Scott O'grady

[Guest MEH9030]

I just finished Scott O'Grady's book Return With Honor, and wanted gain some perspective. I've heard two conflicting stories. One, makes it sound like he made some mistakes and sort of screwed the pooch. The other makes it sound as though the missile was a complete surprise to both O'Grady and his flgiht lead, and fate wasn't on his side that day. Any thoughts, especially from the more senior folks out there who were active when all this occurred??

[ 25. April 2004, 14:54: Message edited by: MEH9030 ]

[M2]

I know the story of "Hoover" or "Zulu" O'Grady's shootdown pretty well, but I am not sure what parts of it are unclassified to discuss here. Do you have a SIPRNET email address?

I had just arrived at USAFE when it happened, and was staying with an old bud who happened to be the chief of air/air defence. I would suspect there is a lot on his story on the Internet, I am just not that interested to find out. Oddly enough, they just found the remains of his Viper a few years ago (it was in Airman magazine) and I believe "Wilbur" Wright, a.k.a. BASHER 51 that day (O'Grady's lead) is now an O-6 at Ramstein...

Cheers! M2

[ 25. April 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: MajorMadMax ]

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

This was copied from the SPN:

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Opinions about Scott O'Grady are like assholes, and you know that saying. I don't have any problem with what he did in the aircraft or on the ground. This isn't the place to be talking about threat reacting or our systems that tell us when to react, so I won't get into tactics. Basically he got shot down, leave it at that.

One thing he gets bagged on for is pulling the manual seat release handle above 20,000' MSL. Is that a bad thing, YES, if terrain is at sea level, that will give you over a 20 minute chute ride at 1000' per minute descent. HOWEVER, if you just got shot down, cloud deck below you, and things are now very loud and windy, you may not be able to see, do you trust your seat? Gut check. I don't know what I would do, but remember that the seat doesn't separate at 14,000' AGL, it uses barometric altitude. So, if the mountains in Bosnia were say, 8,000', did he do the right thing pulling at 12,000' AGL???

The next thing he was bagged on for was the initial moves once hitting the ground. He mentioned steering away from a gathering of farmers, etc. that he saw on the ground where he planned on landing, so he had some type of SA that he needed to get moving. When we land, we are supposed to grab our "hit and run" kit and get moving, with some other stuff like making sure beacon is off, etc. Well, he grabbed the wrong damn kit. Sounds like a dumb *** to me, but wait! In our seat kits we have the "hit and run" kit and another kit that is kind of like a back pack. Both kits look the same, but one is zipped to the kit and the other isn't. So which one do you grab? Hell if I know, last I was told the "hit and run" kit isn't really the "hit and run" kit and we should grab the other kit!! What the F@ck?? Another thing, a lot of guys have never seen a cold weather seat kit. A seat kit in North Carolina is packed a lot different than a kit from Alaska or Aviano, Italy. There is a lot of shit in there!!!

So, did he do the wrong thing? One thing he did do wrong was not properly utilize the water that they gave him in his seat. We were taught to sit in a non-threatening position when the PJ's come get you, but put yourself in his shoes, this is day #6 with minimal food and water, no contact until that day, your mind may be drifting a little. I find it hard to believe that he would believe everything that the SERE instructors taught him probably 5-7 years prior to this event.

I do think he is a jack *** for writing books and doing public appearances for money. Our job in the military isn't to be a hero of anything. We volunteer for this profession knowing that we may die or become a prisoner doing it. For him to be capitalizing off being a tactical jackass is mind blowing to me. I'd like to kick him in the nuts for being a bad officer, not for what happened on the ground.

Just my opinion!!!!!

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[HerkDerka]

I can't tell you much about his shoot down. But when it comes to his evasion techniques, he did pretty much everything wrong. He's lucky that the Marine crew chief didn't shoot his ***.

PD

[Toro]

Originally posted by C-21 Pilot:

Another thing, a lot of guys have never seen a cold weather seat kit. A seat kit in North Carolina is packed a lot different than a kit from Alaska or Aviano, Italy. There is a lot of shit in there!!!

Every time you deploy you should get a SERE briefing with respect to the area you will be in. Both times I´ve been to the desert we got them. Included were escape and evasion techniques for that particular area and life support briefings...what´s in your equipment. In addition to that, I actually went through my survival kit and vest to see what was in there and where.

To this day, O´Grady is used by survival instructors as an example of what not to do in an E&E situation. I can understand not remembering some stuff you learned many years before, but running towards a bunch of Marines with your gun drawn is just stupid.

[HerkDerka]

Not to mention using his survival radio incorrectly.

PD

[Guest Metalhead]

Sound's like everybody has a similiar asshole here. I mean opinion sorry. Me included. I always thought is was kinda stupid to get out of the AF after you live through an ejection. And I'm the biggest proponent of getting out. Word on the street is you are virtually guaranteed 3 promotions. Anybody know any thing about that? Maybe he thought he could make more money off the book.

[Guest thebronze]

Did he even get out on his own accord, or maybe something else...

It seems a little strange that a "hero" like him would decide to get out after all of that "glory"...

When I went through survival in '98, they really didn't talk about him too much at all. They talked about him a few times (specific survival things) but really didn't bag on him like I'd been led to believe.

Who the hell knows...

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Metalhead:

Word on the street is you are virtually guaranteed 3 promotions. Anybody know any thing about that? Maybe he thought he could make more money off the book.

More like the AF and the AFRES didn't want him. He wasn't exactly what you'd call a gifted fighter pilot. You should hear the stories from some of the people who flew with him. 800 hours and still a wingman...sheesh.

