Navigator/CSO future

[Left_turn]

Alright, here's the deal.

From your vast experience of just checking out.

[Disco_Nav963]

From your vast experience of just checking out.

Sounds like you two know each other.

[C-130Hoya]

There is absolutely nothing planned by AFPC. It really depends on the speed of the transition. If its a slow but steady stream of J-models coming into my unit then I might be stuck here for another 3 or 4 years waiting to fly the last H-model out of here. If its a massive overhaul (some pilots and loads already have J-model class dates) then hopefully the SQ CCs will do something to help us Navs move along. Hopefully the move will be to another platform vs another H-model base. Id rather not spend the rest of my career running from the J-models. We'll see how it all turns out.

From your vast experience of just checking out.

I also have no idea what this means or who this is....so...

[10percenttruth]

There is absolutely nothing planned by AFPC.

Ever.

For anything.

[bronxbomber252]

There is absolutely nothing planned by AFPC. It really depends on the speed of the transition. If its a slow but steady stream of J-models coming into my unit then I might be stuck here for another 3 or 4 years waiting to fly the last H-model out of here. If its a massive overhaul (some pilots and loads already have J-model class dates) then hopefully the SQ CCs will do something to help us Navs move along. Hopefully the move will be to another platform vs another H-model base. Id rather not spend the rest of my career running from the J-models. We'll see how it all turns out.

I also have no idea what this means or who this is....so...

Come to Rescue, then you can keep flying in a 130, even with the J transition (goes for AFSOC too)

[C-130Hoya]

Thats exactly what I have planned. The commander told me to roll out in the next 12 - 18 mo and Im sitting down and reviewing my ADP with him today. I have AC-130Us, MC-130Js, and U-28s on there. Strike Eagle is a longshot too, but you never know if you dont try. I feel like platforms with CSOs will be a lot more stable for me than platforms with Navs. And while I really like the EWO stuff, I dont really want RJs or any other white jets. We'll see what happens.

[drewpey]

Why only the U-boat? There's also the H, W and J model gunships. Not like the U boat is a dieing platform...but if you want to leave the old-and-busted, you might want to go for the aircraft that are getting the new-and-shiny.

All that being said, between the MC, the AC and the U-28 that's quite a range of missions. What is it that you actually want to do?

[C-130Hoya]

My main reason for staying away from the H-model is the possibility of Cannon. I understand that might become a problem with the 28 and MCJ as well, but Cannon would be bad for the family. Dealing with the AFSOC deployment schedule is hard enough, but leaving my significant other in NM thousands of miles from her family and career would be a fairly selfish thing to do. Im focusing on Herbie for now. We loved Pensacola when we were there for Nav school, and we would not mind having to go back.

[nsplayr]

My main reason for staying away from the H-model is the possibility of Cannon. I understand that might become a problem with the 28 and MCJ as well, but Cannon would be bad for the family.

If you're allergic to Cannon you don't want MC-Js or U-28s on your ADP. FYI Cannon is the first location for MC-Js and U-28s are in the process of moving there now. Honestly trying to join AFSOC and trying to avoid Cannon are kinda mutually exclusive at this point...if you don't want one you don't want the other.

Not that base location should drive your decision...get in the vault, learn about each of those missions, figure out what you want to do, then press.

[C-130Hoya]

Base locations shouldnt be the only driver for your decision, but for people with families it doesnt make any sense to completely ignore location either. On my ADP I put MCJs to Mildenhall and AC-130U Nav and FCO to Herbie. U-28 to Herbie as well. Now I know needs of the AF will determine where I will end up, but Ill be damned if I dont use the location dropdowns on my ADP to full effect. Its all AFSOC to Herbie on my ADP. Someone in my unit just got picked up for U-boats so hopefully I will be too in a year to a year and a half. Im pretty sure H-models are going to stop flying here in about a year or so.

[drewpey]

Could always go back to Pensacola to instruct.

