Military rank structure

[busdriver]

I had a problem with sirs and ma'ams for a long time, maybe still do. But never saluting. In my mind a salute is just the way military members recognize and respect each other, we just have some goofy rules as so who initiates the process. So while the airman may have to salute me first, I have to salute back, it's a two way street.

[Guest Boom]

Does AF not have the 1 bar rule(Warrants included). Well, in the USMC as long as you are a one bar, you are all dudes and gals. No one cares whether you are a 1stLt or 2ndLt. In fact try and pull that one on someone and see how loud they will laugh at you. This is not to say you are being disrespectful, but no one is making an issue. Had a guy ones call up to my shop and introduces himself as 1stLt. blah, I laughed at him over the phone. The next time he called, he kept is short Lt. blah. The warrants would not really call you Sir, until you pick Capt.

Chill out dude, you probably only got commissioned a few months before the guy and now you are giving him hell for nothing. You are both still Lt's and who really gives a crap.

Don't get me wrong, I give the proper greeting of the day at all times. I will even return a salute to even the newest private. But check this out, had an E-9 walk pass a Captain at a DFAC at one of the middle eastern locations. Captain stop E-9 and asked him if he missed something, E-9 played a fool. Before the 0-3 continued with the conversation, put the E-9 in parade rest!! Trust me, you let shit that thing fly and they think they can walk all over you.

As a young guy checking-in into a new unit, you kind of have to be assertive, you cannot be timid like the ROTC kid that you are. They see that sh!t the moment you walk in and you are done. Yes, you can be assertive without being an a$$. Because you are the new guy and don't know shit does not give an E-8 the right to walk all over you. And trust me, if he was worth anything he will not hesitate the respect your billet and rank.

Cave out

I find that hard to believe considering how strict the USMC is about rank. I've seen Lance Corporals in the USMC chew out PFC's for not respecting them. I mean you guys don't even abbreviate rank when using it while talking.

I had a problem with sirs and ma'ams for a long time, maybe still do. But never saluting. In my mind a salute is just the way military members recognize and respect each other, we just have some goofy rules as so who initiates the process. So while the airman may have to salute me first, I have to salute back, it's a two way street.

Don't use Sir's and Ma'ams. I don't.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

With everything, the unit you are with dictates. As you know there is nothing laid-back about the grunts. E-3 will put E-2 on front-leaning rest! or ask him to fill sandbags(maybe). In the grunt land, they have to be an a$$ basically. You cannot have kids talking back and failing to obey orders. So to prevent that, everyone is kept in check from day uno.

Like I said earlier, 0-1 will respect 0-2 but not raise hell because he did not salute. Offcourse you have your ones and twoses that will demand it. Give it to him and carry on. Now say I had an 0-2 as my CO( Company Commander) and I was an 0-1 as a Platoon Commander offcourse I will respect him/her and give salute, especially infront of the troops(formation).

Everyone kinda figures it out. You will know when you should and when it does not matter. It is one of those un-written rules. The FNG kinda figures it out.

[Guest Cap-10]

In some squadrons, we had an un-official "plus 1" rule....if the guy was one rank above you, it was OK to call him by his callsign...more than one rank, it was Sir or Rank/Last name.

As already stated, whether you like it or not, a 2Lt is required to salute a 1Lt, and if you do it every time, you will never be wrong.

Once the superior officer gives you the "Knock off the saluting" or he says "Dude, call me (callsign)" then you are cleared in hot.

I will caveat that with "know your surroundings"...if the enlisted troops are around, it would proably be best to salute anyway.

You want your actions to speak louder than your words.

Cap-10

[slacker]

Rank among LTs is like virtue among whores.

[JarheadBoom]

I find that hard to believe considering how strict the USMC is about rank. I've seen Lance Corporals in the USMC chew out PFC's for not respecting them. I mean you guys don't even abbreviate rank when using it while talking.

The "rules" are a little different for Marine officers.

