists, and Guardsmen attached to Laughlin Air Force Base will comply with the

following procedures (all civilian team

8.4.1. Impose no mileage restrictions. However, they may require members to be able to

return to duty within a reasonable time in the event of an operational mission requirement

such as a recall, unit alert, or unit emergency. At training bases, commanders can require

members to be able to return in time to resume training or class attendance. Commanders

need to base all restrictions on reasonable and legitimate military requirements.

8.4.1. (LAUGHLIN) Regular and Special Pass Guidelines. All active duty members,

Reservists, and Guardsmen attached to Laughlin Air Force Base will comply with the

following procedures (all civilian team members are welcome to participate). Members

taking leave or going TDY will follow currently established local procedures. Members

on regular or special pass will observe the following:

8.4.1.1. (Added-LAUGHLIN) U.S. travel within one hundred seventy-five (175)

statute miles of Laughlin AFB (in CONUS) -- No Action Required.

8.4.1.2. (Added-LAUGHLIN) U.S. travel outside one hundred seventy-five (175)

statute miles of Laughlin AFB (in CONUS) -- All members, under the age of 26, will

complete AETC FORM 29B, Predeparture Safety Briefing.

8.4.1.3. (Added-LAUGHLIN) Travel into Mexico – all members, regardless of age,

will complete AETC FORM 29B. All members will comply with current AETC/CC

General Order, Mexico Travel Restrictions and current 47 FTW/CC Mexico Travel

Guidance.

8.4.1.4. (Added-LAUGHLIN) Every member of Team XL is critical to the Air

Force mission. All commanders will establish thorough accountability programs, and

supervisors at all levels will emphasize personal and professional Operational Risk

Management (ORM).

8.4.1.5. (Added-LAUGHLIN) The 47 FTW/CC must approve any deviations to this

endorsement.

Not to mention the whole 30 miles vs AFI instructed 175 miles for the 29Bs...

The way the policy is enforced here is a bit confusing for some and honestly is back firing...the 29Bs are approved/disapproved not based on the mileage guidance above but on what each individual STUS FLT/CC feels like that particular weekend.....its been the source of a lot of frustration for some and ultimately drives a lot of dudes to just not fill one out (obviously at their own risk) which kinda eliminates the whole accountability thing that the 29Bs are trying to accomplish....

Edited February 13, 2014 by HeyWatchThis

[HU&W]

Words

So, you're saying there's no travel restriction in CONUS, but if you're under 26 and going more than 175 miles on the weekend you have to tell your boss and document your plan. Also, if you want to go to Mexico, you have to tell your boss and comply with any other restrictions on travel to Mexico. And the problem is?

[panchbarnes]

Ugh, you guys made me remember something ridiculous associated with the 29B.

One day the cadre decided to include duty hours (# of hrs in class) as part of the consecutive 8-hr rule for the 29B. So that means, if you wanted to drive to the nearest major city on a Friday after class, you better be showing carpool on that 29B, otherwise you'd be too fatigued to make the trek from San Angelo to Austin. And if you don't have the 29B in by Wednesday you ain't going nowhere for the weekend (stuck in San Angelo cage dancing at the local club w/ enlisted students).

To get back on topic...

There was this one particular job drop at the local park by the base. The SQ/CC was invited but the class wanted someone else (class leader?) to announce the drops. The SQ/CC would have none of that, took over the microphone and started announcing the drops. Because this was at a park and there were kids playing, legend has it the commander told the kids playing to shut up so everyone can hear the said commander speak.

[HeyWatchThis]

So, you're saying there's no travel restriction in CONUS, but if you're under 26 and going more than 175 miles on the weekend you have to tell your boss and document your plan. Also, if you want to go to Mexico, you have to tell your boss and comply with any other restrictions on travel to Mexico. And the problem is?

Per the AFI yes, however for us here at Laughlin there is:

- A travel restriction in CONUS

- 29B's for travel outside 30 miles, no matter the age

- Mexico is standard I guess, never looked into it....

The mileage allowed on weekends/extended weekends depends on the mood of individuals approaching that weekend, not per what the AFI says....

Edited February 13, 2014 by HeyWatchThis

[Guest]

believable claims

If morons like this applied their efforts to morale and the wingman concept, it would be much more successful at preventing DUI, sexual assault, etc. cases than the 68 to 70 pointless rules they think will make them look good to the bosses.

[jetip]

Per the AFI yes, however for us here at Laughlin there is:

- 29B's for travel outside 30 miles, no matter the age

Yea...uh.....not gunna happen. I've been at DLF forever and never heard this silly little rule. But as an old reservist, don't really care.

[albertschu]

Does the Mr. Chief (ret) Douche demand a fiber increase if it's not regular enough? Good lord...I see a candidate for force shaping, obviously he doesn't have enough to do as a contractor if he's got time to roam the hallways looking for hazees.

Sadly, contractors like this guy are "cheaper" (according to Liquid) than GIs. Can't wait until we have more of them.

[Liquid]

Sadly, contractors like this guy are "cheaper" (according to Liquid) than GIs. Can't wait until we have more of them.

Unlike GS and military, it is very easy to fire contractors. Just like in the real world. If those tormented by his guy formally and aggressively complained to the company that employs him, he would most likely be gone regardless of what the mil leadership thinks. That is one of the best thing about contractors, performance actually matters.

[Bob]

Speaking of young, impressionable Lts...

There were a couple of times the instructors told the students essentially that "if a pilot asks too many stupid questions during a brief just tell them to shut up and sit down."

Well, that'll be a self critiquing experience. I winced a little reading that. Did the instructor mention the type of squadron in which he thought that might end well for the intel guy?