[C-130Hoya]

As a 1LT? Don't know about that. Maybe in a few years, but my job on the herc will disappear sooner than that. I wouldn't mind going back to the schoolhouse eventually though. Unlike most people, I actually liked the program.

[LoadClear]

Unlike most people, I actually liked the program.

Yup, you're alone.

[drewpey]

Thats exactly what I have planned. The commander told me to roll out in the next 12 - 18 mo and Im sitting down and reviewing my ADP with him today. I have AC-130Us, MC-130Js, and U-28s on there. Strike Eagle is a longshot too, but you never know if you dont try. I feel like platforms with CSOs will be a lot more stable for me than platforms with Navs. And while I really like the EWO stuff, I dont really want RJs or any other white jets. We'll see what happens.

My main reason for staying away from the H-model is the possibility of Cannon. I understand that might become a problem with the 28 and MCJ as well, but Cannon would be bad for the family. Dealing with the AFSOC deployment schedule is hard enough, but leaving my significant other in NM thousands of miles from her family and career would be a fairly selfish thing to do. Im focusing on Herbie for now. We loved Pensacola when we were there for Nav school, and we would not mind having to go back.

Base locations shouldnt be the only driver for your decision, but for people with families it doesnt make any sense to completely ignore location either. On my ADP I put MCJs to Mildenhall and AC-130U Nav and FCO to Herbie. U-28 to Herbie as well. Now I know needs of the AF will determine where I will end up, but Ill be damned if I dont use the location dropdowns on my ADP to full effect. Its all AFSOC to Herbie on my ADP. Someone in my unit just got picked up for U-boats so hopefully I will be too in a year to a year and a half. Im pretty sure H-models are going to stop flying here in about a year or so.

As a 1LT? Don't know about that. Maybe in a few years, but my job on the herc will disappear sooner than that. I wouldn't mind going back to the schoolhouse eventually though. Unlike most people, I actually liked the program.

So a 1Lt in a dieing airframe, who wasn't able to get what he wanted out of UNT the first time around wants to transfer to a better job, but only if they give him a good location. Please tell me you didn't pitch that one to your commander.

Here's the thing...there are probably 50 other guys in your position (hell, even more than that), with more experience who go to their commanders and are saying phrases commanders want to hear, like "Sir, I want to go to AFSOC, and I'm willing to go to any location to do so", or "Sir, I really want to vaporize terrorists, send me to ANY gunship available" etc. You aren't in any position to try to bargain or cherry pick anything. As a 1Lt you should have no stipulations.

Why did you go slicks in the first place? Was it by choice or were you last in your class? If it was by choice, then you should have researched it better and seen the writing on the wall. If you weren't in a position to choose an aircraft you desired out of UNT, then you probably don't have any business in AFSOC. Either way, until you have a massive attitude change, I recommend employment elsewhere.

[discus]

Good words.

What he said. If you are stipulating locations, you are not ready to handle AFSOC.

[C-130Hoya]

Wow everyone needs to take it down a notch here. Im not "stipulating" anything. I don't think anyone in the military expects to be able to dictate where he or she will go. If the AF tells me tomorrow that Im going to go to the new U-28 sq being stood up at Cannon, am I really going to refuse? Of course not. Ive been trained by the same military you have--please dont think I have so little officership that Ill shout and stomp till the AF gives me what I want. But just because Im using the appropriate channels (the ADP, my SQCC) to tell the appropriate people (AFPC), what I would PREFER to do with my career, doesnt mean Im spoiled or cant hack it in AFSOC.