This important little fact was explained to me, in a lengthy one-way conversation, by a mightily-pissed-off Marine Major. 'Bout midway through a CAX (Combined Arms Exercise) at MCB Twentynine Palms in August, the E's of the maintenance department (I was one of them) were given a direct order to address each other by rank and last name ONLY, regardless of rank. No nicknames, no first names, no "Hey fucko! Get over here!"... but not 5 minutes after the order was given I heard the very same Major address one of his Captains by "Mike". So I called him out on it (with NO tact whatsoever - I don't think I said "sir" at all) at the afternoon maintenance meeting. Yeah... bad decision. I got the ass-chewing I rightly deserved, but no good explanation of why it was OK for him to ORDER us to use rank & last name ONLY, but at the same time it was OK for he and his fellow officers to first-name each other.... other than "the rules are different for Marine officers."

This was almost 10 years ago, and I'm still not sure how I escaped being charged with disrespecting a commissioned officer...

[bfargin]

I'm with Huggy on this one. I can't see how anybody would be bothered by saluting a higher ranking officer. I wouldn't care if it was my best buddy if he had higher rank I'd salute him and say hello. No pain on my part and follows the rules and everyone is happy. When I was in I saluted 1st Lts all the time as a butter bar and never thought anything about it (mostly at UPT and FTU but still). It's a custom/courtesy that shows proper respect and offers a polite greeting.

Of course I was clueless at times as well. I was standing in base ops at Shaw AFB one day (I was on a Tweet X-country) when a 2 star walks into the building and I see him and nod hello as I offer a smiling "good morning sir" thankfully the more SA SSgt behind the desk sees him and calls the building to attention. Talk about feeling like a complete moron!!!!

[zrooster99]

Disagree all you want, ZRooster, but military tradition shoudn't go the way of "hey dude, yo,..." It's not YOUR call to decide whether YOU will comply with the tradition or not. And the tradition is that you salute officers senior to you.

BACK when I was a 1Lt , I felt that the tradition was LTs didn't salute each other. We've all heard it, rank among LTs is like... I wonder what you're background is that you developed this opinion. I think you're talking in terms of the LETTER of the law, not the TRADITION that has been in place over at least the last 50 years. (yes I know that Back when you were a 1Lt was longer ago than it was for me, but it was long enough in my case)

I was commissioned through ROTC at the University of Texas.

Yeah, funny, I'm the USAFA grad. Not exactly a liberal school. I hear what you're saying to a certain extent, I do think the erosion of customs and courtesies is somewhat tragic, but I was always taught, even by my hard assed retired Army Maj Vietnam vet Dad, that rank among LTs is like the proverbial prostitute virtue...

John Levitow died a few years ago

Yes (sigh). I understand that the POINT of a military salute is to express a greeting of respect. REQUIRED, by the way, in the case of a MOH winner. And, yes (sigh) I've heard of Levitow. I've even heard of all the OTHER AF MOH winners from Vietnam that you hardly ever seem to hear about. But that's not really relevant to the discussion. I've even saluted enlisted folks that did not hold the medal, and meant it. Under some circumstances I would have saluted a 1Lt even, but not as a rule. At this point in my life, I salute Majs who I know to have just pinned on even though I know I'm only a few months from pinning myself. I even call some of them "Sir" depending on the circumstances. I think they call it judgment. A rare commodity in this day and age, but a quality I'm pretty sure an officer is paid to exercise.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

still not sure how I escaped being charged with disrespecting a commissioned officer...

You were in the Airwing. You think that would have gone well in the land of your grunt brothers? Me think not

SWING with the WING !

Enough of the Marine talk. Airforce don't like it.

[Guest thefranchise]

A good O-1 would salute an O-2 and not blink an eye. If you have to actually think about it before you pass by and contemplate whether you should salute or not, odds are you should probably salute.

As far as what it means in the scheme of things.....somewhere between jack and sh.. and jack left town.

[zmoney]

I don't know what air force some of these folks are in, but I'm not sure I'm in the same one... As far as flyers go, I have never once seen an O-1 salute an O-2 unless its a formal (ie UPT brief time) situation. This O-1 saluting an O-2 crap sounds alot like some ASBC kool-aid to me.