[HerkDerka]

When I was at survival back in January, the SERE guys bagged (STS) on him like crazy. Even in the field they would preface lessons by saying:

"This is the way you are supposed to do it and this his is that way Scott O'Grady did it. Don't do it the way O'Grady did it!"

PD

[Guest mfont]

For those of you are interested, there is a transcript on GWB's website featuring retired Capt. Scott O'Grady and his support for the war in Iraq, as well as the war on terror.

https://www.georgewbush.com/Chat/transcript.aspx?ID=16

[Guest Ragansundowner]

I'd be curious to hear from people actually in the know, but behind closed doors wasn't Scott O'Grady's shoot down considered a major mistake on his part with many of his screw-ups leading to the eventual loss of the aircraft? I could be completely wrong, but that is what I had heard through the grapevine. Can someone shed some light on this subject?

[Guest ecutch]

Scott O'Grady screwed up...royally. His ineptitude is too long and distinguished to go into too much detail.

[Hacker]

Nobody on active duty gives a crap what Zulu says. 800-hour wingmen...sheesh.

[Stiffler]

Ya its his fault he got shot down. He fired the missle. Then allowed himself to get hit.

Give him some credit. He survived a shoot down, and never played himself up to be a hero.

[M2]

Ragansundowner

I just got to USAFE when this happened, and was staying with a bud from college who happened to be the chief of air/air defense at the IN. We discussed it in great detail, and where many feel O'Grady is an idiot (and have good reason to do so), he didn't do anything wrong the day he was shot down. Sorry I can't go into detail, but he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now, many of his subsequent actions during his E&E time are a different story...as are many of his actions before the incident.

However, 2BKC135Pilot, I gotta disagree, O'Grady played it up afterward with the book where he snuffed the title (there was already a book with that title by Medal Of Honor Recipient Colonel George E. “Bud” Day) to his appearance as a Miss America judge. O'Grady was no hero, the only *** he saved was his own, and he did a pretty bad job of it as well. However, the US had to put a spin on the fact that a B-Serb SA-6 crew had knocked down a US airplane, hence the media reporting. I recall someone from the Triple Nickle saying afterward it was time for O'Grady to go home. Luckily Zulu has faded into obscurity.

By the way, I believe Wilbur Wright is an O-6 at Ramstein now, can anyone confirm?

However,

[M2]

By the way, WTFO is with this "retired" shit and O'Grady?!? He only served 12 years, and I don't recall him ever having sustained any injuries that would have qualified him to a medical retirement. Is his "legacy" of buffoonery still haunting us?

Cheers! M2

[Hacker]

Originally posted by ToBeKC135Pilot:

Give him some credit. He survived a shoot down, and never played himself up to be a hero.

He had a legacy of buffoonery completey outside the shootdown incident that is fairly well documented.

My favorite is the HUD video from his flight lead -- who is in the process of shooting down Super Galebs -- where Zulu flies right though the HUD while blind.

So, ToBeKC135Pilot, be careful of your own enthusiasm for his "success" because it seems to be based on media instead of reality. You'll see a completey different side of things once you go to land survival at Fairchild.

[LJDRVR]

Hey speaking of "where are they now", whatever happened to that prevaricating sack of human excrement, Kelly Flinn? (If you ever need to vomit, read her book: "Proud to be")

[Hacker]

Someone in my squadron saw her very recently...still flying for ASA and apparently sporting a new last name.

[LJDRVR]

Originally posted by Hacker:

Someone in my squadron saw her very recently...still flying for ASA and apparently sporting a new last name.

Unbelievable. I wonder if the folks flying with her realize what they've got there. My inner dialogue as a Captain would go something like: "She says she did the walkaround, but.....did she?"

What blows my mind is that an airline would hire somebody with a general discharge.

We've all been young and done something stupid, but to see someone throw away a promising career needlessly by lying and then ignoring a lawful orderfrom her commander is sad. Whats worse and in my mind inexcusable, is when that person claims they didn't know any better and that the Air Force was out to get them.

[Guest deweygcc]

Having spoken at length with one of zulu squadron mates ( i don't say BUDDY) and there was a continued concern that he made it through UPT.

O'Grady almost got a LOT of people killed because he didnt do the SIMPLE things every one is told 1000X. THat and some of the stuff he did one would actually HAVE to THINK about to do wrong.

Then he went public, THANK GOD.

HEARSAY I heard from someone that went to his church or something that he was glad to be out. I think he had realized he was in over his head. AGAIN HEARSAY

[Guest ELan]

O'Grady's case will be talked about forever on how not to be a complete idiot and it applies to all airframes. Some of the info surrounding why he is an idiot is still classified secret to my knowledge, so if you are aircrew, you will be privied to that info in your training.

KC135tobe...this is one of your buddies...you should get the details sometime in the future...

[HercDude]

So, ToBeKC135Pilot, be careful of your own enthusiasm for his "success" because it seems to be based on media instead of reality. You'll see a completey different side of things once you go to land survival at Fairchild.

Aside from his decision to be John Wayne and run to the chopper with his M9 drawn (and according to his interview on the History Channel he was holding it by the barrel), I don't recall much criticizm of his survival tactics. He was on the ground for 6(?) days with people constantly looking for him, yet was able to get in touch with friendlies and eventually got his butt out of enemy territory.

I know nothing about his flying ability (other than people constantly telling me that only the best pilots can get to an AD Viper unit), but it seems like he was compitent enough to escape a situation that would have left a lot of guys behing bars.

I do agree though that he played up his 15 minutes more than anyone in the military should. The F-117 driver (Vega XX) shot down over Serbia had the same opportunity, yet who's heard of his name? If you want to be famous, become an astronaut, otherwise you're in the wrong profession, IMHO.

[Gravedigger]

INDEED!