And btw, there are still people going through the KLRF pipeline that chose the -130 well after I did, so please dont make it seem like I was either forced into the -130 or that I wandered on to it not knowing what was going on. J-models werent a problem until they became a problem, and the instructors at NAS who were my best source of information on the Herc were all over the moon about the H. I love the Herc. I chose to be here. I am sad to have to leave. Just because my job is going away though doesnt mean I sit here and mope and hope the AF puts me somewhere nice. My #1 priority right now is to be the best NAV I can be while I can still fly in this plane. Ive already volunteered for a deployment in September. I have already become very involved in my SQ and the local community. So please, before you feel the need to pass down judgement regarding where I can and cannot hack it, maybe think about the fact that Im just a young guy looking for advice. Squelch the patronizing tone, and help if you can; move on otherwise.

Edited April 19, 2013 by C-130Hoya

[drewpey]

Im just a young guy looking for advice.

I'm trying to give you my advice, but you are taking it as a personal attack.

The only topic you've started here was about transferring out of the C-130, and you opened it before you even started at little rock. If you went slicks by choice...you had quite a quick change of heart. I went through UNT many years before you and I saw the writing on the wall then...it's not like the J model surprised us all.

I've seen one or two people transfer into AFSOC, and I will say the people who are eaten up about the mission before they transfer generally do well. Other people who finagle an assignment into our community for location, joint spouse, units being closed or other non-mission related reasons tend to not do well. Sorry if I'm being defensive, but with slicks winding down there's been a trend of AMC sloughing some of their worst to AFSOC and hording their best, and we've suffered heavily for it. From reading your posts your motivations to go to AFSOC tend to be non-mission related. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you need to have a brutally honest look at yourself and assess what your motivations are. Going AFSOC and then shortly thereafter realizing you don't like it (like you did with slicks) is only going to waste everyone's time. It's best for everyone if you slow down on this decision and make it right.

Edited April 19, 2013 by drewpey

[C-130Hoya]

Hard not to take it as a personal attack when you suggest that I'm in the plane I'm in because I supposedly graduated last in my class, but that's neither here nor there. I AM excited about the AFSOC mission, but that's never been the topic of discussion. To be honest, I wasn't happy with my drop out of Pensacola, but I have loved every minute of the Herc since. The community is fantastic and I'm loving my current base. If I could stay here I would. But I can't, and that's not my choice to make anymore. As such, I'm trying to get to another mission I can really sink my teeth into. Additionally, my family wasn't on board with AFSOC coming out of Pensacola, but a lot has changed since then, and they are fully on board now. I have spoken with all my friends in AFSOC right now, and they are loving the missions and getting along just fine with the rough deployment schedule, which is exactly what I wanted to hear. I feel like I'm getting an early opportunity to broaden my career in the AF because of this J model thing. If after all I've said you think that I'm just being selfish and opportunistic, then that's your business.

I feel like this thread was supposed to be about the future of CSOs and has somehow become about my future, as such I give it back to the op: As far as I've seen, the CSO concept is working, and while cross flow between platforms can hardly be called fluid, AFPC is genuinely making a distinction between Randolph grads and NAS grads when coming up with assignments, ESPECIALLY when it comes to AFSOC/strike crossovers.

[Left_turn]

Heard someone say they were planning on bringing back the tracked syllabi for Pensacola CSO's? Something about needing more specialized training? Is there any truth in that or just wishing?

If it is true it kind of debunks the "one CSO to rule all the jobs" idea.

Anybody tracking on that?

[C-130Hoya]

They've been going back and forth on that. The whole reason the entire Nav program moved to NAS was to be a joint training program with the Navy. That has completely fallen apart due to the fact that the Navy isn't as crazy about graduating X students every D days. A lot of FTUs are upset cause CSOs are turning out to be jacks of all trades and masters of none, so they've been thinking about going back to the previous tracked model where only strikers go to NAS, but I don't know if they'll switch back so soon. After all, the career field is only about 2 years old. To be honest, I like being a CSO, and my FTU figured out the benefits of CSOs pretty quickly. I don't know if the EWO community is as happy though.