LPA all the way.

[Tone deaf]

I, for one, did not say a word if I wasn't saluted by an O-1, when I was an O-2.

Me either, because I did not deserve or expect it. Huggy, I know what you meant and got your O-1's and O-2's reversed

My own experience, during tech school with an Annapolis-trained cross-commissioning type dude who I outranked by a number of days (we were both 2Lts and on day 1 the school published a class roster by date of rank):

Me: Hi, My name is XXXX

Him: Nice to meet you sir, my name is YYYY.

Me: My name is XXXX, PLEASE don't call me sir.

Him: Yes sir!

WTF? :bash:

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

I always hated this exception. It's a case where 'relaxing' a rule only creates confusion.

Also, if you're an O-1 crossing paths with an O-2 from a sister service, POP IT UP, NO EXCEPTIONS. Especially if you're on one of their installations.

If you guys have a problem with basic military customs and courtesies, then perhaps you shouldn't be in the military...

[Guest Cap-10]

I don't know what air force some of these folks are in, but I'm not sure I'm in the same one... As far as flyers go, I have never once seen an O-1 salute an O-2 unless its a formal (ie UPT brief time) situation. This O-1 saluting an O-2 crap sounds alot like some ASBC kool-aid to me.

LPA all the way.

And the truth will set you free......you said "flyers".

When I was a Lt back in my first flying squadron, none of the 2Lt's saluted the 1Lt's because that was how our squdaron did it (as did many others). But you can bet your arse that if 2Lt Cap-10 walked by a 1Lt non-flyer I would salute them. If I didn't, 1Lt non-flyer (or even flyer from another squadron) would be well within their means to b!tch me out for lack of customs and courtesies. I would then smartly, followed by a "Yes Sir!" and go about my business. Would I consider them a douche? You bet! But they would be a douch that was in the right. This is a volunteer AF, and no-one put a gun to my cranium and forced me to sign up. I knew the rules when I joined, so 2Lt Cap-10 would have shut up and colored.

Cap-10

[zmoney]

Do late-rated student pilot Captains get saluted by their FAIPs at the start of each tabletop brief?

Not in T-1s at Vance. If I remember correctly, they did in T-6s. I might be wrong about that.

[The Kayla]

Do late-rated student pilot Captains get saluted by their FAIPs at the start of each tabletop brief?

I doubt it. My Husband's class had 4 Captains, and once you were in the flight room, they called the IPs/FAIPS "sir/ma'am" no matter if they (The Capt.) out ranked the IP/FAIP. Outside though, the IP/FAIP would salute the Capt.

Edited September 5, 2008 by The Kayla

[usaf36031]

I doubt it. My Husband's class had 4 Captains, and once you were in the flight room, they called the IPs/FAIPS "sir/ma'am" no matter if they (The Capt.) out ranked the IP/FAIP. Outside though, the IP/FAIP would salute the Capt.

I've always found it interesting how the rank hierarchy is adjusted for training purposes. It's always fun to watch those BUDs training shows on the military channel where the O-3s get their shit wrecked by all of the instructors who are chief petty officers

"Dammit!, Why are you such a worthless douchbag!?!...sir?"

[MD]

Some of the worst officers when it comes to the rank thing is the Army; they consider rank within ranks, ie which captain is senior to which captain. Ran into this as an ALO during an exercise. Prior to the exercise, I'm to check in at the Batallion TOC. Looking at the TO&E for the unit I was supporting, I see that the FSO (not Flight Safety....Fire Support. my ground support counterpart to my being the air support guy) is some Capt who's name I can't remember, but for the sake of the story will call Jim Jones. Showing up at the TOC much later, I see among the many people there a guy in BDUs talking to what appear to be Arty FOs. He has Captain rank on one collar, crossed arty tubes on another, one nametape that says "US Army" and another that "Jones".....hmmm, must be the guy. I go up to him when as he's reviewing some paperwork by himself and address him by his first and last name, introducing me by my first and last name and who I am....a common greeting among those of the same rank, or with any semblance of civility. He, annoyingly acknowleges me, then proceeds to tell me how "umm, yeah, that's Captain Jones, Captain. We use rank and surname around here, I suggest you do to." Fine, ###### you very much too. Later that evening during chow, amongst conversation he inquires how I got my commission and what my date of rank was. I answered something to the effect of "OTS, and date of rank?....######ing Tuesday, I don't know...don't really care for our purposes here...I'm here to provide you air support, not play Hitler youth academy." Needless to say, our working relationship was business at best....which is fine, he was a nitwit anyway.