Unlike GS and military, it is very easy to fire contractors. Just like in the real world. If those tormented by his guy formally and aggressively complained to the company that employs him, he would most likely be gone regardless of what the mil leadership thinks. That is one of the best thing about contractors, performance actually matters.

^^This. The only thing is, someone has to actually complain and then actually follow up. Easier said than done when the tormented group is students; i.e. highly transient and under constant evaluation pressure.

e.g. \/\/

oh, but he can

1. complain to leadership and get you washed back.

or

2. find a reason to wash you back from one of the briefs.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Bob

[panchbarnes]

Well, that'll be a self critiquing experience. I winced a little reading that. Did the instructor mention the type of squadron in which he thought that might end well for the intel guy?

It's been a while but I want to say the "Air Block" instructors (CGOs/NCOs) all came from fighter squadrons. They probably want the students to learn to be confident and aggressive, or run the risk of losing street cred in the briefing room. I just think the comments were over the top, the emphasis should be placed on technical competency and not bravado.

I'd say most of the instructors (CGOs/NCOs/contractors) that I've encountered were great, they want to see the students succeed in the course. It's just unfortunate a lot of them went along withe the absurd intimidation routine as encouraged by the leadership team.

Edited February 14, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[albertschu]

Unlike GS and military, it is very easy to fire contractors. Just like in the real world. If those tormented by his guy formally and aggressively complained to the company that employs him, he would most likely be gone regardless of what the mil leadership thinks. That is one of the best thing about contractors, performance actually matters.

If contractors are so great, cheap, and easy to fire, maybe we should replace Colonels and Generals with contractors.

[Tnkr]

Per the AFI yes, however for us here at Laughlin there is:

- A travel restriction in CONUS

- 29B's for travel outside 30 miles, no matter the age

- Mexico is standard I guess, never looked into it....

The mileage allowed on weekends/extended weekends depends on the mood of individuals approaching that weekend, not per what the AFI says....

I guess I'm not seeing where the restriction lies. If you travel beyond 175 mi from base you are required to fill out a 29B. Do they deny your pass at that point? I never had to deal with the ADCON portion of the FTU, but as I recall the stud Flt/cc just checked the plan for safety/validity and gave the typical "don't do anything dumb, dangerous, or different and keep it wrapped" speech. Otherwise it's not much of a pass. But it doesn't sound like a mileage restriction. Did I miss something?

[HeyWatchThis]

I guess I'm not seeing where the restriction lies. If you travel beyond 175 mi from base you are required to fill out a 29B. Do they deny your pass at that point? I never had to deal with the ADCON portion of the FTU, but as I recall the stud Flt/cc just checked the plan for safety/validity and gave the typical "don't do anything dumb, dangerous, or different and keep it wrapped" speech. Otherwise it's not much of a pass. But it doesn't sound like a mileage restriction. Did I miss something?

You are required to fill out a 29B if you are traveling beyond 30 miles. The 30 miles vs 175 miles isn't a big deal, I understand leadership wanting to know where their people are at but 30 miles, here in Del Rio, basically means you can't even make an impromptu trip to Eagle Pass, let alone San Antonio unless you "cleared" it with your STUS Flt/cc earlier in the week (not a realistic program honestly)..

There is a random mileage restriction being enforced for weekends. The distance allowed is not based on what the AFI says but simply on what your STUS Flt/CC feels is appropriate for his/her mood that week. Yes, they are disapproving 29B's if the STUS flt/cc doesn't agree with the distance that is being requested for the weekend, doesn't matter that the AFI says otherwise...

Example: AFI says do not place mileage restrictions however we had a dude who wanted to travel to a place 12 hrs away on a 3 day weekend. He had 3 other buds going with him who were going to help drive...pass was denied because the STUS FLT/CC thought a 12 hr drive was too long for just a 3 day weekend.

Edited February 17, 2014 by HeyWatchThis

[ElLoco]

Or just throw caution to the wind and just go...29B or not

[so.it.goes]

Or just throw caution to the wind and just go...29B or not

This was my method... Life's boring if you never roll the dice.

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[Wing Sweep]

All of you know that a command with a flaming dildo as an emblem can never be awesome.

[ElLoco]

This was my method... Life's boring if you never roll the dice.

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Mine as well

[Tnkr]

Words.

Interesting. I don't see that from the reg you quoted, but whatever. Shitty policy all around. I guess I can see it tho. When I was casual at Scott many moons ago (do they still do casual?) it wasn't the ROTC grads that went crazy with freedom and money. We had freedom and (some) money during college, so acting that way out of college wasn't that big of a deal. For the zoo grads, on the other hand....

[Azimuth]

All of you know that a command with a flaming dildo as an emblem can never be awesome.

It is when you're in it and don't have "student" in your duty title.

[Toro]

Or just throw caution to the wind and just go...29B or not

Until you get in an accident. The form is a method of CYA - do you think the same people who have a hard-on for filling it out are not going to torch you if something happens AND you didn't fill out their dipshit form?

[so.it.goes]

Until you get in an accident. The form is a method of CYA - do you think the same people who have a hard-on for filling it out are not going to torch you if something happens AND you didn't fill out their dipshit form?

Better to ask forgiveness?...

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[ThreeHoler]

Better to ask forgiveness?...

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If you're dead and you didn't fill out the paperwork, the CC could do a line of duty determination and your family gets $0.

[so.it.goes]

If you're dead and you didn't fill out the paperwork, the CC could do a line of duty determination and your family gets $0.

Sounds about right for the AF... I do agree it's generally just better to go by the rules, no matter how inconvenient sometimes.

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Edited February 18, 2014 by so.it.goes