[olevelo]

Ignore drewpey...the AFSOC brainwashing does a decent job of turning a lot of good folks into complete douches. As a complete generality they have a "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. Not a personal attack on anyone in AFSOC, as I have a lot of buddies both who are converts and guys I've met through testing. It's a top down thing that permeates from the leadership. I understand why, as they are focused on getting the mission accomplished, and it's a very different type of mission than what folks from the slick world are used to. But everything is mission, mission, mission, with pretty much zero emphasis on family or anything that gets in the way of the mission (including test). Again, this the perspective of someone only on the fringe of the community.

Back on topic, if you like the herk, want to stay employed and avoid Cannon, look into the HC-130J. As a nav that goes back and forth between slicks and J's, I love the J. Right now the HC is exactly the same as the MC (until AFSOC gets TF and other goodies), still get to do LL, airdrop, add air refueling, while being stationed at either DM, Moody or Kirtland. The only guys I know are the operational test and schoolhouse guys, but from what I've seen, they're a lot more laid back and all love doing rescue.

Your other option is go to one of the TFI slick units. I don't see those going away anytime soon.

[Skitzo]

Ignore drewpey...the AFSOC brainwashing does a decent job of turning a lot of good folks into complete douches. As a complete generality they have a "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. Not a personal attack on anyone in AFSOC, as I have a lot of buddies both who are converts and guys I've met through testing. It's a top down thing that permeates from the leadership. I understand why, as they are focused on getting the mission accomplished, and it's a very different type of mission than what folks from the slick world are used to. But everything is mission, mission, mission, with pretty much zero emphasis on family or anything that gets in the way of the mission (including test). Again, this the perspective of someone only on the fringe of the community..

Holy crap best assessment ever. Coming from ACC to AFSOC this is very much the mindset.

[Disco_Nav963]

I feel like this thread was supposed to be about the future of CSOs and has somehow become about my future, as such I give it back to the op: As far as I've seen, the CSO concept is working, and while cross flow between platforms can hardly be called fluid, AFPC is genuinely making a distinction between Randolph grads and NAS grads when coming up with assignments, ESPECIALLY when it comes to AFSOC/strike crossovers.

I call bullshit. In my prior life as a 12R, I saw multiple panel navs crossflow to ACs, MCs, and U-28s. As a 12B, both of the other crossflow dudes I knew (one RC-135 EWO and 1 KC-135/slick C-130 nav) were Randolph grads. My initial qual class had a mix of Randolph studs and Pensacola "strike nav" studs—the very best and very worst brand new dudes were both PCola grads and the Randolph and PCola dudes were interspersed evenly in between. The most awkward, low-SA dude I've seen in my community was also a PCola "strike nav" guy. The true CSOs I've seen are a mixed bag. The only noticeable skill gaps I've seen is that some of them don't know how to use a Whiz Wheel. None of them stand out as an improvement over the Randolph product. Perhaps if we were trying to dual qual Navs and EWs the differences would shine through--maybe not.

I would be very surprised if AFPC, where the functionals that happen to be "CSOs" are all grads of the tracked programs, were looking at CSOs and Randolph/PCola "strike nav" grads as truly different breeds for assignment purposes versus doing what they've always done, which is react to the latest manning trends with no long term planning. If manning in community A is low and in community B it is high, members of community B might get a chance to crossflow to community A. If manning in community C is low, they are probably not going to get a shot to crossflow to community A. It's that simple.

[C-130Hoya]

What I know is that Randolph guys trying to go from AMC to ACC are being blocked because they arent considered "CSOs". Not really sure why, but that's what's going on right now.

[LoadClear]

PCola isnt headed towards the traditional "tracked" syllabus like it was at Randolph. They are planning on doing a top off program. A couple weeks before you graduate, all graded material is done and graduation is assured but you pair off after your drop according to your airframe. If you're headed to 130s, you're going to be doing enroute navigation, using your wiz wheel, etc. EWO? Beeps and squeaks for a few weeks. Strike? Playing video games.