[busdriver]

The whole rank thing is mostly a tradition game to me. For whatever reason I played the salute side of the game as I mentioned. As to the Sir thing, well I first met one guy as a captain, me an LT. I called him by his first name for a couple years till he made major, suddenly he railed me for not calling him Major XXXX. Another guy I met as a major, but everyone called him by his first name, the same as mine. Obviously two guys named Bob had a running joke that went something like:

Him in a manner of greeting: "Bob"

Me: "Bob"

I got chewed out by a different officer about calling a major Bob, while I was an LT. After the ass chewing, he talked to me and said something to the effect of, don't worry about it, I'm cool with everyone calling me Bob, you guys do what I tell you, jump when I say jump, so what you call me doesn't matter. I learned some important things from all that. Respect someone's leadership position above rank. Know your audience. When you're the higher ranking SOB, don't take shit so damn seriously, Sir/Ma'am doesn't equal respect and if you're a good leader you'll recognize when your people are following versus appeasing you. I also learned through some other interactions that it's a slippery slope. If you get lax with some people who are good shit, it makes the shit heads think they can take the same liberties. Use your relaxation with caution, it may come back to bite you in the ass.

[zrooster99]

If I didn't, 1Lt non-flyer (or even flyer from another squadron) would be well within their means to b!tch me out for lack of customs and courtesies.

I was a 2Lt, 1Lt and Capt as a non-flyer. 2Lts didn't salute 1Lts, nor did they call them "sir" in any of the MX organizations I was in. My wife, an LRO, and I dare say a good bit more ate-up than I am (sts) says the same goes in here career field. My brother's in Security Forces, easily the most ate-up careerfields in the AF where customs and courtesies are concerned, and excpet for one DB he worked with, the same is true in his career field.

if you don't want to be a DB get out of the military

I paraphrased. I'm sorry, but not everyone in the military can be a DB. Strangely, I find that many non-DB officers manage to serve well AND contribute a lot to the force.

[Toro]

Do late-rated student pilot Captains get saluted by their FAIPs at the start of each tabletop brief?

Negative. They actually made the Captain students salute the FAIP Lts when I was there. Kind of stupid, but it's a formality.

[Guest Boom]

Negative. They actually made the Captain students salute the FAIP Lts when I was there. Kind of stupid, but it's a formality.

I've always wondered what the point of that was?

[Guest AFlyer55]

I've always wondered what the point of that was?

Formal recognition of authority in the flight room, I suppose (aka, Student Harassment Program). It is still this way. During Phase II about six months ago, we had a brand-new FAIP in our who had managed to start UPT immediately after commissioning out of OTS. Long story short, he ended up as a Mission-Qual'd FAIP as a 2Lt. You think it's weird seeing a Capt salute a 1Lt? How about our SRO saluting this guy in the flight room. That's the training environment for you ...

Edited September 7, 2008 by AFlyer55

[SocialD]

Negative. They actually made the Captain students salute the FAIP Lts when I was there. Kind of stupid, but it's a formality.

Do all other UPT bases do this? Only time we saluted our IP's is before the morning formal brief, never before a brief to fly.

As far as saluting 1Lt's, my rules are 1.) Salute anyone not rated 2.) Any O-2 of another service.

[zmoney]

Not in T-1s at Vance. If I remember correctly, they did in T-6s. I might be wrong about that.

Read the post wrong... Students never get saluted by IPs in the flight room. Outside the flight room, that's a different story. As for students saluting IPs, depends on the squadron whether or not a higher ranking student salutes a lower ranking IP.