Military use of CAT III ILS

[Steve Davies]

Please forgive this IFR civvy flyer's ignorance, but given that military aircraft must be able to operate no matter how bad the weather, how come Ramstein has become the first DoD airbase to install a CAT III ILS? (Ramstein's ILS)

Does the use of a PAR service at military airfields make ILS, whether CAT I, II or III, redundant?

[ 04. January 2007, 22:38: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Guest nunya]

$$$. It's expensive to install them and flight test them and maintain them, and for what? Once they're installed, who's going to fly it? Ramstein residents sure don't have any autoland capability. Can any AF jet fly CAT III? Buddha? Maybe the 89th?

A PAR and ILS to the same runway is of course redundant. I think we have them both to train the controllers so they can provide PARs elsewhere and pilots to fly PARs where there's no ILS. I think there's a field or two in the AOR with a PAR and no ILS.

[ 30. December 2006, 07:36: Message edited by: nunya ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Steve Davies:

Does the use of a PAR service at military airfields make ILS, whether CAT I, II or III, redundant?

No.

"This is a phenomenal capability for Ramstein, the Air Force and the Department of Defense," said Lt. Col. Marty Winkler, 86th Operations Support Squadron director of operations. "Ramstein is the first airfield in the DoD to implement a CAT III ILS, making Ramstein the most capable airfield in the DoD."

Hyperbole.

[Guest TheBurt]

CAT II and III ops require special aircraft equip as well as airfield equipment and lighting. Equipping the aircraft would be the biggest problem............. and that problem involves buckets full of money........... we can fix anything with a big pot of money. I would say 100% of all the contract aircraft that fly into say Ramstein (ATA, Atlas, Kuletta, World etc.) are Cat IIIa or better equipped, so the Cat III approach is probably for them and not the military aircraft........... just an educated guess.

[Guest TheBurt]

Originally posted by nunya:

$$$. It's expensive to install them and flight test them and maintain them, and for what? Once they're installed, who's going to fly it? Ramstein residents sure don't have any autoland capability. Can any AF jet fly CAT III? Buddha? Maybe the 89th?

A PAR and ILS to the same runway is of course redundant. I think we have them both to train the controllers so they can provide PARs elsewhere and pilots to fly PARs where there's no ILS. I think there's a field or two in the AOR with a PAR and no ILS.

Again, the CAT III is probably geared for the contract airlift, and of course, mil aircraft that are CAT III equipped.

As far as, the PAR. I'll take the ILS, one less dummy in the loop.

[Flare]

Out of curiosity, what heavy USAF aircraft are equipped for better than CAT 1?

[CHS17]

Originally posted by nunya:

...CAT III? Buddha?

No. Cat II for us

[Crog]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

Out of curiosity, what heavy USAF aircraft are equipped for better than CAT 1?

If memory serves, the C-141 and C-9 were CAT II. As far as I know, all the CAT III-capable are painted blue and white (OK, the C-40's are all white).....

Interestingly, airlines with CAT III capable aircraft generally don't certify every hull and crew (Delta used to be the exception; FedEx Burt?). It's a very expensive qualification to maintain, both in the training and currency arena, as well as the aircraft MX certification. It often doesn't make financial sense for the small percentages of access gained. Also, while you might be able to land 0-0, you still need to get to the gate. I'd like to see the Jepp for ETAR's low vis taxi, which would be the real measure of how much access this approach provides.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

The CAT III ILS is being used primarily for the C-40 that is stationed there, the host aircraft at Chievres, as well as other (capable) 89th AW (i.e. VC-25)....notice how the article spells that out. Although the C-20 isn't up to par AP wise, there is plans on upgrading it to CAT III capability.

The contract airlift are also running the CAT III.

Website for ILS dummies: https://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ils-appr.htm

[Guest Pan130]

The aircraft has to have Autoland capability. The systems have to have multiple redundancy. At my old airline, we were CAT IIIB on the MD-11, we could land at 500 RVR. No hand flying those. In the -130J it is Cat II certified. Even in the airline, we would use the Autoland for Cat II approaches. You do not want to hand fly from 100RA after the aircraft was doing it better than you can.

[Guest TheBurt]

Crog,

Yes sir,All Fedex Crews are Cat III. Most of the 727-200's are IIIa and the 100's are Cat II. See you next month?

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

Interestingly, airlines with CAT III capable aircraft generally don't certify every hull and crew (Delta used to be the exception; FedEx Burt?).

FWIW, all Delta crews are still CAT III certified, unless they have less than 100 hours on the airframe.

[ 30. December 2006, 13:48: Message edited by: C-130 Hopeful ]

[Techsan]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

Out of curiosity, what heavy USAF aircraft are equipped for better than CAT 1?

I'm pretty sure that C-5s are Cat II capable.

[Guest comanche]

Originally posted by Pan130:

Even in the airline, we would use the Autoland for Cat II approaches. You do not want to hand fly from 100RA after the aircraft was doing it better than you can.

I know for CRJ's you have to disconnect the AP at 100RA and land.....no autoland(auto throttles)

[Guest rotorhead]

What is this elusive autopilot you speak of?

What is this elusive autoland you speak of?

What is this elusive ground aid to navigation/landing you speak of?

What is this elusive breaking out of the weather and seeing the landing surface you speak of?

What is this elusive runway you speak of?

What is this elusive controller you speak of?

What is this elusive approach diagram you speak of?

Night desert rolling landing, no moon, no improved surface whatsoever, no lights, taildragger, some vis until 25 ft, then zero vis below that, aircraft with dynamic rollover and translating tendency, and not knowing if you crashed the aircraft until the motion stops. Off topic? Yeah, but I had to throw it in.

Can't find your seat cushion? Check where it draws up like a tobacco sack. :D

[ 31. December 2006, 09:29: Message edited by: rotorhead ]

[Guest Grouch]

You guys have no idea how badly Rammie wanted that stupid thing up and running for the contract guys coming in there. Weather always sucks this time of year and it does help those guys from diverting especially since Rhein Mein is all gone.

[JS]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

Out of curiosity, what heavy USAF aircraft are equipped for better than CAT 1?

C-130J also

[Steve Davies]

My intention in posting this thread was to try and get an understanding of how guys in the heavy and fighter communities continue to fly and fight when the weather is socked-in.

In my tiny head I had assumed that an ILS would be far safer and more preferable to a PAR, but it occured to me that if after all this time the DoD has only just got its first CAT III ILS up and running, then for all this time you guys out in the styx and the AOR must have been using a PAR instead on days and nights when the weather was crap but the mission had still to be accomplished. Hence the question about the PAR making ILS redundant.

I had specifically wondered about C-130s and A-10s operating from FOLs in the middle of nowhere in sandstorms or thick fog (or whatever), but for obvious reasons I kept my post generic.

Has my question been answered? Yes, for the most part. Thank you.

Next thread will be on TACAN. Stay tuned.

[Stiffler]

I havent flown a PAR since pilot training....ASR's i have. I hate 'em!

Dude, Im not sure there is any brite left on the island after my deployment here. It makes Corona look like a gay. But you can rest assured Ill be drinking whats left until 9pm tonight (9am takeoff on new years is also a gay)

[FourFans]

Does the Cat III ILS REALLY add that much to Ramstein's ability to generate productive operations? Is the weather THAT bad THAT often? I've never flown there so I don't know.

FourFans

[ 04. January 2007, 22:31: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Guest Hydro130]

FourFans,

130grouch shacked it earlier; it's not for the mil ops, it's all for the contract airlift -- The combo of Rhein Main and Ramstein is the european hub like Yok is for the Pacific, and they see even lots more Polar, Evergreen, etc. With Rhein Main closed now (they had the CAT III capability there [Frankfurt]), it's all the more critical for those guys to be able to get into Ramstein.

Yes, Ramstein's WX IS very often that bad; but the diverts were usually a good deal :D

Cheers, Hydro

[FourFans]

So does Mildenhall have Cat III? I understand the WX can be rather iffy there.

Just out of morbid curiosity, how much does it cost too keep a field Cat III ready? Nunya say's it's expensive, but how expensive? Is big blue kicking out lots of money for the civie airliners, or is it a minor inconvenience? More importantly, are the civies paying are is the AF?

[Guest Hydro130]

Mildenhall has plenty of shyte WX too (welcome to England). Interestingly, if one of the two was socked in (Ramstein or Mildenhall), the other is usually just fine. Mildenhall was always the primary WX divert for all that Bosnia/Kosovo yadda yadda; workie good, last long time, other than being a PITA dragging around that much extra go-juice all the time. Not sure if all that's still standard practice for the blue-butt bugs or not...

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Steve Davies:

I had specifically wondered about C-130s and A-10s operating from FOLs in the middle of nowhere in sandstorms or thick fog (or whatever), but for obvious reasons I kept my post generic.

GPS approach. Rainfdrop some coordinates (or get some from the STS/CCT) and get 'er done. Not "legal" but sometimes (under some circumstances) it's all you've got. Hopefully there's a box & one when you break out. If not you can always hope the IR taxi/landing light will show you enough to keep it on the hard surface.

Definitely more exciting than my current job...

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

GPS approach. Rainfdrop some coordinates (or get some from the STS/CCT) and get 'er done. Not "legal" but sometimes (under some circumstances) it's all you've got. Hopefully there's a box & one when you break out. If not you can always hope the IR taxi/landing light will show you enough to keep it on the hard surface.

Definitely more exciting than my current job...